Under 20's world championship - general discussion thread

[blackcanelion]

First topic message reminder :

I'm posting this even though I know there are Irish, English and Scottish threads. My idea is to give a thread that allows for all the games and teams to be discussed (that's not to downplay the other posts which have value in their own right).

To get the ball rolling here are some thoughts on the NZ team and chances in this tournament.

1. I think the NZRFU are starting to take this tournament more seriously. Not having won it in three years means you ask hard questions. I think it's obvious that we been way behind the eight ball in preparation compared to European teams for a while. It looks like they are taking steps in the right direction.

2. The coaching set up looks good. All three coaches are successful ITM cup coaches and have significant mana (i.e. they are all ex All Blacks).

3. The team has had better preparation than in the past. This team has actually played together in a few matches. In the past they've probably come in under prepared (there are no equivalents of the 6 nations age group competitions).

4. The teams pretty useful. There are players that aren't available (e.g. McKenzie and Lenart-Brown playing for the chiefs and I'm assuming national sevens player Ioane (Akira's younger brother).

5. The loss of players to league has obviously impacted this team, but it may be the union is addressing this with the countries first super 15 under 19 squads being set up in Auckland and Wellington. It's hard to say if it will stem the flow  as the NRL generates more TV revenue than either the Top 14 or Premiership. The clubs currently contract 16 professional under 19 squads) so there is a big pull. The Players who likely would have made it, include Asofa Solomona (could have been the superstar of this tournament).

6. It's difficult to determine the chances of this team based on 1 game. All we can say is that they were significantly better than the Scottish side they faced. I understand the Scottish side was understrength and given that this isn't the strongest NZ side we probably wont get a decent idea until after the game against Ireland.

7. It looks to have a side that play to NZ's normal strengths (e.g. fitness, pace and ball skills). The question remains how they cope if/when a team can control, possession, position and the pace of the game (e.g. England or SA). I'm not entirely convinced we adequate in the tight 5. If someone someone controls the set piece, has a good mauling game and can slow down the ruck we will be vulnerable.

All that aside I feel reasonably happy with our chances.

So. How do you feel about your team's progress so far and their chances looking forward.

[profitius]

Ireland 0 - 22 Wales. Half time. I'm glad now its not on tele!


England bullying the Boks. They just look too good so far in every department.

[Cumbrian]

I can't see it being as one sided in this half, it is about keeping the boks at arms length I think.

[Mcgavin Sean]

Wales u 20 leading Ireland u 20 by 22 to nil at halftime in Viadana

[Cumbrian]

Christ, they don't get any smaller do they???

[Cumbrian]

That is boneheaded, you've cleared after lots of pressure and come up with a late hit. Ridiculous.

[HammerofThunor]

Just remembered about this. Decent lead

[Cumbrian]

You could argue that England are lucky to get into this round, but you can't argue that they look good to be in the final. 28-6 is a bit of a tuning.

[Cumbrian]

Ref was itching to card an English player, Tompkins is quite unlucky IMO.

[HammerofThunor]

Just seen the 'high' tackle. Bizarre, the guy was almost on the floor.

[Cumbrian]

Weird finish, final score flatters the Boks somewhat.

[The Saint]

SA 4kg heavier? That's bigger than the Wales pack! Goes to show it's not always about size I guess.

Has Wales U20 game finished yet? I can't find the score anywhere...

[The Saint]

Harsh lesson dished out to France by the Baby Blacks... But ask anyone that's beat them at this level, it takes a good few years of trying and some thrashings along the way!

Appart from the tight 5 it was truly men against boys tonight. The difference in handling skills and power is huge. That kiwi number 8 looked impressive and their flyhalf very good as well.

How many times have you faced them at U20 level? I can't remember it being many times. Wales, England and SA have played the quite often for some reason (probably to do with the seeding somehow?) and got stuffed a lot of times - but eventually beat them.

[Cumbrian]

Finished 22-12 according to the WRU Twitter account.

[The Saint]

Not that convincing then.

[whocares]

Harsh lesson dished out to France by the Baby Blacks... But ask anyone that's beat them at this level, it takes a good few years of trying and some thrashings along the way!

Appart from the tight 5 it was truly men against boys tonight. The difference in handling skills and power is huge. That kiwi number 8 looked impressive and their flyhalf very good as well.

How many times have you faced them at U20 level? I can't remember it being many times. Wales, England and SA have played the quite often for some reason (probably to do with the seeding somehow?) and got stuffed a lot of times - but eventually beat them.

You are right. Dont recall france playing NZ at this level in the last 4 years. France rarely make the SF as well. The team from the SH we play the most tends to be Australia.

[Guest]

Much better performance from the junior All Blacks today. More accurate than they were against Ireland. Whocares, you may know this, are many of the French lads in professional club set ups?

[whocares]

Much better performance from the junior All Blacks today. More accurate than they were against Ireland. Whocares, you may know this, are many of the French lads in professional club set ups?

Hi Ebop, most belongs to professional clubs albeit still play in various development competition (espoirs) and hardly train with the pros. Only Marchant (the hooker) has significant experience at the highest levels (10+ games in top 14 for toulouse). Appart from him , I think Ramos , Bonneval (toulouse), roudil (la rochelle), meret and blance (bordeaux) had a couple of games in the t14 (and/or european challenge club).

[Guest]

Thanks whocares, appreciate that info. Sounds a bit similar to our junior ABs. From what I gather, most are studying at uni, builders and pool painters but belong to various rugby academies around the country. There may be others, but I think Moli, Black, Ioane and Li are the ones that play in ITM cup or Super Rugby. Will be a big challenge against England as they seem more professionally developed overall. I think that's the case, or is the impression I have anyway, I'm probably wrong.

[Hood83]

Thanks whocares, appreciate that info. Sounds a bit similar to our junior ABs. From what I gather, most are studying at uni, builders and pool painters but belong to various rugby academies around the country. There may be others, but I think Moli, Black, Ioane and Li are the ones that play in ITM cup or Super Rugby. Will be a big challenge against England as they seem more professionally developed overall. I think that's the case, or is the impression I have anyway, I'm probably wrong.

I could be wrong but I don't think that's true. Looking at England's squad I can't see anyone who has got regular or even that sporadic Prem experience. Most are in professional set ups so in that sense you;re probably right, but in terms of development via game-time they're probably not any further on.

Maybe it's the case that none of the squad has the level of experience as someone like Li or Ioane, but more have the experience of a professional set up than the rest of the AB squad?

[HammerofThunor]

Well most of the All Black U20 are involved in an academy, which is the same for the England players. A few have LV cup games.

[LondonTiger]

The English lads are all in education as well, that being a key part of the Academy process.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I don't think either nation can get one up suggesting they're not as developed/professional as the other.

NZ and England are the best two U20 sides since the competition began. It should be a great final with the NZ pack much stronger than last year.

[lostinwales]

One of the latest news pieces on the official website makes me giggle. Its an interview with a NZ commentator with his totally unbiased opinion of the two sides...

[Guest]

Willie Los'e. He was infamously miffed when Boca Juniors didn't bring their senior side to NZ for an exhibition match. He's enthusiastic, I like him. He is a kiwi after all so it's not surprising he focused on NZ. The more articles I read, the more I get the impression (having not seen England U20s play), is that they will maul/scrum the heck out of the junior ABs and no doubt win.

[lostinwales]

Willie Los'e. He was infamously miffed when Boca Juniors didn't bring their senior side to NZ for an exhibition match. He's enthusiastic, I like him. He is a kiwi after all so it's not surprising he focused on NZ. The more articles I read, the more I get the impression (having not seen England U20s play), is that they will maul/scrum the heck out of the junior ABs and no doubt win.

I don't have a problem with it, and he may be right about the final. It's just the 'so and so could be great, and such and such is just fantastic'. then 'Oh yeah the other team, well England improved from their game against France'. Its funny.

[blackcanelion]

Roll on tomorrow. My feeling is England go in as favorites. Forwards win matches, backs determine by how much.

My expectation is England will play a narrow game, driving, kicking for touch or up and unders, mauling from lineouts and look to put pressure on NZ. If they get a lead they'll move it wide.

My expectation for NZ is to move to drive and move ball wide, or kick for distance.

I think the ref will have a huge impact on this game. Primarily because it's the second set of game under the new rules. Teams are adjusting on the run, as it were. England's lineout maul could be defused, as the French was, if it's ruled illegal. We could see players penalised or binned for high tackles or trying to reclaim kicks. This could determine the outcome of the match. I think the scrum may favour the defending team, the hooker has to actually hook, which means 7 against 8.

I wait with anticipation.

[blackcanelion]

Just on another note, all of the NZ backline with the exception of half back and at least one of the forwards played union at school (albeit 1 played for the Australian school boys). At least one kiwi forward also played rugby (Asofa Solomona). I think there's a few union boys in the Aussie team as well (Tepai Maroa was also schoolboy union star). They'd all qualify for this years competition (Solomona could play next year as well).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpXVjGPtm8g

[HammerofThunor]

So only one kiwi forward played rugby at school? The rest took it up in the last few years? Is that normal or is rugby declining in school in New Zealand?

As for favourites, given that New Zealand comfortably beat the team that beat England and are unbeaten, I'd probably have them as favourite. Mind you this is a big and well drilled England side.

[Sgt_Pooly]

It's tough to pick a favourite but I'd perhaps side with NZ. England tend to get better through competitions so hopefully we'll take it up a gear.

[Chunky Norwich]

No live tv coverage of Wales v Ireland
No live tv coverage of Wales v Australia

Thanks World rugby. Great job.

[Hood83]

Willie Los'e. He was infamously miffed when Boca Juniors didn't bring their senior side to NZ for an exhibition match. He's enthusiastic, I like him. He is a kiwi after all so it's not surprising he focused on NZ. The more articles I read, the more I get the impression (having not seen England U20s play), is that they will maul/scrum the heck out of the junior ABs and no doubt win.

I don't have a problem with it, and he may be right about the final. It's just the 'so and so could be great, and such and such is just fantastic'. then 'Oh yeah the other team, well England improved from their game against France'. Its funny.

Haha, yeah i thought exactly the same. He was asked to comment on two teams, he managed one. But fair enough I suppose.

[Hood83]

When we've beaten the ABs at this level our packs have been, if not bigger, a lot more powerful/developed. I think that gap has narrowed this year which leads me to believe the ABs are favourites. Our back-line isn't vintage and frankly even if it was I'd expect it to be worse than an average year's intake for the ABs.

[The Great Aukster]

No live tv coverage of Wales v Ireland
No live tv coverage of Wales v Australia

Thanks World rugby. Great job.

Joke competition - pathetic

[Poorfour]

I think it's hard to call. England's loss to France and France's demolition by NZ would suggest NZ, but England had lost a key player and had had to fly out a replacement midweek. Plus, French. And England's performance versus South Africa was much improved against one of the tournament favourites.

So I suspect it's all pretty finely balanced.

[Chunky Norwich]

No live tv coverage of Wales v Ireland
No live tv coverage of Wales v Australia

Thanks World rugby. Great job.

Joke competition - pathetic

This year has been in terms of off the field. Wales v Japan live. Wales v Aus 5th place - no coverage.

[No 7&1/2]

Thet ve got the European games on so understandable.

[Chunky Norwich]

Thet ve got the European games on so understandable.

s4c had all of Wales group games. Now their in the 5th place game, they don't have it.

Pretty poor.

[No 7&1/2]

Probably just got the rights for the highlights.

[The Saint]

Is their coverage of SA vs France? Isn't it usually top 4 that get priority anyway? In the past most of the other games have been available on the red button.

[Chunky Norwich]

Is their coverage of SA vs France? Isn't it usually top 4 that get priority anyway? In the past most of the other games have been available on the red button.

Italy v Samoa (for the 11th place) is live

[The Saint]

Wales 23 - 28 Australia. Sound like they had the beating of us convincingly enough. Wonder if the WRU will address the situation at U20 level or just carry on as normal.

[HammerofThunor]

England 10-3 up so far, 15 min gone.

[Sgt_Pooly]

NZ not fancying the maul, great start by England

[HammerofThunor]

Only seen three games, Wales, South Africa and New Zealand. We've had the smaller pack in every one.

Only been impressed by Jennings in one game I've seen him in. Seems very flakey (but not seen a huge amount of him)

[thomh]

Awful defence there.

[HammerofThunor]

Pretty darn shocking. But then powerful, shorter guys (he seems shorter) can often be difficult to tackle.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Ludlow should have nailed him, poor play from the 6

[thomh]

Very little shape to our attack today. Too often giving it to isolated flat players when it's screaming out for a pass behind them to the next man. Credit to NZ though as they've been a right pain at the breakdown which has contributed to that.

[Sgt_Pooly]

NZ defence has been superb

[nathan]

Well done New Zealand, did enough to null our attack which was a bit blunt anyway.

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