England's Bowling - just how good?

I don't know how many people have realised this, but in the last ten tests england have played we have bowled out the opposition for under 100 five times now - 3 times against Pakistan, 1 time against Australia, and now 1 time against Sri Lanka

I know Pakistan were a weak batting side - but still, I do not see other sides shooting them out like that, equally while Australia were out of form that is still a superb lineup. And Sri Lanka, we are told, are one of the most potent batting lineups in the world...however I feel that this shows that there a lot of flat track bullies out there, that are being exposed by England's bowling power!

Personally reckon that SA, Pakistan (with Amir and Asif) and England are the top 3 test attacks at the moment.

I cant disagree with you there Hoggy. England are well up there.

SA and England IMO are the best test bowling line-ups in the world. Hard to chose between them.

SA have the advantage in the seam department but England have the advantage with spin.

Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

MR. scotland27 wrote:Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack.

Also Albie Morkel doesn't play tests.

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack.

Also Albie Morkel doesn't play tests.

Parnell and Tsotsobe are both unproven and inconsistent. Kallis also does'nt bowl nearly as much as he used to due to injury.

Best combined test attack would be Zaheer, Anderson, Swann and Steyn in my humble opinion.

Thus, England have the better attack by virtue of having 2 members!

Unless you add Kallis as the extra batsman / bowler and then we are equal with SA. Or, you assume that something other than a swing / skiddy bowling attack is required which would then bring Morkel into play.

Sorry SA are miles ahead in the seam bowling department.

Steyn and Morkel are World Class in all conditions, whereas England seamers are hopeless in Asians conditions.

I currently have England as n°1 bowling attack in the world. For SA, Steyn and Morkel are very very good, but the back-up isn't so great. England have Swann and Anderson who are on a par with Steyn and Morkel. But then you have Stuart Broad (ranked in the top ten in the world before the previous test), Tremlett who's going from strength to strength, and really good quality back-up in Bresnan, Finn, etc. (which has been discussed on previous posts). SA just don't have that strength in depth IMO.

Pakistan would be up there too if Asif and Amir were still playing, the attack that played in England last summer was pretty formidable. No one else is close really, India have Zaheer Khan (excellent), Harbhajan (OK at the mo, no more) and a couple of other guys who are pretty inconsistent. SL have an awful attack, WI is OK, NZ pretty ordinary, Australia have some good bowlers but no spinner, Bangladesh still pretty ordinary.

So ranking bowling attacks
1. England
2. SA
3. Pakistan

then the rest

sonic

you want to predict how easily the SL batsmen will deal with Swann again?

Of the current attack, I think only Jimmy (before his resurgence so not massively relevant) and Swann (couple of tests in India where he did OK) have any experience in Asia, so not sure that's relevant really. Actually Jimmy had a very good series in India back in 2005-2006 (averaged 13 with the ball)

England have a very good attack that covers pace, swing and spin. No other country has a bowling attack that is as potent. Add to that a good batting line-up that is in amongst the runs - and you can see why they have been doing brilliantly. In the past few tests.

Personally I think Englands bowling is now stronger than SA's.

Yes Steyn and Morkel are very good but after that? Tsotsobe and Parnell arent anything great, though Parnell has huge potential! Kallis' bowling has gone down hill and though Harris sometimes holds an end up he's nothing on Swann in terms of wickets.

Though Steyn is better than Anderson when the ball stops swinging they are both lethal when it is.
Tremlett and Broad on current form are both equal to Morkel and they are very similar bowlers!
But in the third seamer our attack is far superior with Broad/Tremlett,Bresnan,Finn,Onion and Shahzad all better than Tsotsobe/Parnell.
and in the spinners Swann vs Harris speaks for itself!

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack.

Also Albie Morkel doesn't play tests.

Parnell and Tsotsobe are both unproven and inconsistent. Kallis also does'nt bowl nearly as much as he used to due to injury.

Steyn and Morkel are probably the best bowlers in the world.Left armer Parnell fits exactly in there attack.

Kallis doesn't bowl much but when he does he seems to always take a wicket or two.

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack.

Also Albie Morkel doesn't play tests.

Parnell and Tsotsobe are both unproven and inconsistent. Kallis also does'nt bowl nearly as much as he used to due to injury.

Steyn and Morkel are probably the best bowlers in the world.Left armer Parnell fits exactly in there attack.

Kallis doesn't bowl much but when he does he seems to always take a wicket or two.

I dont think Parnell is that good, he doesnt uphold the quality the other two command. KP takes wickets when he bowls but that doesnt mean he is a world class bowler.

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack.

Also Albie Morkel doesn't play tests.

Parnell and Tsotsobe are both unproven and inconsistent. Kallis also does'nt bowl nearly as much as he used to due to injury.

Steyn and Morkel are probably the best bowlers in the world.Left armer Parnell fits exactly in there attack.

Kallis doesn't bowl much but when he does he seems to always take a wicket or two.

I dont think Parnell is that good, he doesnt uphold the quality the other two command. KP takes wickets when he bowls but that doesnt mean he is a world class bowler.

KP's taken 5 wickets in 71 tests at a bowling average of over 100 compare that too Kallis 270 wickets in 145 test with a decent average of 32 aswell.
Theres no real comparison. Kallis in his pomp and even now is a very underrated bowler and certainly can't be compared to KP.

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack.

Also Albie Morkel doesn't play tests.

Parnell and Tsotsobe are both unproven and inconsistent. Kallis also does'nt bowl nearly as much as he used to due to injury.

Steyn and Morkel are probably the best bowlers in the world.Left armer Parnell fits exactly in there attack.

Kallis doesn't bowl much but when he does he seems to always take a wicket or two.

I dont think Parnell is that good, he doesnt uphold the quality the other two command. KP takes wickets when he bowls but that doesnt mean he is a world class bowler.

KP's taken 5 wickets in 71 tests at a bowling average of over 100 compare that too Kallis 270 wickets in 145 test with a decent average of 32 aswell.
Theres no real comparison. Kallis in his pomp and even now is a very underrated bowler and certainly can't be compared to KP.

I meant that you said he "sometimes" bowls so I was comparing him to a part time bowler. He was a very good bowler but back trouble has taken its toll, still a formidable batsmen though.

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack.

Also Albie Morkel doesn't play tests.

Parnell and Tsotsobe are both unproven and inconsistent. Kallis also does'nt bowl nearly as much as he used to due to injury.

Steyn and Morkel are probably the best bowlers in the world.Left armer Parnell fits exactly in there attack.

Kallis doesn't bowl much but when he does he seems to always take a wicket or two.

I dont think Parnell is that good, he doesnt uphold the quality the other two command. KP takes wickets when he bowls but that doesnt mean he is a world class bowler.

KP's taken 5 wickets in 71 tests at a bowling average of over 100 compare that too Kallis 270 wickets in 145 test with a decent average of 32 aswell.
Theres no real comparison. Kallis in his pomp and even now is a very underrated bowler and certainly can't be compared to KP.

I meant that you said he "sometimes" bowls so I was comparing him to a part time bowler. He was a very good bowler but back trouble has taken its toll, still a formidable batsmen though.

When Kallis does come on he takes one or two wickets though while KP rarely does.

Would agree ,still a world-class batter and will probably still bat for a few more years.

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

MR. scotland27 wrote:Tahir is a quality spinner, but I think Tremlett, Broad, Anderson, Shazad, Bresnan and Onions are better than Steyn, the Morkels and ??????

Pakistan would be up there were it not for unfortuneate circumstances.

I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack.

Also Albie Morkel doesn't play tests.

Parnell and Tsotsobe are both unproven and inconsistent. Kallis also does'nt bowl nearly as much as he used to due to injury.

Steyn and Morkel are probably the best bowlers in the world.Left armer Parnell fits exactly in there attack.

Kallis doesn't bowl much but when he does he seems to always take a wicket or two.

I dont think Parnell is that good, he doesnt uphold the quality the other two command. KP takes wickets when he bowls but that doesnt mean he is a world class bowler.

KP's taken 5 wickets in 71 tests at a bowling average of over 100 compare that too Kallis 270 wickets in 145 test with a decent average of 32 aswell.
Theres no real comparison. Kallis in his pomp and even now is a very underrated bowler and certainly can't be compared to KP.

I meant that you said he "sometimes" bowls so I was comparing him to a part time bowler. He was a very good bowler but back trouble has taken its toll, still a formidable batsmen though.

When Kallis does come on he takes one or two wickets though while KP rarely does.

Would agree ,still a world-class batter and will probably still bat for a few more years.

I don't think that SA are going to be able to replace him as well as they have not replaced Ntini yet, it could be a struggle for them in the future.

"I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack."

Also don't forget Friedel de Wet who played against England.

gboycottnut wrote:"I would say Parnell,Steyn,Tsotsobe,Morkel and Kallis are better than Englands attack."

Also don't forget Friedel de Wet who played against England.

His last test was against England aswell,hasn't played for SA since then.

A lot of people seem to be concentrating on the pace bowlers here, what about the spinners!

Swann vs Harris theres only one winner everytime. Yes Tahir is probably better than Harris but if played SA will weaken their batting which you have usually hated doing (bit of a Giles 2007 issue!).

That in my opinion is where England now gain the edge over SA's bowling.

I am going to phrase this is in a way to try and get my point across, which may prove tricky seen as I don't know if it makes sense myself!

I think SA have the better bowlers e.g. I would rate Steyn and Morkel above all of England's bowlers with only maybe Anderson splitting them in the pace department, but I think England have the better attack.

By this I mean that when you are playing SA (in Tests) you can almost see Steyn and Morkel off, and then target the other two bowlers. Harris isn't the most threatening and you can easily trundle him about for 3/4 an over and then the 3rd seamer whether it be Parnell or Tsostbe can be expensive and are a bit unproven at Test level. Whereas I think Eng's bowlers back each other better. Where do you attack? The only real weak link at the moment is Broad, and that is only sporadic indifference. He can be good aswell.

At the deciding factor for me is that I think England's bowling has better strength in depth than any other country in the world, and by a fair way aswell.

All this talk of Tsotsobe or Parnell being the weak link is laughable.

If you manage to see off Steyn and Morkel, most teams would have a dart at Tsotsobe or Parnell. That in turn means chances coming of their bowling.

Harris is dreadful, but Tahir is World Class.

SA attack is better and Steyn is soo good that he's almost worth 2 bowlers by himself

If, in a World Greatest XI, you saw off Glenn McGrath and Wasim Akram then I came on to bowl, you'd have a dart at me and I'd get hammered and no chances would come. Chances will only come if they are good enough to create them, I do not believe Tsostbe and Parnell are especially in Tests.

Imran Tahir is an infinitely better bowler than Harris, but seen as he hasn't played any Test matches I don't see how you can say that he suddenly makes SA a much better Test attack than England.

JDizzle wrote:If, in a World Greatest XI, you saw off Glenn McGrath and Wasim Akram then I came on to bowl, you'd have a dart at me and I'd get hammered and no chances would come. Chances will only come if they are good enough to create them, I do not believe Tsostbe and Parnell are especially in Tests.

Imran Tahir is an infinitely better bowler than Harris, but seen as he hasn't played any Test matches I don't see how you can say that he suddenly makes SA a much better Test attack than England.

Steyn>Anderson
Morne>Tremlett
Kallis + Parnell/Tsotsobe>Broad

Simple no?

SA have 4 seamers compared to England's 4. Therefore they can accommodate Tsotsobe or Parnell as they have a banker in Kallis.

sonic_boom10 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:If, in a World Greatest XI, you saw off Glenn McGrath and Wasim Akram then I came on to bowl, you'd have a dart at me and I'd get hammered and no chances would come. Chances will only come if they are good enough to create them, I do not believe Tsostbe and Parnell are especially in Tests.

Imran Tahir is an infinitely better bowler than Harris, but seen as he hasn't played any Test matches I don't see how you can say that he suddenly makes SA a much better Test attack than England.

Steyn>Anderson
Morne>Tremlett
Kallis + Parnell/Tsotsobe>Broad

Simple no?

SA have 4 seamers compared to England's 4. Therefore they can accommodate Tsotsobe or Parnell as they have a banker in Kallis.

Kallis isn't the bowler he used to be. He is getting older now and is going to have to reduce his workload as a bowler to lengthen his career as a batsman. He is no longer a banker, and is only usable in shorter spells nowadays.

Steyn > Anderson
Morkel = Tremlett
Swann > Harris/Tahir
Broad > or = Parnell/Tsostbe

But like I said earlier, I do not deny that SA may have better individual bowlers but England function better as a unit and that is why I prefer them as a bowling attack.

I think the problem here is that when we talk about the bowling attack of SA we always include Kallis as a potent wicket taker like he undoubtably was in the past. 270 wkts at an average of 32 demonstrates this. However he is not the same bowler now, and therefore should not be considered as such. In the last two years he has taken 12 wickets at an average of nearly 52 - an almost collingwoodesque level of performance. Note I am not comparing him to collingwood, just showing how much his bowling capacity has slipped due to injuries and age.

Sonic

Look at LivinginItalys post above as its one of the most valid point made so far! Kallis simply isnt the bowler he used to be. Still an excellent batsmen but not the bowler he once was.

As for the other bowlers, yes Steyn and Morkel are better than Anderson and Tremlett in most conditions but if the ball starts swinging (when both attacks are at their best) I would take Anderson over Steyn tbh. The control he now has of a swinging ball is second to none.

With the other bowlers Tahir good but you cant claim he's better than Swann yet as he hasnt played tast cricket. And I agree with most on here that Broad,Finn,Bresnan,Shahzad,Onions are probably all better bowlers than Tsotsobe/Parnell (though I'm a big Parnell fan and think he could end up outstanding!).

king_carlos wrote:Sonic

Look at LivinginItalys post above as its one of the most valid point made so far! Kallis simply isnt the bowler he used to be. Still an excellent batsmen but not the bowler he once was.

As for the other bowlers, yes Steyn and Morkel are better than Anderson and Tremlett in most conditions but if the ball starts swinging (when both attacks are at their best) I would take Anderson over Steyn tbh. The control he now has of a swinging ball is second to none.

With the other bowlers Tahir good but you cant claim he's better than Swann yet as he hasnt played tast cricket. And I agree with most on here that Broad,Finn,Bresnan,Shahzad,Onions are probably all better bowlers than Tsotsobe/Parnell (though I'm a big Parnell fan and think he could end up outstanding!).

Absolute tosh.

Steyn is a complete bowler. Look at his record all over the World. Stunning in Australia, India and Pakistan. The latter two countries are renowned for being graveyards for bowlers.

Anderson a better swing bowler? Who you kidding? Steyn swings the ball around at 150 kph and is masterful.

Comparing Anderson to Steyn is like comparing a Smart car to a Ferrari. No contest.

Well to be fair I once overtook two ferraris in my works smartcar on the autostrada (motorway) so maybe the comparison isn't as much of a no contest as you state

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5S1NAMnYKM

Just to back up LvinginItalys point

"In the last two years he has taken 12 wickets at an average of nearly 52 - an almost collingwoodesque level of performance. Note I am not comparing him to collingwood"

Collingwood got his career average down in the 40's for a couple of years, during that time he mustve been bowling an almost Kallisesque level of peformance. The majority of his career he was Trottesque though.


"Comparing Anderson to Steyn is like comparing a Smart car to a Ferrari. No contest."

Despite being far slower Anderson is almost as effective as Steyn after a slow start to his career. The last couple of years hes been consistently lethal, even with a ball and in australian conditons that he shouldnt have been able to get swing (and couldnt the first time he went there).
But you cant really argue with the ICC player ratings in this case, Steyn is comfortably top of the rankings with Anderson 2nd.

Infact looking at those England have 2(anderson), 3 (swann) and 10 (broad) ...SA 1 (steyn), 4 Morkel, then way down to 15 for Harris.

The other guys havent played enough to get rated highly yet, but England have Finn and Tremlett both avergaing well below 30, then Onions and Shazad also with good figures ( someone look them up!) and this South African chap with a ladies name.
SA have a promising spinner and a couple of seamers who wouldnt trouble the england selectors even if theyd moved here plus a knackered out legend as a 5th option.

I dont think there can be any argument that these are the best two sets of bowlers in the world at the moment, or that either is quite in the class of Warne McGrtah Lee at their best. England probably have the best frontline bowlers, but even with the new version of Kallis SA have better support options from dibbly dobblers. England have an issue with the best 5th bowling opton averaging over 70, although they survived without one for years and it better than trying to carry a broken Flintoff or another "new Botham"