Dragons v Ulster 8/11/15

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Dragons v Ulster Rugby
Sunday 8th November 2015
Rodney Parade
2.30pm Kick Off
TV- BBC NI and S4C

Referee: Dudley Phillips (IRFU, 54th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Sean Brickell, Simon Rees (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)
TMO: Tim Hayes (WRU)

This should be interesting, Ulster have changed their squad up for this one with the European game in France coming up and with a numbe rof players still missing with Injuries.  Combine that with our frankly awful away record this season and things don't look good but still at least we have best and pienaar back.

Newport Gwent Dragons: Carl Meyer; Ashton Hewitt, Adam Hughes, Adam Warren, Nick Scott; Dorian Jones, Sarel Pretorius; Boris Stankovich, Elliot Dee, Shaun Knight; Cory Hill, Rynard Landman (capt); Ed Jackson, Ollie Griffiths, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Rhys Buckley, Phil Price, Brok Harris, Matthew Screech, Lewis Evans, Charlie Davies, Jason Tovey, Ross Wardle.

Ulster: Peter Nelson; Rory Scholes, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey, Sam Arnold; Paddy Jackson, Paul Marshall; Kyle McCall, Rob Herring (captain), Wiehahn Herbst; Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe; Robbie Diack, Chris Henry, Stephen Mulholland.

Replacements: Rory Best, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Lewis Stevenson, Sean Reidy, Ruan Pienaar, Ian Humphreys, Craig Gilroy

The Dragons deserve a lot more credit than they seem to be getting. I thought Pretorius and Landman were very good. Faletau came into the game in the second half and Dorian Jones surprised me. Ed Jackson had a great first half but then faded a bit later. The team are well coached but the drop off to the bench told in the end. The Dragons are still about three or four players from consistently winning fixtures like this.

The Great Aukster wrote:The team are well coached

Seriously?

Stone Motif wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The team are well coached

Seriously?

I know

Risca Rev wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The team are well coached

Seriously?

I know

Compared to Ulster you're like the blydi All Blacks in terms of coaching

While Ulster fully deserved the win for being able to take their chances and score a try when they had the opportunity...

..this league will forever be a joke and the poor relation in domestic rugby when the league cannot guarantee neutral refs. And it works both ways - there shouldnt be a welsh ref refereeing a welsh vs non-welsh fixture either....joke

But it isn't an issue with neutrality in my opinion, it's just incompetence. Dudley is a shocking ref, as was demonstrated by his performance in the Treviso game two weeks previous. But he also had two Welsh touchjudges, both of who remained passive the entire game. This doesn't help matters either.

There was 2 instances in the 2nd half where an ulster player caught the ball from an offside position which should have led to a Dragons penalty but that was ignored by Dudley. On the verge of half time there was the most blatant tackle in the maul i've seen which stopped Dragons in their track and that was well into Ulster 22 but no penalty. Those were appalling ref decisions (or lack of).

GavinDragon wrote:While Ulster fully deserved the win for being able to take their chances and score a try when they had the opportunity...

..this league will forever be a joke and the poor relation in domestic rugby when the league cannot guarantee neutral refs. And it works both ways - there shouldnt be a welsh ref refereeing a welsh vs non-welsh fixture either....joke

Are you seriously going to raise that ridiculous, peurile whinge?
Why don't you take that over to the thread created by LD and Chunky, they'll pat your back for you and comfort you.

VinceWLB wrote:There was 2 instances in the 2nd half where an ulster player caught the ball from an offside position which should have led to a Dragons penalty but that was ignored by Dudley. On the verge of half time there was the most blatant tackle in the maul i've seen which stopped Dragons in their track and that was well into Ulster 22 but no penalty. Those were appalling ref decisions (or lack of).

Are you talking about the Peter Nelson incident - he was not offside because he got behind the ball before playing it

Pete330v2 wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:While Ulster fully deserved the win for being able to take their chances and score a try when they had the opportunity...

..this league will forever be a joke and the poor relation in domestic rugby when the league cannot guarantee neutral refs. And it works both ways - there shouldnt be a welsh ref refereeing a welsh vs non-welsh fixture either....joke

Are you seriously going to raise that ridiculous, peurile whinge?
Why don't you take that over to the thread created by LD and Chunky, they'll pat your back for you and comfort you.

Yes Gavin. Stop trying to improve the league. It doesn't need improving. Clearly. Pete says so.

VinceWLB wrote:There was 2 instances in the 2nd half where an ulster player caught the ball from an offside position which should have led to a Dragons penalty but that was ignored by Dudley. On the verge of half time there was the most blatant tackle in the maul i've seen which stopped Dragons in their track and that was well into Ulster 22 but no penalty. Those were appalling ref decisions (or lack of).

Well why didn't the Welsh assistant refs bring it do dumb Dudley's attention then?
You also forget to mention the numerous times the Dragons were blatantly offside at rucks and speaking of rucktime it seems it was legal for the Dragons to clear out way past the ruck and come in from the side.
Swings and roundabouts, Dudley Phillips is not a good ref but there were two assistants and a TMO who brought nothing to the party in terms of assistance.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:While Ulster fully deserved the win for being able to take their chances and score a try when they had the opportunity...

..this league will forever be a joke and the poor relation in domestic rugby when the league cannot guarantee neutral refs. And it works both ways - there shouldnt be a welsh ref refereeing a welsh vs non-welsh fixture either....joke

Are you seriously going to raise that ridiculous, peurile whinge?
Why don't you take that over to the thread created by LD and Chunky, they'll pat your back for you and comfort you.

Yes Gavin. Stop trying to improve the league. It doesn't need improving. Clearly. Pete says so.

Jeees, he has a radar for this kind of thing.....

Have to comment on the constant whinging about referees and neutrality.

The league constantly monitor standards through referee assessments and also check to ensure there is no bias.
Welsh teams do not get a higher % of wins when they have Welsh referees and ditto Irish.
Until Scotland and Italy produce more referees the current arrangement is inevitable

This was Ulsters first win with an Irish referee this year.
Dudley Phillips is the weakest of the Irish referees on the panel but he isn't biased just poor

geoff999rugby wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:There was 2 instances in the 2nd half where an ulster player caught the ball from an offside position which should have led to a Dragons penalty but that was ignored by Dudley. On the verge of half time there was the most blatant tackle in the maul i've seen which stopped Dragons in their track and that was well into Ulster 22 but no penalty. Those were appalling ref decisions (or lack of).

Are you talking about the Peter Nelson incident - he was not offside because he got behind the ball before playing it

But he didn't retreat behind the Ulster player that touched the ball so was still offside? Or am i missing something?

Id have to check - cant remember if I'm honest.

Geoff, there was 2 incidents one where the Ulster full back touched the ball with his feet and the other where it was a knock on by an Ulster player which was caught from an offside position, both should have been penalty imo.

Forget the obvious misses. The inconsistency at the breakdown and offside line was appalling.

For this league to have any credibility, it should be seeking to remove any possibility of conscious or unconscious bias. Especially in a game like rugby where the laws are so open to differing interpretations.

"For this league to have any credibility, it should be seeking to remove any possibility of conscious or unconscious bias. Especially in a game like rugby where the laws are so open to differing interpretations."

That's the point at which your credibility disappears. If you are going to start claiming that Ulster won yesterday because the referee made things easier for them because he's from Dublin then you have already run out of arguements. I suggest you bring that line of thinking to the tin foil had wearing LDs and chunkies of this forum. It's simply ridiculous and has a knockout whiff of sour grapes.

In what world is this not offside?

Did Dudley Phillips suddenly totally forget about this law?  Did the three officials suddenly blink for 2 seconds simultaneously and all miss the most obvious offside in the history of the game?

Pete330v2 wrote: I suggest you bring that line of thinking to the tin foil had wearing LDs and chunkies of this forum. It's simply ridiculous and has a knockout whiff of sour grapes.

Or we could take the bury your head in the sand and revert to type like the Pete330v2's or marty's or munchkin's of this forum. You know, where you change the topic of the conversation and start using sarcasm and insults.

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote: I suggest you bring that line of thinking to the tin foil had wearing LDs and chunkies of this forum. It's simply ridiculous and has a knockout whiff of sour grapes.

Or we could take the bury your head in the sand and revert to type like the Pete330v2's or marty's or munchkin's of this forum. You know, where you change the topic of the conversation and start using sarcasm and insults.

So the alternative to trusting the officials in the Pro12 to do as professional a job as they can is to stamp our feet and blame them every time our side loses?

Pete330v2 wrote:"For this league to have any credibility, it should be seeking to remove any possibility of conscious or unconscious bias. Especially in a game like rugby where the laws are so open to differing interpretations."

That's the point at which your credibility disappears. If you are going to start claiming that Ulster won yesterday because the referee made things easier for them because he's from Dublin then you have already run out of arguements. I suggest you bring that line of thinking to the tin foil had wearing LDs and chunkies of this forum. It's simply ridiculous and has a knockout whiff of sour grapes.

what does it matter where he hails from? They are both affiliated and/or employed with/by the IRFU!

GavinDragon wrote:

what does it matter where he hails from? They are both affiliated and/or employed with/by the IRFU!

They will not acknowledge this causes any conflict of interest.

Pete330v2 wrote:So the alternative to trusting the officials in the Pro12 to do as professional a job as they can is to stamp our feet and blame them every time our side loses?

The part highlighted is wrong. The refs in the Pro12 are not professional, they are part time. This is the problem, why you and your gang fail to see this though is just beggars belief. Also, we should take this debate to the thread that has been set-up for it. You are starting to de-rail the thread for Dragons supporters to talk on.

GavinDragon wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"For this league to have any credibility, it should be seeking to remove any possibility of conscious or unconscious bias. Especially in a game like rugby where the laws are so open to differing interpretations."

That's the point at which your credibility disappears. If you are going to start claiming that Ulster won yesterday because the referee made things easier for them because he's from Dublin then you have already run out of arguements. I suggest you bring that line of thinking to the tin foil had wearing LDs and chunkies of this forum. It's simply ridiculous and has a knockout whiff of sour grapes.

what does it matter where he hails from? They are both affiliated and/or employed with/by the IRFU!

Meaning what exactly?

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:So the alternative to trusting the officials in the Pro12 to do as professional a job as they can is to stamp our feet and blame them every time our side loses?

The part highlighted is wrong. The refs in the Pro12 are not professional, they are part time. This is the problem, why you and your gang fail to see this though is just beggars belief. Also, we should take this debate to the thread that has been set-up for it. You are starting to de-rail the thread for Dragons supporters to talk on.

Can you even read? I didn't say they were either full/time or professional.
I said they could be expected to do AS PROFESSIONAL AS JOB AS THEY CAN.
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU???

That regardless of what the stats say (as Disraeli said there are lies, damned lies and statistics) any match refereed by an official who hails from the same country or has some form of affiliation with one of the teams, leaves itself open to allegations of bias. And for a professional league that is quite ridiculous.

So how about while looking at the overall standard of the officials (which I think we can all agree is far below their English, French and SH counterparts), the Pro12 invests in ensuring there are enough referees from all participating countries to ensure that no result can ever be brought into question based on the nationality or employment status of the referee.

GavinDragon wrote:That regardless of what the stats say (as Disraeli said there are lies, damned lies and statistics) any match refereed by an official who hails from the same country or has some form of affiliation with one of the teams, leaves itself open to allegations of bias. And for a professional league that is quite ridiculous.

So how about while looking at the overall standard of the officials (which I think we can all agree is far below their English, French and SH counterparts), the Pro12 invests in ensuring there are enough referees from all participating countries to ensure that no result can ever be brought into question based on the nationality or employment status of the referee.

No, I don't think we can all agree. In fact I know we don't. The standard isn't any different to the AP or T14. There is zero evidence to even suggest otherwise.

As for as the refs officiating sides from their own nationality; there's also zero evidence to suggest that they are allowing bias to influence the games. That's another conspiracy theory and one that doesn't hold water.
Dudley reffed the game yesterday, and like Hodges he tends to be a pedant when it comes to rugby law. The problem with both, I think, is that they make so many calls they are more likely to get some of those calls wrong, or if not wrong then create more opportunities for fans to question them, or moan that they were the wrong calls, even though they are right. Their ability to ref, or lack of, is absolutely nothing to do with their nationality. They just don't happen to be great refs.

Dragons lost yesterday because they couldn't get over the line, and they couldn't get over the line because Ulster put up a very good defence. It happens.

Munchkin wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:That regardless of what the stats say (as Disraeli said there are lies, damned lies and statistics) any match refereed by an official who hails from the same country or has some form of affiliation with one of the teams, leaves itself open to allegations of bias. And for a professional league that is quite ridiculous.

So how about while looking at the overall standard of the officials (which I think we can all agree is far below their English, French and SH counterparts), the Pro12 invests in ensuring there are enough referees from all participating countries to ensure that no result can ever be brought into question based on the nationality or employment status of the referee.

No, I don't think we can all agree. In fact I know we don't. The standard isn't any different to the AP or T14. There is zero evidence to even suggest otherwise.

As for as the refs officiating sides from their own nationality; there's also zero evidence to suggest that they are allowing bias to influence the games. That's another conspiracy theory and one that doesn't hold water.
Dudley reffed the game yesterday, and like Hodges he tends to be a pedant when it comes to rugby law. The problem with both, I think, is that they make so many calls they are more likely to get some of those calls wrong, or if not wrong then create more opportunities for fans to question them, or moan that they were the wrong calls, even though they are right. Their ability to ref, or lack of, is absolutely nothing to do with their nationality. They just don't happen to be great refs.

Dragons lost yesterday because they couldn't get over the line, and they couldn't get over the line because Ulster put up a very good defence. It happens.

+1 and Bravo Munckin.
The tinfoil hat brigade won't listen though...bless 'em.

Pete330v2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:So the alternative to trusting the officials in the Pro12 to do as professional a job as they can is to stamp our feet and blame them every time our side loses?

The part highlighted is wrong. The refs in the Pro12 are not professional, they are part time. This is the problem, why you and your gang fail to see this though is just beggars belief. Also, we should take this debate to the thread that has been set-up for it. You are starting to de-rail the thread for Dragons supporters to talk on.

Can you even read? I didn't say they were either full/time or professional.
I said they could be expected to do AS PROFESSIONAL AS JOB AS THEY CAN.
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU???

Yes I can read thank you. You should not be using the word professional. How can somebody be professional at something or a professional as they can be when the job in itself is not the profession of the person doing it. The referees can do the best they can given their circumstances though, it' just that, that aint good enough.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:That regardless of what the stats say (as Disraeli said there are lies, damned lies and statistics) any match refereed by an official who hails from the same country or has some form of affiliation with one of the teams, leaves itself open to allegations of bias. And for a professional league that is quite ridiculous.

So how about while looking at the overall standard of the officials (which I think we can all agree is far below their English, French and SH counterparts), the Pro12 invests in ensuring there are enough referees from all participating countries to ensure that no result can ever be brought into question based on the nationality or employment status of the referee.

No, I don't think we can all agree. In fact I know we don't. The standard isn't any different to the AP or T14. There is zero evidence to even suggest otherwise.

As for as the refs officiating sides from their own nationality; there's also zero evidence to suggest that they are allowing bias to influence the games. That's another conspiracy theory and one that doesn't hold water.
Dudley reffed the game yesterday, and like Hodges he tends to be a pedant when it comes to rugby law. The problem with both, I think, is that they make so many calls they are more likely to get some of those calls wrong, or if not wrong then create more opportunities for fans to question them, or moan that they were the wrong calls, even though they are right. Their ability to ref, or lack of, is absolutely nothing to do with their nationality. They just don't happen to be great refs.

Dragons lost yesterday because they couldn't get over the line, and they couldn't get over the line because Ulster put up a very good defence. It happens.

+1 and Bravo Munckin.
The tinfoil hat brigade won't listen though...bless 'em.

No need for the insult Pete. I have put forward a plausible argument that you don't agree with. Lets agree to disagree and move on.

Munchkin wrote: he tends to be a pedant when it comes to rugby law.

                 

Morning...just popped in to see if any Dragons supporters were complaining about the ref.

But you haven't put forward anything plausible. You've put forward an opinion without any evidence that would turn it into a plausible arguement. If you want to make it plausible why not point out the instances of this bias you are all worried about. Prove your point instead of pointing fingers and screaming jinx every time your side loses.

GavinDragon wrote:No need for the insult Pete.

Thats just the thing though Gav. You have an opinion, you raise your concern about said opinion, it could lead to a decent debate, but the mafia on here just revert to type with their sarcasm and insults because your concern/opinion does not fit in with their utopian set-up that is Irish rugby.

Next thing is now, I will be accused of slagging off the Irish set-up. That could not be further from the truth, because I quite admire the Irish system, it just does not suit us or the league, and a massive offence is taken when we raise these issues.

Right, where did I put that tin foil hat.......

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote: he tends to be a pedant when it comes to rugby law.

                 

Your little clip doesn't actually show anything other than a ball dropping....

Refs also miss things, or simply make mistakes, even for the pedants. If your claim is that he reffed one side, then you really didn't watch the game.

LordDowlais wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:No need for the insult Pete.

Thats just the thing though Gav. You have an opinion, you raise your concern about said opinion, it could lead to a decent debate, but the mafia on here just revert to type with their sarcasm and insults because your concern/opinion does not fit in with their utopian set-up that is Irish rugby.

Next thing is now, I will be accused of slagging off the Irish set-up. That could not be further from the truth, because I quite admire the Irish system, it just does not suit us or the league, and a massive offence is taken when we raise these issues.

Right, where did I put that tin foil hat.......

And you never dish out the insults?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote: he tends to be a pedant when it comes to rugby law.

                 

Your little clip doesn't actually show anything other than a ball dropping....

Refs also miss things, or simply make mistakes, even for the pedants. If your claim is that he reffed one side, then you really didn't watch the game.

Ouch. Someone doesn't know the laws.

Munchkin wrote:And you never dish out the insults?

No I don't actually. If you can find any evidence of it then I will apologise. But I will not be apologising as you will not find any evidence of me insulting people on here. I do not do it. Yet I secretly think you already know this, but if it helps you with your agenda on here, carry on....

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote: he tends to be a pedant when it comes to rugby law.

                 

Your little clip doesn't actually show anything other than a ball dropping....

Refs also miss things, or simply make mistakes, even for the pedants. If your claim is that he reffed one side, then you really didn't watch the game.

Ouch. Someone doesn't know the laws.

It's a clip showing a ball dropping. I can understand how that counts as evidence in your world though....

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:And you never dish out the insults?

No I don't actually. If you can find any evidence of it then I will apologise. But I will not be aplogising as you will not find any evidence of me insulting people on here. I do not do it. Yet I secretly think you already know this, but if it helps you with your agenda on here, carry on....

You don't get irony, do you?

Munchkin wrote:It's a clip showing a ball dropping. I can understand how that counts as evidence in your world though....

Come on Munch, you can easily see it hit the players backside then get picked up by the player infront of him. OK the ref does not have the benefit of it being slow like we do here, but you are seeing the same as me, so please stop playing silly buggers.

Munchkin wrote:

It's a clip showing a ball dropping. I can understand how that counts as evidence in your world though....

You must be new to rugby.

Munchkin wrote:You don't get irony, do you?

What you typed was not ironic, it was sarcastic. As is said typing quoted here.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's a clip showing a ball dropping. I can understand how that counts as evidence in your world though....

Come on Munch, you can easily see it hit the players backside then get picked up by the player infront of him. OK the ref does not have the benefit of it being slow like we do here, but you are seeing the same as me, so please stop playing silly buggers.

What direction was he running?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:You don't get irony, do you?

What you typed was not ironic, it was sarcastic. As is said typing quoted here.

You're not too bright, are you? The irony would be in what you posted, not me....

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's a clip showing a ball dropping. I can understand how that counts as evidence in your world though....

Come on Munch, you can easily see it hit the players backside then get picked up by the player infront of him. OK the ref does not have the benefit of it being slow like we do here, but you are seeing the same as me, so please stop playing silly buggers.

What direction was he running?

Does it matter. It was offside, now whether it was accidental or on purpose than that is up for debate.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:You don't get irony, do you?

What you typed was not ironic, it was sarcastic. As is said typing quoted here.

You're not too bright, are you? The irony would be in what you posted, not me....

Yep, reverting to type when you have been backed into a corner. How very munchkin of you.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's a clip showing a ball dropping. I can understand how that counts as evidence in your world though....

Come on Munch, you can easily see it hit the players backside then get picked up by the player infront of him. OK the ref does not have the benefit of it being slow like we do here, but you are seeing the same as me, so please stop playing silly buggers.

What direction was he running?

Does it matter. It was offside, now whether it was accidental or on purpose than that is up for debate.

And what if it was a kick chase?