Scarlets v Munster 23rd October 2015 19:05 Parc y Scarlets

First topic message reminder :


Each side has begun their 2015/16 Guinness PRO12 campaign with perfect 100% winning records - the best start Scarlets have made to any season in the tournament, whilst Munster also began with four wins in both 2010/11 and 2011/12.

Scarlets have not been defeated since Edinburgh visited Parc y Scarlets in March, with their eight successive victories to date continuing their best ever winning run in the competition.

Munster's solitary defeat in their last eleven Guinness PRO12 matches came in last season's final to Glasgow Warriors, whilst their only loss in their last ten fixtures against Welsh regions came on a trip to Ospreys last March.

Scarlets have won just one of their last four clashes with Munster: 18-13 in March 2014. Munster have not been victorious at Parc y Scarlets since a 17-14 win in the European Cup in December 2011.

At Parc y Scarlets, 7.05pm. Live on BBC Wales/TG4
Referee: Gary Conway (IRFU, 16th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Simon Rees, Martyn Lewis (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: Gwyn Bowden (WRU)
TMO: Jon Mason (WRU)
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/18125.php#kMHvgBUrtw5vlGii.99

Previous Meetings

Date Home Score Away Att
21/02/15 Scarlets 25 - 25 Munster Rugby 6,059
10/10/14 Munster Rugby 17 - 6 Scarlets 13,851
01/03/14 Scarlets 18 - 13 Munster Rugby 6,487

mikey_dragon wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Penalties conceded:

Scarlets 11
Munster 12

Doesn't look like the outrageous refereeing performance it's made out to be..

Well that does seem to suggest he was poor for both teams. But there are other things we could take into account; like areas of the field each team committed the offence, yellow cards, etc.

The TMO told him to card Tom Williams, and his linesmen failed to assist him properly too. It was not all Conway.

We're looking for compo, Scarlet.

I reckon £300billion (the shirt deal of the WRU) should perhaps cover it. We're not greedy over here... as long as it's money and lots of it

SecretFly wrote:We're looking for compo, Scarlet.  

I reckon £300billion (the shirt deal of the WRU) should perhaps cover it.  We're not greedy over here... as long as it's money and lots of it

Your more likely to get money from the WRU than us

mikey_dragon wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Penalties conceded:

Scarlets 11
Munster 12

Doesn't look like the outrageous refereeing performance it's made out to be..

Well that does seem to suggest he was poor for both teams. But there are other things we could take into account; like areas of the field each team committed the offence, yellow cards, etc.

How do those numbers suggest he was 'poor for both teams'. They are just numbers, not ratings! How does the no. of penalties given in a game compare to other games? Looks about average to me.

I watched the game and thought Conway was out of his depth. At the time I thought the Irish ref was swaying towards the Irish team, but I was perhaps watching with one eye open. An equal penalty count seems to suggest he was unbiased.

One-Eyeitis is a common health issue in Pro12, mikey.  Don't feel bad about it.  Get yourself to a doctor for inoculation right away.  We're doing a program of trying to stamp it out before it infests the truly great Leagues of Europe.

mikey_dragon wrote:I watched the game and thought Conway was out of his depth. At the time I thought the Irish ref was swaying towards the Irish team, but I was perhaps watching with one eye open. An equal penalty count seems to suggest he was unbiased.

I think that the majority of complains about the refs are a tainted in that way. And the problem is we tend to have Irish refs at most of our home games, which are either attended or broadcasted. And we tend to only watch them the once, and because of that we get the view point of them being one armed. Then the next time we watch them ref we are already watching out for them being one armed etc. A bit of a vicious circle really. And then the reactions on forums like this, with such strong characters arguing their cases both ways, it really leads you to watching out for iffy calls etc.

It doesn't need numbers to show the officiating was dire last Friday, simply an eye or even 2 for those that are inclined to keep both open.
Its not just about Irish officials though, the whole thing needs a review as to the standard of control of what is after all a professional league in the entertainment industry, Conway is ignorant yes but no worse than Leighton Hodges and the WRU actually sent that guy to the RWC!!.
As paying customers we expect to actually watch an entertaining game of rugby and the main thing preventing it is officials that are clearly amateur with their own interpretations of the rules and very little actual accountability, rather than the Professional highly trained officials that we should be provided with as the fans that are paying for this industry in the first place.
If that is whingeing rather than actually supporting my team in the eyes of some then so be it, I will continue to do this until the league employ enough full time professionals to cover all games, with only 6 games each week that is just 24 full time officials between 4 countries, hardly unrealistic.

2ndtimeround wrote: I will continue to do this until the league employ enough full time professionals to cover all games, with only 6 games each week that is just 24 full time officials between 4 countries, hardly unrealistic.

Well it obviously is unrealistic considering the amateur ones, being talked about over the last number of years, allegedly know nothing about the game, and many of them have been cruising around the game for years.

So where do the 24 full time fully trusted refs come from? Ensuring of course that they're divided equally between the four Unions to stop any talk of continuing 'bias' - as for some it won't matter how 'professional' the refs become - they'll always be susceptible to bias (check out the thread on the WC final ref)?

Bias has been the running taunt often in these threads ...it's now thankfully modified itself somewhat to a more palatable collective of 'general ineptness through all the ranks'. But where will all these professionals get their training, from whom, and how long will it take for them to go 'on-line' as it were?

To best way for me would be for the individual unions to pay the bill but for all officials to be employed by the league itself. it will take time to train the officials to the required standard and I have no objection to starting with the current incumbents, just making them full time with the upskilling provided by the league to ensure consistency will pay big dividends in time.

Why would the penalty count mean anything? Absolutely no context at all. One side could have been awarded 12 correct penalties and one side might have been incorrectly awarded 11 penalties.

It's that kind of blinkered, backwards thinking on this forum that I just don't get.

This was 1 minute after the Scarlets had just got back into the match with a penalty kick of their own. Right infront of Conway. He gifts 3 points to Munster with what can only be described as cheating. There is simply no way that a referee 5 metres away can genuinely think that this player is held in the tackle and is not allowed to move

https://vine.co/v/eVl30lVenUb

Well like I said I thought the team of officials were crap. But feel free to give an analysis of the 23 penalties.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well like I said I thought the team of officials were crap. But feel free to give an analysis of the 23 penalties.

What do you think of this one?

https://vine.co/u/1137378498177331200

Chunky Norwich wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well like I said I thought the team of officials were crap. But feel free to give an analysis of the 23 penalties.

What do you think of this one?

https://vine.co/u/1137378498177331200

Good start. As for the 'turnover' it's pretty messy, and could be deemed a 50/50 call. That said, it looked to me as if he went to ground before stealing the ball, so penalty Scarlets.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Good start. As for the 'turnover' it's pretty messy, and could be deemed a 50/50 call. That said, it looked to me as if he went to ground before stealing the ball, so penalty Scarlets.

Awesome. Now multiply that by about 15 and you'll understand why the crowd were booing the referee off the pitch even though their team won.

It was a fair turnover. Both the attacker and defender were obviously holding unto the ball. The Munster player was on his feet at the time. The Scarlets player was off his feet. Law says penalty Munster if the ball wasn't realised to them.

Where's the next one

mikey_dragon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well like I said I thought the team of officials were crap. But feel free to give an analysis of the 23 penalties.

What do you think of this one?

https://vine.co/u/1137378498177331200

Good start. As for the 'turnover' it's pretty messy, and could be deemed a 50/50 call. That said, it looked to me as if he went to ground before stealing the ball, so penalty Scarlets.

At the RWC that would have been a TMO call, and 'neck roll'. And most likely a yellow card if it was a tier two nation entering the ruck

There was no neck roll in that clip. Do you have an extended section, or different angle?

And the first clip?

Munchkin wrote:There was no neck roll in that clip. Do you have an extended section, or different angle?

No, watch the Munster player joining the ruck.  Personally I would have said 'clear out', but going by RWC standards that would be a neck roll.

Just checked, yep his right arm does not go under the arm of Parkes, but it goes around his head, so yes it would be a neck roll.

Chunky Norwich wrote:And the first clip?

He wasn't held in the tackle. If that's what the ref called then he got it wrong. The player wasn't held, and was free to get up and continue.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:And the first clip?

He wasn't held in the tackle. If that's what the ref called then he got it wrong. The player wasn't held, and was free to get up and continue.

Bang on. Conway did this throughout the match in favour of Munster with various different infringements. He did not referee the home side in the same manner he refereed the away side.

I've read different accounts, but for me to be convinced, one way or the other, I would need to see clips from all penalties. The first one I looked at was fair. The second wrong, and it favoured Munster, but then other penalties might have favoured Scarlets. I don't know.
I don't have time to search through the whole game, so the clips are very handy.

But the Scarlets won? There were complaints about the ref on the munster forum of course but they accepted the better team won and moved on.

Why can't you accept the win and move on? This is bizzare, that there is still a discussion on the ref. YOUR TEAM WON. Also If the ref was bias he wouldn't have given that pen at the end.

It was, to a large degree, what was not given also. I counted at least 10 at the game that were blatant and not given to Scarlets. I also counted about 3 or 4 that should have been given to Munster. He was woeful. But favoured Munster by a massive amount. The full game is here if you want to watch it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06kph7q/scrum-v-live-pro-12-20152016-scarlets-v-munster

LeinsterFan4life wrote:But the Scarlets won? There were complaints about the ref on the munster forum of course but they accepted the better team won and moved on.

Why can't you accept the win and move on? This is bizzare, that there is still a discussion on the ref. YOUR TEAM WON. Also If the ref was bias he wouldn't have given that pen at the end.

So the standard of officiating should only be called into question by supporters when their team loses? Is that honestly what you are saying?

The league needs improving, and the officials are one of the things that need improving. It is embarrassing.

Chunky Norwich wrote:It was, to a large degree, what was not given also. I counted at least 10 at the game that were blatant and not given to Scarlets. I also counted about 3 or 4 that should have been given to Munster. He was woeful. But favoured Munster by a massive amount. The full game is here if you want to watch it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06kph7q/scrum-v-live-pro-12-20152016-scarlets-v-munster

Thanks, Chunky. Might do if I get a chance, but analysing games that way takes for ever. For me anyway

Munchkin wrote:I've read different accounts, but for me to be convinced, one way or the other, I would need to see clips from all penalties. The first one I looked at was fair. The second wrong, and it favoured Munster, but then other penalties might have favoured Scarlets. I don't know.
I don't have time to search through the whole game, so the clips are very handy.

So your on here arguing we are one eyed, when you have not even watched the game?

Now come on Munch, admit that is pretty pathetic.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:But the Scarlets won? There were complaints about the ref on the munster forum of course but they accepted the better team won and moved on.

Why can't you accept the win and move on? This is bizzare, that there is still a discussion on the ref. YOUR TEAM WON. Also If the ref was bias he wouldn't have given that pen at the end.

So the standard of officiating should only be called into question by supporters when their team loses? Is that honestly what you are saying?

The league needs improving, and the officials are one of the things that need improving. It is embarrassing.

No I'm saying to move on and talk about something else. The ref gave a penalty to the Scarlets in the 80th min of the game to give them a chance of winning and yet somehow he is being accused of being biased towards Munster? Are you blind, stupid or just didn't watch the full game? Move the fook on and just support the team. The Scarlets have a genuine chance of making the playoffs this year ffs!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:There was no neck roll in that clip. Do you have an extended section, or different angle?

No, watch the Munster player joining the ruck.  Personally I would have said 'clear out', but going by RWC standards that would be a neck roll.

Just checked, yep his right arm does not go under the arm of Parkes, but it goes around his head, so yes it would be a neck roll.

It wasn't a neck roll. Although the right arm does go around the neck, the left arm goes under the Scarlets player right arm, and holds across the chest. The motion on the clip shows the Scarlets player being pushed back, and down. I can't think how that would result in a neck roll.

It is a neck roll. Would I have given it, no. But that doesn't change facts.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:It is a neck roll.  Would I have given it, no.  But that doesn't change facts.

Didn't want to do this, but you asked for it....... my angry face!!!

I'm having the last word.... it ....wasn't a neck roll.

Byeeeeee

Please stick to Bye, save us having you troll us about a match and officials you didn't even watch

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Please stick to Bye, save us having you troll us about a match and officials you didn't even watch

Touchy one.

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Please stick to Bye, save us having you troll us about a match and officials you didn't even watch

 

Touchy one.

No, just someone who is bored with you, and you kind turning up on threads purely to argue with Chunky. Take a look at this thread prior to your appearance, it was nice and on topic. Then look at it after your appearance, total wumfest.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Please stick to Bye, save us having you troll us about a match and officials you didn't even watch

 

Touchy one.

No, just someone who is bored with you, and you kind turning up on threads purely to argue with Chunky.  Take a look at this thread prior to your appearance, it was nice and on topic.  Then look at it after your appearance, total wumfest.

Although Chunky and myself don't always engage in reasonable conversations, this one was. Both sides treated each other with respect, as should be, and ended the conversation on a positive note.

You made the comment about a neck roll, and I disagreed with it, based on the evidence that was given. You then got your knickers in a twist about something that was meant in humour, not to be taken seriously. If having a laugh offends you then that is something that you need to deal with, not me.

I thought better of you, and I'm disappointed in your response.

We will leave it there, Scarlets.

Timing was the best, should have said it sooner. But you know what I mean. Any way, until the next thread where you and your troll mates turn up, see ya.

Scarlets - until you can readily accept that it is the same few posters who start to derail the thread to suit their bitter and twisted agenda, saying the same things over and over and over again, trying to garner the same reactions (inevitably attracting the same people, usually Ulster/Irish fans) then I would sit back and enjoy and stop complaining. There is no point moaning about people boring you as the same posts are going to get the same response. Unlike yourself, most sensible posters on here are honest enough to admit that there are a few posters with the same agenda causing this seemingly endless cycle to continue. You seem to think both parties are as guilty as each other, which is fair enough if you really believe that; just think twice before you moan about people reacting to the same wind-ups every single week. They are going to get as good as they give as long as they are here to stay.

Cue the "he started it/she started it" lecture. Now THAT is boring...

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Timing was the best, should have said it sooner.  But you know what I mean.  Any way, until the next thread where you and your troll mates turn up, see ya.

Yes your timing sucks, as does your logic. Informed by your one-eyed view as always.

There's a few on here that have been trolling the Irish for quite some time, and they get back what they dish out. Deservedly so. You trying to paint them as the victims is laughable, and if they can't take it, they shouldn't dish it out. Tough cookies.

As they say, Scarlets; 'Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen'.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
No I'm saying to move on and talk about something else. The ref gave a penalty to the Scarlets in the 80th min of the game to give them a chance of winning and yet somehow he is being accused of being biased towards Munster? Are you blind, stupid or just didn't watch the full game? Move the fook on and just support the team. The Scarlets have a genuine chance of making the playoffs this year ffs!

What an incredibly arrogant thing to say. Am I allowed to tell you what to talk about too?

Chunky Norwich wrote:And the first clip?

It isn't as outrageous as you would like to think, yes to the letter of the law he wasn't held up, but Scarlets player never really beat the defender so i can see where the ref was coming from.

You really need to try to keep an objective view as rugby is such that unfortunately there are a lot of 50/50 call (which doesn't make sense to me as it shows laws aren't clear enough) and we have to deal with it. At this level, it's probably fair to expect a close penalty count.

To give you an exemple, last season Glasgow played away to Toulouse and had a penalty count of like 17-5 against them when something like 12-8 would have been more appropriate, that was a pathetic refereeing performance as Lacey that day refereed the supposedly bigger team differently.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
No I'm saying to move on and talk about something else. The ref gave a penalty to the Scarlets in the 80th min of the game to give them a chance of winning and yet somehow he is being accused of being biased towards Munster? Are you blind, stupid or just didn't watch the full game? Move the fook on and just support the team. The Scarlets have a genuine chance of making the playoffs this year ffs!

What an incredibly arrogant thing to say. Am I allowed to tell you what to talk about too?

you already tell everyone what to talk about anyway.

The Scarlets/Ulster war spilling over, when do the two next play each other?

mikey_dragon wrote:The Scarlets/Ulster war spilling over, when do the two next play each other?

Next one will probably be on a friday night, you can bet your house on it

VinceWLB wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:And the first clip?

It isn't as outrageous as you would like to think, yes to the letter of the law he wasn't held up, but Scarlets player never really beat the defender so i can see where the ref was coming from.

You really need to try to keep an objective view as rugby is such that unfortunately there are a lot of 50/50 call (which doesn't make sense to me as it shows laws aren't clear enough) and we have to deal with it. At this level, it's probably fair to expect a close penalty count.

To give you an exemple, last season Glasgow played away to Toulouse and had a penalty count of like 17-5 against them when something like 12-8 would have been more appropriate, that was a pathetic refereeing performance as Lacey that day refereed the supposedly bigger team differently.

I know I saw it. It was awful. Yet this referee has a 3rd place play off to referee in the rwc.

The clip above is never a penalty in a million years.

mikey_dragon wrote:The Scarlets/Ulster war spilling over, when do the two next play each other?

February. Be prepared! No quarter given, no mercy shown!!

Munchkin wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:The Scarlets/Ulster war spilling over, when do the two next play each other?

February. Be prepared! No quarter given, no mercy shown!!

It's already a controversial game in all fairness .... an unforgiveable yellow card for Samson Lee in the 53rd minute for being falsely accused of gouging Trimble, who will not even be on the bench on the night. A travesty of justice. It's clear it should have been a straight red!!!

That's from the pre-game notes of Lacey, who has already pinned himself in as ref for the night.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:But the Scarlets won? There were complaints about the ref on the munster forum of course but they accepted the better team won and moved on.

Why can't you accept the win and move on? This is bizzare, that there is still a discussion on the ref. YOUR TEAM WON. Also If the ref was bias he wouldn't have given that pen at the end.

Because it is the sport we care about not just the result.

I don't want to see such inept refereeing performances in rugby.