Edinburgh Rugby vs Leinster

This game has some big, big consequences for that 7th place spot. Edinburgh are one point behind Connacht - both teams have equal wins, and if Edinburgh got a losing bonus point, equal amounts of bonus points. Connacht's points differential is greater than Edinburgh's unfortunately. It seems as if Edinburgh need a draw or a win (and the Ospreys to do a bit of steamrolling) for seventh place.

For Leinster, all that's to play for is 5th or 6th place. No doubt pride will be on the line, but might this be a game to rest key Irish players with the World Cup in mind?

Edinburgh Rugby
15 Jack Cuthbert

14 Dougie Fife

13 Sam Beard

12 Andries Strauss

11 Tim Visser

10 Tom Heathcote

9 Sam Hidlago-Clyne



1 Alasdair Dickinson

2 Ross Ford

3 John Andress

4 Anton Bresler

5 Ben Toolis

6 Fraser McKenzie

7 Hamish Watson

8 Cornell Du Preez



Substitutes

16 Neil Cochrane

17 Rory Sutherland

18 Simon Berghan

19 Ollie Atkins

20 James Hilterbrand

21 Nathan Fowles

22 Jade Te Rure

23 Tom Brown



Hugh Blake is with Glasgow Warriors until the end of the season

Grayson Hart, Damien Hoyland and Jamie Farndale are currently with Scotland 7s



Not considered due to injury

Phil Burleigh (ribs), Mike Coman (head), Chris Dean (knee), ( Allan Dell (ankle), David Denton (head), Grant Gilchrist (arm), Sean Kennedy (shoulder), Tomas Leonardi (head), Stuart McInally (shoulder), Nick McLennan (groin), W P Nel (knee), Matt Scott (shoulder), Greig Tonks (hamstring)
Leinster Rugby

15. Rob Kearney
14. Zane Kirchner
13. Colm O'Shea
12. Noel Reid
11. Dave Kearney
10. Ian Madigan
9. Isaac Boss
1. Jack McGrath
2. Richardt Strauss
3. Mike Ross
4. Devin Toner
5. Mike McCarthy
6. Jordi Murphy
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Jamie Heaslip CAPTAIN

16. Aaron Dundon
17. Michael Bent
18. Tadhg Furlong
19. Tom Denton
20. Jack Conan
21. Luke McGrath
22. Jimmy Gopperth
23. Cian Kelleher



2 legends will be leaving, key figures in both teams. Would be great to see them get a try in their last game.

(If there are any other Leinster players leaving, feel free to add a highlights reel in the comments)


Discussion Points

- Should Leinster risk key players?
- How big a loss are departing players?
- Can Edinburgh get anything from this?
- How do both teams improve for next season?

Nematode wrote:
- How big a loss are departing players?
- Can Edinburgh get anything from this?
- How do both teams improve for next season?

From a Visser point of view, I think most are agreed that he really needs a move. Edinburgh aren't playing to his strengths these days and all too often he goes missing in games. His strike rate has plummeted because he gets no ball, and his tackling seems to be going backwards. He needs a change of scene big time and a good solid kick up the arse, because he needs to get back to the player we know he can be.

Edinburgh are stumbling towards the finishing line of the season and look pretty well shot. I guess thats what happens with minimal squad rotation. I can't see us getting anything from this to be honest.

How do Edinburgh improve? Bring in a backs coach. Give Strauss a P45. He has actually had some slightly better moments this season, but he is still a void of rugby playing talent, and hasn't really lived up to his billing as a solid defender. We need to find a backline which works as a unit, and that clearly involves Burleigh at 12. If it is to involve Tonks at 10 then he needs to play there consistently and frankly he needs to start playing better when he's given a shot. There is zero point in us bringing in this big Fijian monster on the wing if the ball doesn't get anywhere near him. Finally look after SHC and don't let him get injured ever!

Great thread!

Hopefully Leinster will rest their top players with not much to play for.

Even if they do though I still think they'll have too much even given their poor form - we're really running on fumes and our backline's creativity has actually got worse as the season goes on.

Leinster.

Well, it's genuine Game On for Edinburgh.  Not every season you could say that but virtually every side Leinster meet this season is a big possibility for the opposition. And its a home game for Edinburgh too.

If Edinburgh has the intent and accuracy to go at Leinster hard for 40 to 60 minutes then they may unlock that frail underbelly that Leinster have been showing all season.  Edinburgh will have to go for it though - push as much pace into the game as possible.  I really don't see Leinster ever trying to match an opponent for pace this season, so.........................

The only BUT is actually that Connacht factor.  Will Leinster be in a mood to protect as much as possible Connacht's attempts to get 7th?  Don't underplay the links or the sense of unity of purpose that might exist in getting as many Irish sides as possible into the Champions Cup.  I'm talking players here more that coaching staff.

So Leinster might be expected to cruise close to the bone for one last time in a season full of close to the bone performances (wins and losses) - or - they might actually have something less direct to interest them enough for one final genuine all out effort. If Edinburgh click they could win and it wouldn't be a major shock.

Play with pace? Leinster really have no worries there.

Scrum, maul, repeat - that's Edinburghs tactics just now. Works against lesser packs, no plan B against stronger packs.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
Edinburgh are stumbling towards the finishing line of the season and look pretty well shot. I guess thats what happens with minimal squad rotation.

Nel, Dickinson and Ford all came off before the hour mark last week! they were probably rotated in Solomons world

Seriously what could have been a great season, yes great, is turning out to be only a mediocre one because Solomons made the same mistake as last year. I'm not talking about player freshness only but a bit of rotation would have made players hungrier.. and for what its worth for me Edinburgh had their best squad of forwards since as long as i can remember.

I don't think Leinster will rotate nor go easy for this one as they can lose their 5th place and they will want to send off D'arcy on a positive note.

Well maybe I worded it wrong. Play with venom - not necessarily loose running stuff. Not my meaning - but go, go, go. Don't give Leinster a break for a good solid extended period. Keep the pressure on to see if they're interested or if they start fluffing their lines (and passes) again. I just think they're easy to be got at if teams don't give them a break.

Good thread, I really ought to do one myself one of these days. My last one was the World Cup before last I think.....

Hopefully we can have a good open game here, and get Visser over the tryline one last time in an Edinburgh jersey. I'm going along to this one, and hoping for a decent end of season crowd.

Sorry guys but where has this optimism come from? Us pump Leinster, us give Leinster the run around etc. The front line players look absolutely knackered so I'm afraid that I can't see too much coming our way from this game.
Player for player, you would expect Leinster to be better (team selections depending obviously) and I can't see us "out wanting" any team. We just lack anyone on the pitch who seems to be able to kick the players up the arse when needed.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Sorry guys but where has this optimism come from?

Um, there hasn't been any on this thread??

Jimbo will be delighted to see you just had a quote function fail!

I think SF must have stopped off at the pub on the way home from work. While I don't have any formal qualifications on "identifying positive thinking", there are definitely signs of unwarranted optimism there

InjuredYetAgain wrote:I think SF must have stopped off at the pub on the way home from work. While I don't have any formal qualifications on "identifying positive thinking", there are definitely signs of unwarranted optimism there

Is he not Irish?

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Jimbo will be delighted to see you just had a quote function fail!

I have no idea what you're talking about!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

InjuredYetAgain wrote:I think SF must have stopped off at the pub on the way home from work. While I don't have any formal qualifications on "identifying positive thinking", there are definitely signs of unwarranted optimism there

Is he not Irish?

He's Leinster too!

So both sides of the coin see no side winning this one? Call it off.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

InjuredYetAgain wrote:I think SF must have stopped off at the pub on the way home from work. While I don't have any formal qualifications on "identifying positive thinking", there are definitely signs of unwarranted optimism there

Is he not Irish?

"Is he not Irish?" Just because he stopped off at the boozer? Jeez, RDW, borderline racism/stereotyping there . I remember when mods or akela or whatever they call themselves these days, were fair minded individuals with no prejudices etc.

You're right!!!!
RDW Racialised me blatantly there! I'm off to the European Court of Human Rights with this one! I've had enough.

I just assumed you thought he was an Edinburgh fan given your comment about people needing to stop being so positive about Edinburgh's prospects!

SecretFly wrote:You're right!!!!  
RDW Racialised me blatantly there!  I'm off to the European Court of Human Rights with this one!  I've had enough.

Judging by the fact that the Welsh fans say that all the rugby authorities are based in Dublin as pary of a master conspiracy for world domination, I am guessing you won't have to go far if you want to drag RDW through the European Court of Human Rights as it must be in one of Dublin's suburbs. (I am also sure that you could crowd-fund a war chest via 606 to finance your case against Akela)

I would also have suggested that you use some of the Scottish posters who are lawyers but, if I am being honest, they spend so long on here that they don't have any time left to devote to clients.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:I would also have suggested that you use some of the Scottish posters who are lawyers but, if I am being honest, they spend so long on here that they don't have any time left to devote to clients.

That's ok. It's probably a pretty weak case I have anyway so the less detail they know the more 'honest' they'll sound when fighting my corner.

We're scrapping human rights in this country shortly so I'd make your claim sharpish.

Free advice....

There really is no need for any Edinburgh player to be huffing and puffing after AS's pre-season fitness...

But seriously, what's the point of having players in a squad if you don't think they're good enough to play? For instance, vs Zebre AS could have fielded a team like:

Sutherland, Cochrance, Andress, Atkins, Mackenzie, Leonardi, Watson, Coman, Hart, Te Rubbish, Brown, Beard, Fife, Hoyland, Tonks

I reckon they'd still have won. Even with Te Rubbish. Look at the Ospreys game! The lineup then Was 1RS, 2NC, 3WN, AB, OA, RG, HB, MC, GH, TR, DH, PB, SB, TB, 15JC

I think Alan Solomons has done some great things for Edinburgh and he should stay, but he needs a bit of help to make sure he has confidence in his squad.

Great thread, Todey.

Very difficult to know where Leinster are because the Treviso performance was one of the worst things I have ever seen from them. Their dip has been one of the most surprising things about the league this year.

Still amazes me that they let Madigan go in favour of Gopperth.

Read this morning that WP Nel has been involved with every match day squad this season - 30 games.

What an absolute machine and a testament to his robustness to not get injured. If only some of the Scotland players were like that!

Another reason why we need a better tighthead than Andress covering for him. Most positions in the squad have a comparable deputy, but Nel seemingly has to play every game because Andress is too big a step down.

Sods law says Nel gets injured for the World Cup.

Worth remembering that Nel lost his place early on in the season - Andress was picked ahead of him. It took Andress having his arse handed to him on a plate on a regular basis for Solomons to realise he should have stuck with Nel all along. From then onwards our scrum dominated.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Worth remembering that Nel lost his place early on in the season - Andress was picked ahead of him.  It took Andress having his arse handed to him on a plate on a regular basis for Solomons to realise he should have stuck with Nel all along.  From then onwards our scrum dominated.

I do remember, although in no single minute of any game did I think Andress was better than Nel. He did start promisingly though, but faded thereafter. I'd be fine with Andress as a 3rd choice option, but we need better to cover for Nel, and I'm not aware of any young tightheads coming through who would be ready (like Sutherland at loosehead this season). Any pointers Professor Maj??

I'd say send one of D'Arcy Rae or Zander Fagerson through to Edinburgh, but with Welsh and Murray going they might be needed at Glasgow.

D'Arcy is a name more suited to Edinburgh anyway!

I think either D'Arcy or Zander would fit in well here. Can't see Glasgow parting with Fagerson - it's only Edinburgh who pass decent players to Glasgow, and not the other way around.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Jimbo will would never be delighted to see you just had a quote function fail!

Great thread Nematode, since getting ousted from MF you've found a cracking use of your time.

I thought I posted this in another thread, but it seems to have gone (or more realistically I didn’t submit the response), I believe that Berghan has been promised some game time next season. I’d like to see him get a wee shot ahead of Andress and as far as I’m aware he’s SQ.

In terms of this match, I can’t see us getting a win. I think the players are probably exhausted both physically and mentally. They’ve had a long season, especially since they got to the final of the cup, and with Solly’s policy of not really understanding the other lads that turn up for training are also available for selection.

Has Berghan even featured in a match day squad this season?

We have very little to go on with him, but at 24 now is the time for him to start stepping up.

EWT Spoons wrote:I thought I posted this in another thread, but it seems to have gone (or more realistically I didn’t submit the response), I believe that Berghan has been promised some game time next season.  I’d like to see him get a wee shot ahead of Andress and as far as I’m aware he’s SQ.

Berghan has been granted a contract extension and he is a SQ tighthead. I've yet to see any positive contribution from him on the rugby field, but I'm willing to give him another shot - he's still pretty young at 24, so plenty time to develop if we feel he has the potential to do so. It would be ideal if he could make the same sort of strides as Sutherland has this season at loosehead.

I was talking to him before the final, and he says he's ready to play. He admits he's still learning his trade in propping terms but says he's ready and is desperate to get on the field. He also mentioned the like of Watson, Sutherland etc were lucky because of injuries or international call ups giving them the chance to prove their worth and they've taken them, but as called out here, Nel is indestructible and has played in nearly every game for pretty much the whole 80 mins, so he's not managed to get a shot in the team.

Seems a decent and grounded bloke.

Berghan is supposed to be 20 stones, which is the size of unit that you want in a modern front row.

We have very good eyes and ears at Canterbury rugby and he was fairly well rated there, I think. I am expecting good things from him and I hope that he gets the chances he has seen his luckier colleagues get.

George Carlin wrote:Berghan is supposed to be 20 stones, which is the size of unit that you want in a modern front row.

We have very good eyes and ears at Canterbury rugby and he was fairly well rated there, I think. I am expecting good things from him and I hope that he gets the chances he has seen his luckier colleagues get.

I've seen him in person and I'm not convinced by that information. Wiki lists Ben Atiga at 15st 10lbs, and I fear they may have mixed them both up.

Problem Berghan has is that he is tall so I wouldn't be totally surprised if he is 19-20 stones. I say problem purely from scrumming point of view.

Off topic but he also said Dicko is a beast in training and he hates scrumming against him.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Worth remembering that Nel lost his place early on in the season - Andress was picked ahead of him.  It took Andress having his arse handed to him on a plate on a regular basis for Solomons to realise he should have stuck with Nel all along.  From then onwards our scrum dominated.

RDW, i'm not sure Nel was 100% fit at the beginning of the season.

Andress is getting a lot of flak but it's not that long ago that Edinburgh had Jack freakin Gilding as 2nd choice TH.

Andress is certainly light years better than the worst rugby player in the history of the world, but he's really a 3rd choice squad player at best I reckon.

In his final interview before leaving Edinburgh, Tim visser was asked what aspect of his game has improved the most during his time at Edinburgh.

He said "my defence, I think I'm quite a physical player under Solomons now"

Lol we haven't seen evidence of that

That's priceless. Surely he was being sarcastic??

Dead serious.

If stats are correct he made a grand total of 0 tackle against the Drags when McInally had 18!

RDW_Scotland wrote:In his final interview before leaving Edinburgh, Tim visser was asked what aspect of his game has improved the most during his time at Edinburgh.

He said "my defence, I think I'm quite a physical player under Solomons now"

Yous have it all wrong.  Yous have wilfully misunderquotestood him!   What he means is that he's learned how to Defend under Solomons but has chosen not to use it until he leaves Edinburgh.  He's sent it along to Harlequins by courier to be settled in already when he joins it later.

Madigan at 10, hopefully, now that Leinster are safely ensconced in that Top 6. Time to see him playing where Ireland need him since Leinster have little to gain or lose.

If the Leinster players 'respond' to Madigan at 10 then it's probably also proof that they didn't want auld poor Jimmy there in the first place............... thus a suspected go-slow, tools-down, walk-out kind of mentality in camp.

If that even had a degree of truth about it, I'd be seriously annoyed at the Leinster boys for treating an honest fella with a great turn of pace so shabbily - and sacrificing (or sabotaging) a potentially better season in the process!

A good 10 only works when the players around him respond.  If they leave him on his own, he's exposed and looks like a lone Turkey longing for Christmas.

So we'll see does Madigan look as lonesome as often Goppeth did.

When I've seen Gopperth or Madigan play for Leinster (more in the first half of the season), I've been very impressed.

What's gone wrong/is wrong with them?

Things have gone wrong everywhere.  You can't simply say if Gopperth or Madigan were playing better, all would be well.

Nope.  For whatever reason, Leinster as a team have just stopped playing - perhaps there is WC reasons in there somewhere.  Hard to prove that though, as Munster and Ulster are still going reasonably strongly, even at times even impressively - but I do feel it's more a go-slow for some reason with Leinster than even saying it's MOC or the players not knowing what to do anymore.  I think MOC himself doesn't know what to do but probably suspects he's the victim of a team of players with other things on their minds.  It's difficult to coach players that don't seem to want to try.