Ulster 2015/2016

First topic message reminder :

Thought i would give ol' GC a helping hand and try and get Ulster types looking inward at what has been a tricky season and looking forward to next season and how we should improve. Dont have time to put down all my own theories but will do so later. This thread is a matawalu free zone btw!

I know it's not going to be a popular thing to say but I'm no fan of Van Der Merwe. I really don't see what it is he brings to the party. Granted he's a good player but I can never help but feel he punches below his weight on too many occasions. Maybe it's just me and I'm a gobtomkite.

I'd be very disappointed if Piatau wasn't going to arrive at Ulster but not entirely surprised. He's a phenominal talent and would be desireable to any team on the planet but he has fitted well into the Wasps way of playing. I'd be looking a heck of a lot more than George Smith to make up for losing him.

Best lineout forward in the Champions Cup this year I think Pete.

But in many ways while we always used to say 'He does the unseen work" about locks and meant it as a compliment thats changed as people judge players on their ball carrying more and more.

I just feel with Henderson, Tuohy and now Treadwell he's a good foil to some of the more glamorous players we can have.

Pete330v2 wrote:Maybe it's just me and I'm a gobtomkite.

Yes it's just you, you're a gobtomkite.

Yes I'm a big VdM fan. He's consistently been Ulster's best forward since he arrived. Best lineout stats in the League last year too, a key component of a solid scrum and thankfully largely injury free. If he was IQ he would probably be in the Ireland side.

As for George Smith rather than Piutau - really! If I wanted a backrow swap I would consider the uncapped Nathan Hughes who at least is the same age as Piutau, but no way would I take a 36 year old has-been on a one year contract over the world class Charlie boy.

wow, wow, wow!

What the heck are you doing coming on here 'woohoo'ing about a contract extension for Franco '1cap' Van Der Merve, without considering what it might mean!

Losing Williams, getting no NIQ replacement for him, and keeping VDM would be horrendously bad for us.

Please please please lets hope this is as a result of Dublin being leniant with us.

I was just thinking how smart Les Kiss was in handling Best's minor injury last week.

He gave Rob Herring a start to push his claims for Ireland, he gave Best a rest even though he probably was fit to start- but he still brought Best on even though the game was won so that the crowd could give him a standing ovation.

clivemcl wrote:wow, wow, wow!

What the heck are you doing coming on here 'woohoo'ing about a contract extension for Franco '1cap'  Van Der Merve, without considering what it might mean!

Losing Williams, getting no NIQ replacement for him, and keeping VDM would be horrendously bad for us.

Please please please lets hope this is as a result of Dublin being leniant with us.

How many caps does Nick Williams have?

clive, when Ulster signed Treadwell I thought he was the replacement for Franco and we wouldn't be allowed to keep him. Our locks would be Henderson, Treadwell, Tuohy and Stevenson. Now Stevenson is gone and Van Der Merwe is staying we look really strong there.

I've been saying for years that we need a back row but what if the IRFU were to say; you can play Henderson in the back row if you like, and you can play Payne at fullback if you like? Suddenly we'd be replacing Nick Williams with a big ball carrier and letting young players come through in the centre.

Les Kiss has shown he is willing to show faith in our Academy players. If he thinks our back rows are good enough that is a massive vote of confidence in the likes of Stephen Mulholland.

Would I be happier if we signed somebody? Yes, but its actually riskier than promoting from within because you might pay big money for someone who isn't committed. If the talent is there, promote it.

Toulon brought in Wilkinson who was as good as Pienaar has been for us. Then they brought in Quade Cooper who is leaving to play Australia Sevens on their dime. Wilkinsons heart was in Toulon. Coopers heart is in Australia. Nothing wrong with that; Toulon should have done their research better.

I feel sorry for Williams whose heart is in Ulster, but Van Der Merwe is as committed as him and I'm excited that Henderson might play 6.

Now we just have to wait and see what happens with Piutau and Payne.

I'm not saying VDM hasn't been decent for us. I'm just saying if it means starting either Wilson or Mulholland at 8 in the Champions Cup next year, then it most definately will go in the 'failure' category in my books.

If Dublin have allowed us leeway - then brilliant. In my books we NEED an NIQ backrower more than anything else.

I'm with Clive, if we're holding on to VDM at the expense of a good backrow signing then I an very underwhelmed. I may not be a huge VDM fan but I am definitely not ever going to knock him. He is a solid player but not anything spectacular IMO.
If we don't get a very good backrower I'll be more than widdled off at Bryn. If the IRFU have decided to show some flexibility then happy days.

Here's the team I want to see next year; all players under contract at Ulster already.

1. Kyle McCall
2. Rory Best (c)
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Franco van der Merwe
5. Kieran Treadwell
6. Iain Henderson
7. Chris Henry
8. Robbie Diack
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Jared Payne
14. Charles Piutau
15. Stuart Olding

16. Rob Herring 17. Callum Black 18. Rodney Ah You 19. Dan Tuohy 20. Sean Reidy 21. Paul Marshall 22. Luke Marshall 23. Tommy Bowe

It's really, really not a bad team on paper lads. Gilroy, Wilson, Cave, Lutton etc. potentially not making the 23. Tommy Bowe not making the team. But in a sense I agree with you- those are the only three decent back rows at the club. We don't need to be paying for NIQ backs. Look at our representation in the Ireland squad- 5 backs, two front rows. We need second rows and back rows and the IRFU should realise we have no-one but Henderson utting their hand up there.

What I would do is what rodders said. Exchange Piutau for back row and move Payne back to 15. Wasps have a quality back row and need a fullback. We should be talking to them a lot.

I think we might have gotten a few brownie points for moving Payne to centre and with Les Kiss as our coach I think the IRFU have a lot of confidence to allow us more independence so there's no reason to assume we've heard the last of the transfer dealings just yet. Keep faith.

How would Henderson at blindside fit with what the Ireland team needs? Off the top of my head, I can think of far more quality Irish blindside options than locks

Notch wrote:Here's the team I want to see next year; all players under contract at Ulster already.

1. Kyle McCall
2. Rory Best (c)
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Franco van der Merwe
5. Iain Henderson
6. Robbie Diack
7. Chris Henry
8. George Smith
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Luke Marshall
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Jared Payne

16. Rob Herring 17. Callum Black 18. Rodney Ah You 19. Dan Tuohy 20. Kieran Treadwell 21. Paul Marshall 22. Stuart Olding 23. Craig Gilroy

Fixed it for you Notch!

BamBam wrote:How would Henderson at blindside fit with what the Ireland team needs? Off the top of my head, I can think of far more quality Irish blindside options than locks

Thats what I mean- there's a missing piece of the puzzle here and soon all will become clear.

The most critical I can remember Ulster fans being of our transfer policy was when Isaac Boss was released. Up in arms, people were. Great servant to the club, Irish international, bleeds Ulster and has been forced out the door. Ulster in crisis.

Few months later? Ruan Pienaar signs for Ulster.

Ulster are not letting players like Lewis Sevenson and Nick Williams leave because they don't have the money to retain them; not when you see them going to Exeter and Cardiff as opposed to Saracens or Toulon, and not when you see guys like Piutau coming in. Ulster have big plans for the forwards next season and we're beginning to get clues as to what they are

Range of hypotheses based on what the missing piece of the puzzle might be;

1) If Piutau stays at Wasps, that money is freed up. Someone else might get it.
2) If Piutau doesn't come, his NIQ place is freed up. Someone else might get it.
3) Ulster have a bigger budget than we expected. They can afford to pay off some currently contracted NIQ players we didn't think would leave.
4) Ulster have more NIQ places than we expected. They can sign another NIQ player for next season because the IRFU is being lenient
5) Ulster have more freedom to play players wherever they want than we expected. They can move Henderson to the back row and replace him with a lock.

I don't understand either, thats why I'm so excited. I didn't understand how the hell we got Pienaar to sign up and that was the biggest news round my house since the Good Friday Agreement.

I believe the balance of probability is that one of these MIGHT be correct.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:Here's the team I want to see next year; all players under contract at Ulster already.

1. Kyle McCall
2. Rory Best (c)
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Franco van der Merwe
5. Iain Henderson
6. Robbie Diack
7. Chris Henry
8. George Smith
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Luke Marshall
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Jared Payne

16. Rob Herring 17. Callum Black 18. Rodney Ah You 19. Dan Tuohy 20. Kieran Treadwell 21. Paul Marshall 22. Stuart Olding 23. Craig Gilroy

Fixed it for you Notch!

Same thing; when we let BJ Botha leave, Jerry Flannery said he thought yes, Munster have got one over on Ulster. Soon after that Ulster signed John Afoa.

I'm just saying there's a rabbit in somebody's hat and it's going to be pulled out when Ulster need a good news story.

George Smith is 35. My vote goes for Piutau please!

There may well be a rabbit, but it may be one that will split opinions.

Coming back to what Notch said about Jordi Murphy. Perhaps Nucifora has managed to get an exchange done after all. Payne to Leinster. Murphy to Ulster. Ulster decide to re-sign VDM. Piutau still coming.

How would we feel about that one?

O'Brien signed till 2019, Heaslip till 2017, Conan... not sure actually.

Hmmm.... not sure.

Murphy would still leave Ulster light in terms of ball carrying and depth wise in terms of cover during international windows if he gets a call up

I think Ulster need an Aussie/Kiwi or even an English player who won't be away in the Autumn etc with Henry and Henderson to give a bit more to the backrow and with McCloskey away too can punch a few holes in defences, which is what Williams gives even at his worst

For Ulster to kick on a decent IQ and quality NIQ are needed to provide decent depth and quality so that we don't see a huge drop like we have become used to in recent years when the front line players aren't available

Apparently we are "working on" Nick's replacement:

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/rugbyunion/2016/01/26/news/ulster-working-on-williams-replacement-395309/?

Talk on T'Other Forum is that whether Hendo plays mostly at 6 for Ulster may be down to whether the IRFU want him to shift to a central contract. He's currently contracted to Ulster until 2018.

One thing's certain, we need at least two backrowers, hopefully one at least being top class.

Payne for Murphy? Are you nuts?!

Munster can have Cave for CJ Stander.

rodders wrote:Payne for Murphy? Are you nuts?!

Munster can have Cave for CJ Stander.

I know you aren't making a serious suggestion, but I only mentioned Payne because he's out of contract. If there were to be an exchange, does it not have to be with out of contract players?

I'm starting to question the whole NIQ reduction thing guys. I wonder if you can help. Struggling on google to find much news or any sort of official statement about it when it was introduced.

I can only find a few news articles where people refer to it, but see little evidence of the official word on it.

My question is... if the IRFU never formally announced the revision, maybe that's because it wasn't in stone, but rather a target or goal. Perhaps if they felt Ulster justified keeping one extra, they were willing to be flexible?

clive, the IRFU never set hard and fast rules and they like to handle everything in a very cloak and dagger way so they have the freedom to move the goal posts without seeming inconsistent whenever it's useful to do so.

They make it up as they go along.

Piutau will quite possibly block an IQ 15 - Payne or Olding. No problem. We can seemingly keep Franco because they're hoping a couple of the young lads will surpass him soon and Ireland needs more (decent) locks.

clivemcl wrote:There may well be a rabbit, but it may be one that will split opinions.

For the first time, there will be a disagreement between two people who support Ulster

If you haven't noticed the collective noun for us Irish rugby fans should be an 'argument'.

An 'argument' of Irish Rugby fans

Here's hoping the IRFU still see us as a lesser Connacht. Piutau, Pienaar, Franco AND Pocock. And sure, for the sake of 1 year - two projects - Ludik AND Herbst.

That'll do nicely!

1. Kyle McCall
2. Rory Best (c)
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Franco van der Merwe
5. Dan Tuohy
6. Iain Henderson
7. Chris Henry
8. David Pocock
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Stuart Olding
13. Stuart McCloskey
14. Charles Piutau
15. Jared Payne

16. Rob Herring 17. Callum Black 18. Rodney Ah You 19. Kieran Treadwell 20. Robbie Diack 21. Paul Marshall 22. Tommy Bowe 23. Louis Ludik

I'm not sure about Pocock. He's an activist against climate change.

If there is one thing we need in Ulster it's global warming!

rapidsnowman wrote:I'm not sure about Pocock. He's an activist against climate change.

If there is one thing we need in Ulster it's global warming!

Never thought I'd see a snowman advocating global warming!

You haven't seen frozen?

(I have 3 daughters)

Love how you felt then need to defend yourself before even finishing the comment- just, like, Let It Go snowman!

So I see Earls signed an IRFU contract in the end. All this media leaking stuff about talking to other clubs is starting to irritate me.

It doesn't quite feel like the rugby way things should be done. Bit too footballish.

So who still has contract to get sorted? Zebo, Payne, Henshaw, Healy, Jordi Murphy?

Expect to hear about them all being 'in talks with X, Y and Z' very soon.

There isn't going to be a reduction in NIQ according to geoff. Apparently IRFU were prepared to allow Ulster the quota as it stands, but not the other two Provinces. Then the other two kicked up, and the whole reduction thing was dropped. That's if I remember right. Maybe geoff will come out of retirement and tell us?

rapidsnowman wrote:You haven't seen frozen?

(I have 3 daughters)

Be honest you watched it alone, and loved it

I was at the Dentist and got frozen - does that count?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35425375

Director of Rugby Les Kiss says Ulster will announce a couple of big-name signings in the next few weeks.

Speaking on BBC's Ulster Rugby Extra, Kiss revealed they had completed their recruitment for next season.

He also said rivals clubs had recently targeted some of his key players, and stressed the importance of Ulster retaining their Irish talent.

Fit-again Stuart Olding will start in the centre for Ulster this Saturday against Treviso.

The 23-year-old - described by Kiss as one of the most gifted players he's seen - had been out for 10 months with a knee injury, and made his playing comeback last week for Ulster A against Bristol.

He's also full of praise for Mark McCall. Says he's done a brilliant job and compliments Saracens as a 'compelling' team to watch!

Les Kiss says Franco staying is fantastic, great club man, very professional, helps the young players. Kieran Treadwell, a "very good signing", and Rodney Ah You are coming in. They've signed pretty much every current player they wanted to retain and there are a couple more announcements to be made in the coming weeks. He hopes people will be excited about these announcements, says Ulster are excited.

Last word from Kiss? "Watch this space."

Stuart Olding will be playing in the centre against Treviso unless there is an injury or a withdrawal or something- selection finalised today. They showed the try Olding scored last week and he took a beauty of a line. Kiss describes him as a player who can play 10, 12, 13 or 15- and he thinks he could do a job at 9 or 14 . Says that he is a very similar player to Jared Payne in terms of tactical acumen and skill set and outright states is one of the most exciting talents he's seen since he came to Ireland. Agrees with Brian O'Driscoll that Olding can be Ireland's first-choice centre for the next few years.

Just a wee question. Why is Henderson always being discussed only as a lock or a blind-side? Couldn't he play no.8?

I'm much happier. Kiss has a way of reassuring me when he talks.

scrummy wrote:Just a wee question. Why is Henderson always being discussed only as a lock or a blind-side? Couldn't he play no.8?

Like a lot of players he has the talent to play in a few different positions and 8 is certainly one of them.

Here's a few reasons I think why it's never mentioned.

1) Henderson is one of the strongest players in the Ireland squad. All of that strength is used in the scrums, where the locks are bound for the duration of the scrum and the flankers are bound for most of it, usually- the number 8 is the first player to stop pushing because he needs to focus on controlling and playing the ball. We want to maximise Henderson's time pushing.
2) The lineout- normally in the line out the number 4, 5 and 6 are the main jumpers with 5 in the middle and 6 at the tail. However this is from being a universal truth and in recent years we've seen guys like Harinordoquy and Parisse who play 8 being massively effective in the air on the opposition throw. However both Ulster and Ireland tend to use blindsides as the main lineout forwards and it's been that way since Simon Easterby was still playing. For Ulster, our version of Easterby is Robbie Diack at 6.
3) 6 is a destructive role, 8 is a creative role. Again this is a generalisation, but it's a useful generalisation. The number 8 is expected to be the main playmaking forward. He spends a lot of time in open play and is meant to be a pivot around which other players can flow. The 6 is free to play much more aggressively and get into smashing every ruck whilst the 8 is part of the defensive line or waiting to carry the ball. Henderson is a deadly rucker and is most effective when he's giving the pillar or scrum-half an object lesson in brute force and ignorance. However, Henderson is also a deft offloader so he fits the bill there too, with practice! It's also worth noting that for Ireland, Peter O'Mahony at 6 has been the main playmaking forward on the pitch so again; generalisation.

I hope I'm getting across just how good Henderson is, but also how his strengths are suited to a very traditional 'bruiser' role at flanker or in the second row. That frees up someone else to be a bit more refined at number 8!

Do you know I feel so much better after reading Kiss' comments. I'm very excited.

I have always said that Olding was the most exciting talent I've seen since BOD arrived on the scene, I must have a mind like Les Kiss   . Had Stuart not been so unlucky with injuries I am sure he'd have been slicing defences apart at the RWC. Fingers crossed for him that he has a long run of playing in white and in green.

Right, I can't take it anymore, GEOOOOOOFFFFFFF!!!!!!!

Where's Geoff, I want names and I want them today

Pete330v2 wrote:Right, I can't take it anymore, GEOOOOOOFFFFFFF!!!!!!!

Where's Geoff, I want names and I want them today

Its like Christmas for you Pete

I think geoffs like Beetlejuice, you have to say his name three times

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Right, I can't take it anymore, GEOOOOOOFFFFFFF!!!!!!!

Where's Geoff, I want names and I want them today

Its like Christmas for you Pete

I think geoffs like Beetlejuice, you have to say his name three times

I'd say it as many times as he likes if he'd just throw us a scrap
I am indeed like my son on Christmas Eve

Speaking of being a kid on Christmas Eve...
We are playing some lovely rugby, Williams is in fine destructive form, our squad players are playing out of their skin, we've 'discovered' McCall, We are looking at a six nations period with Cave, Chris Henry AND Olding available in centers.

Dare we hope??? SUFTUM!

Even if we don't get any players back from Ireland in the backs, this is pretty darn good! I know some would like to see Olding at 10, but Kiss has said he will be in center - this week at least!

9. Pienaar
10. Humphries
11. Gilroy
12. Olding
13. Cave
14. Scholes
15. Ludik

Bench: Marshall, Arndold

We're definitely hitting some fine form heading into the disruption of the 6 nations and fingers crossed the form will have filtered throughout the squad. Lets hope it leads to some good times in the Pro12 and a nice home playoff place.

scrummy wrote:Just a wee question. Why is Henderson always being discussed only as a lock or a blind-side? Couldn't he play no.8?

That's not a wee question at all!

Firstly Henderson isn't always being discussed only as a lock or 6, I've raised the question about him at 8 before! He played 8 at school and u20 level so is well accustomed to the role. At senior level the position is pivotal to the team, and especially Ulster given the relative weakness elsewhere - they probably can't afford to have an inexperienced player there.

Rob Penney wanted to play POM at 8 because his reasoning was that the 8 gets more ball and you want your best player seeing as much of the ball as possible. Henderson is good at lock but is learning that role and it doesn't utilise his pace often (although Ireland need him there). He is better at 6 because he is aggressive in defence and powerful in rucks, but just because he is good in both positions shouldn't preclude him from playing 8 where he would see more of the ball in attacking situations.

It is about team balance and the players alongside him but I'd like to see him get the ball as much as possible.

The thing is I think the 6 gets as much ball nowadays. Now, the position he's really unsuited for is Seven.

I think Hendo could do a job at 10 for goodness sake
He's an awesome player with one hell of a future ahead of him and I would love to see him get a run at No.8. As Aukster said we want Hendo getting as much ball as possible.

On other matters t'other forum are reporting that one signing we've made is that of a Leinster backrower. They've all agreed that it's Dominic Ryan and the guy in the know hasn't said yeah or nay.

Good signing that, plays 6, 7 and 8