Cincinnati Masters

First topic message reminder :

Full draw: http://www.protennislive.com/posting/2015/422/mds.pdf

laverfan wrote:

HM Murdock wrote:But it's not high risk.

Murdoch <> Mur-dock. Why?

One is an Antipodean press baron, the other is a soldier of fortune in the Los Angeles underground (or a VA hospital).

Nadal's play is definitely not high risk as an approach, it's mainly based on being very pragmatic and seeing what is opponents weaknesses are and exploiting them.
This means there are times he has to go high risk, against Djokovic for example in the bigger points in 2012-2014 he went for the FH DTL. He's typically only high risk in the bigger points, but not normally.

No nothing risky at all Im forced to agree Rafa's  game has always been about moonballing, 10ft behind the base line waiting for his opponents to make mistakes and that is how he has won 14 GS taking no risks whatsoever.  Why did I not see that !!!?  Lucky man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQBUM8LpPc

If you ask me, none of the big four plays high risk tennis! Fed may be more attacking but he rarely needs to take risk. Hes always hitting within the lines, its only when necessary then he takes more risk, esp when playing against fellow big four members.

I would say a young Rafa was more attacking, take a look at how he played vs Fed, Hewitt, Gonzo during 2004 on the HCs - he was standing close to the baseline, hitting more penetrating and bigger, harder FHs (easily >100 mph), painting the lines and was not afraid to move to the net to win points there. Its from 2005 onwards with his success on clay that he adopted a more defensive defence/offence game.

The big four are just that better than the rest, so they really need not play high risk tennis unless against each other.

Is ha not what I said???? he used to

He had the confidence to do so then.. the ingredient in his game that has gone missing

Did you not see his quote when playing Feds from Murdoc(K)?

LuvSports! wrote:Did you not see his quote when playing Feds from Murdoc(K)?

Yes and did YOU not see my reply...we all are aware as to how he plays FED

Ahh capitals are back.
Yup, I saw it.
But I don't see much difference at all for others.

In '11 when he kept losing to Djoko, he kept playing to the bh for some reason...
That reason was because it was his tried and tested formula and it had brought him so much success on the whole.

I think his movement, defence and spin are his greatest assets.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Rafa used to play high risk tennis. Always prepared to take the initiative he had the confidence to do so.

Have you been watching the same player that I have?

Nadals game is based on playing the percentages. It is the opposite of high risk tennis. That doesn't mean he doesn't play aggressively. His forehand rally shot is as safe as safe can be with high clearance over the net and spin to bring it in and yet it can pose problems. What he is so good at doing is playing safe to get an opponent out of position and then going for a winner. So I agree about how he was always prepared to take the initiative.

Games based on high risk tennis by definition will be less successful than games based on playing the percentages. What Nadal is so good at is making his opponents uncomfortable whist taking minimum risks himself. This doesn't mean not going for winners. Perhaps his stats on net wins are a good indicator of how his game works? He doesn't take too many risks getting to the net but when he does get there he generally wins the point. Nadal nearly always has a very high volley conversion rate

Of course that is when he is playing well...

IMO it is the other way round. It's when Rafa is low on confidence he sometimes plays more risky tennis. It's as if he doesn't trust himself to be consistent and tries to finish the point too soon.

hawkeye wrote:IMO it is the other way round. It's when Rafa is low on confidence he sometimes plays more risky tennis. It's as if he doesn't trust himself to be consistent and tries to finish the point too soon.

Of what I've seen of Rafa this year, I would somewhat disagree with this - it's more that he can't keep the low risk / low UE rallying style up for as long consistently. Ultimately, points are shorter simply because Rafa is making more errors with shots that he would not be missing if he was playing better.

^Hawkeye, good description of Rafa's game. Its to Rafa's credit that he's able to make his opponents uncomfortable and have to play out of their comfort zones. I think his game is about how to out maneuver his opponents and then either hit a winner or forces them to make errors.

Ahh capitals are back.
Yup, I saw it.

Then why ask..

HN, did they deport you back to Spain?

Did they give you any refugee help, cash in hand to leave?

I love the fact that, due to the spelling, I never once thought HM stood for "howling mad"!

HE's description of Rafa's approach is spot on. His style allows him to play low risk tennis whilst causing significant inconvenience to opponents. Its not something I personally enjoy watching but that's why he has been so successful.

Haddie-nuff wrote:No nothing risky at all Im  forced  to agree Rafa's  game has always been about moonballing, 10ft behind the base line waiting for his opponents to make mistakes and that is how he has won 14 GS taking no risks whatsoever.  Why did I not see that !!!?  Lucky man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQBUM8LpPc

This is low risk tennis ? ok Ill concede so what is high risk ?? as a comparison you understan

hawkeye wrote:IMO it is the other way round. It's when Rafa is low on confidence he sometimes plays more risky tennis. It's as if he doesn't trust himself to be consistent and tries to finish the point too soon.

Yes obviously we are watching a different player

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:No nothing risky at all Im  forced  to agree Rafa's  game has always been about moonballing, 10ft behind the base line waiting for his opponents to make mistakes and that is how he has won 14 GS taking no risks whatsoever.  Why did I not see that !!!?  Lucky man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQBUM8LpPc

This is low risk tennis ? ok Ill concede so what is high risk ?? as a comparison you understan

Something like this is higher risk: high velocity, low over the net, right on the lines.

Man, I miss this guy.

Ballistic, Nadal cant see the balls.

Delpo gone for good sadly.

HM Murdock wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:No nothing risky at all Im  forced  to agree Rafa's  game has always been about moonballing, 10ft behind the base line waiting for his opponents to make mistakes and that is how he has won 14 GS taking no risks whatsoever.  Why did I not see that !!!?  Lucky man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQBUM8LpPc

This is low risk tennis ? ok Ill concede so what is high risk ?? as a comparison you understan

Something like this is higher risk: high velocity, low over the net, right on the lines.

Man, I miss this guy

OK but I notice you say highER  which does not imply that Rafa plays low risk.
Whatever HM I am not going to labour the point.. only to tell you I miss this guy also.. but his tennis never reaped him too many rewards at the end of the day did it ?? sadly

I dont think Rafa's tennis is low risk, though I wont call it high risk either.

I always like Rafa's tennis, from his younger days right up to 2013, and also AO/FO 2014. I totally dislike the way the current Rafa plays.

Rafa does take risk, especially when back against the wall, hitting high risk shots or clutch serving to get out of trouble(s). I love his passing shots and his FHDTL, also those almost impossible saves from way out of court. He has great hands at the net and times his net approaches very well and knows how to cover his position there when at the net.
He plays a thinking game, not first strike tennis, which may explain why its tough to beat him as his opponent is being forced to think too in order to counter his game.

I feel Fed also depends on his movement and quickness to play his first strike but not high risk tennis, rushing his opponent most of the time; whilst Rafa prefers to out maneuver his opponents and beating them mentally.

Rafa does take risk, especially when back against the wall, hitting high risk shots or clutch serving to get out of trouble[/

Well there you go someone does watch the same player as me

Haddie-nuff wrote:I miss this guy also.. but his tennis never reaped him too many rewards at the end of the day did it ?? sadly

Indeed.

He's a bit like Stan in some ways - almost unplayable at his very best but when he's not 'on', his effectiveness drops sharply.

Probably a consequence of a higher risk game. The margins between making the shot and missing it are smaller. If they're not blasting winners, they don't have many other places they can go.

Away from risk averse players....


Kyrgios battered 1 & 2 by Gasquet - that may please some here.

Battle of the young guns, Zverev vs Coric looks to be heading to a third, as is andujar robredo and KA Mayer.


Few good matches. Feds Agut, Tsonga Nando, Posp Dimi, Dolgo Tomic.

HM Murdock wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:I miss this guy also.. but his tennis never reaped him too many rewards at the end of the day did it ?? sadly

Indeed.

He's a bit like Stan in some ways - almost unplayable at his very best but when he's not 'on', his effectiveness drops sharply.

Probably a consequence of a higher risk game. The margins between making the shot and missing it are smaller. If they're not blasting winners, they don't have many other places they can go.

Yes but there is a big difference in risk between a 6'6 player and a 6' one. On groundies & serve it allows you to go for it more with that safety net of being taller. 

Also for Nishi, Ferrer, Goffin, Berankis, Schwartzman etc it is harder to go for risks with less margin for error at their height.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

hawkeye wrote:IMO it is the other way round. It's when Rafa is low on confidence he sometimes plays more risky tennis. It's as if he doesn't trust himself to be consistent and tries to finish the point too soon.

Yes obviously we are watching a different player

I agree with you Haddie. The change seemed to come about sometime in 2006. Compare the rome finals in 05 and 06 for example (I know different opponents but other example can be found). I like his play much better in 05. Oddly, it also coincided with him taking more time between points. It's amazing how quick he was in 05 - barely gave the ball boys time to get back into position.

Probably a consequence of a higher risk game. The margins between making the shot and missing it are smaller. If they're not blasting winners, they don't have many other places they can go

More imo as consequenxe of his high power game and subsequent injuries

greengoblin wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:

hawkeye wrote:IMO it is the other way round. It's when Rafa is low on confidence he sometimes plays more risky tennis. It's as if he doesn't trust himself to be consistent and tries to finish the point too soon.

Yes obviously we are watching a different player

I agree with you Haddie. The change seemed to come about sometime in 2006. Compare the rome finals in 05 and 06 for example (I know different opponents but other example can be found). I like his play much better in 05. Oddly, it also coincided with him taking more time between points. It's amazing how quick he was in 05 - barely gave the ball boys time to get back into position.

Thank you gg

Potro generally played relatively low risk tennis - I would regard him as a "power grinder" style player. When he was really up against it (ie. versus a big 4 player) and was forced into risk then he could play some exciting shots but, in general, be was risk averse.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Rafa does take risk, especially when back against the wall, hitting high risk shots or clutch serving to get out of trouble[/

Well there you go someone does watch the same player as me

When his back is against the wall is when he's forced to do something that has a lower chance of coming off. So yes that's when he'll produce some of those "gasp how did he do that sort of shot". If his back is against the wall then he is really being pushed and not in control. That is the time it's either hit a shot with a small chance of coming off or do nothing at all. It proves that he can play that way if he chooses to. But it would be foolish as by playing the percentages over time a player will be more successful.

Clutch serving is a different thing. It's just serving well when it really matters.

Haddie. I was just giving my opinion. You don't have to take it personally.

I never had anything against Del Potro but never enjoyed watching him play. His style just looked like thoughtless ball bashing to me.

Haddie. I was just giving my opinion. You don't have to take it personally

Hey up who said I was now that is you taking it personally
imo to say that Rafa's game has not been without risks is ludicrous when watching the You Tube clip I posted.. He is not producing that kind of tennis now which is a result of his lack of confidence. So we are not watching the same player for sure
I also disagree with your opinion of Delpo..nothing personal

Korgi slapped like a bad boy.

Can the thread get back to Cincy and away from Nadal fans fighting as to who is more right and wrong about Nadal?

No one cares for Nadal, he is history.

Great to see gasquet school Kyrios today, that guy is such a turkey. Nice to see gasquet playing well again

Nice one Reeeeechard

You lot feck off to the GOAT thread!

Raonic getting MTO.

Lopez still sexy mf.

Play me off Jonny! du du du du dud ud dudduddududududduuu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLv4afpovvA

Jahu wrote:Raonic getting MTO.

Lopez still sexy mf.

Must be running out of females you!!

And what was that you were saying about the GOAT thread????

LK, I have fulfilled the summer quantity this year, not so quality but there is always next summer.

How was your summer? Wet or dry targeting?

About as enjoyable as Raonic's game!

Thats not bad, could of been Karlovic style.

Fed almost absurdly aggressive tonight! He was going for everything and taking it crazy early.

TRuffin wrote:Fed almost absurdly aggressive tonight!  He was going for everything and taking it crazy early.  

But missing quite a lot! His first serve percentage was as low as 27%. He will have to up his game if he doesn't want to mess up his chance of getting a win in the quarters.

hawkeye wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Rafa used to play high risk tennis. Always prepared to take the initiative he had the confidence to do so.

Have you been watching the same player that I have?

Nadals game is based on playing the percentages. It is the opposite of high risk tennis. That doesn't mean he doesn't play aggressively. His forehand rally shot is as safe as safe can be with high clearance over the net and spin to bring it in and yet it can pose problems. What he is so good at doing is playing safe to get an opponent out of position and then going for a winner. So I agree about how he was always prepared to take the initiative.

Games based on high risk tennis by definition will be less successful than games based on playing the percentages. What Nadal is so good at is making his opponents uncomfortable whist taking minimum risks himself. This doesn't mean not going for winners. Perhaps his stats on net wins are a good indicator of how his game works? He doesn't take too many risks getting to the net but when he does get there he generally wins the point. Nadal nearly always has a very high volley conversion rate

Of course that is when he is playing well...

Exactly right. No way on Earth is Rafa at his best a high risk player. Sending a ball 6 foot over the net bouncing well before the baseline and rearing up is not high risk.

I'm not afraid to admit that I tend to be fairly cautious when commenting on technical aspects of the game (being very aware that my depth of knowledge is some way below that of so many other forum members).

However .....in this case I feel about as confident as I could be in my view that Rafa's game is the absolute antithesis of high-risk. In fact, of all the top players I have watched with interest over the years, I would struggle to think of a better example of such antithesis. Even the quoted extracts from his own book reflect a similar perspective where attitude to risk is concerned.

That is not to say that Rafa's game is not very, very effective. Of course it is. The record book alone tells us that, and only a total numpty would attempt to deny it.

But outright aggression and (calculated) risk taking are widely seen as attractive & exciting traits in most ball sports, not least in one-to-one scenarios. And I think this is why some folk are keen to claim that Rafa plays high risk stuff, even if what we see from him is pretty much the total opposite !

bogbrush wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Rafa used to play high risk tennis. Always prepared to take the initiative he had the confidence to do so.

Have you been watching the same player that I have?

Nadals game is based on playing the percentages. It is the opposite of high risk tennis. That doesn't mean he doesn't play aggressively. His forehand rally shot is as safe as safe can be with high clearance over the net and spin to bring it in and yet it can pose problems. What he is so good at doing is playing safe to get an opponent out of position and then going for a winner. So I agree about how he was always prepared to take the initiative.

Games based on high risk tennis by definition will be less successful than games based on playing the percentages. What Nadal is so good at is making his opponents uncomfortable whist taking minimum risks himself. This doesn't mean not going for winners. Perhaps his stats on net wins are a good indicator of how his game works? He doesn't take too many risks getting to the net but when he does get there he generally wins the point. Nadal nearly always has a very high volley conversion rate

Of course that is when he is playing well...

Exactly right. No way on Earth is Rafa at his best a high risk player. Sending a ball 6 foot over the net bouncing well before the baseline and rearing up is not high risk.

O please don't let us have the well informed word of Rafa's best critic yet again. I don't care for your biased opinion not when you watch the You Tube clip I posted..Dare anyone disagree with the BB the knowitall Nothing like Federer praise or Nadal's criticism to bring you rushing back to the boards

hawkeye wrote:

TRuffin wrote:Fed almost absurdly aggressive tonight!  He was going for everything and taking it crazy early.  

But missing quite a lot! His first serve percentage was as low as 27%. He will have to up his game if he doesn't want to mess up his chance of getting a win in the quarters.

Agreed. He was serving at 60% in the second set though so I think a combo of rust and some type of experiment in uber aggressiveness. He will have to get some ground rythm going though and neither his next round opponents are the type to work him into a groove.