Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

Given the 6N's is just around the corner, not sure Jones had much choice. What other forward has the combination of experience, attitude and when fit is probably first choice? None of the locks or backrow for sure. The half backs and midfield are too unsettled to appoint a captain.

Even if short term, Hartley's appointment says "things are going to be different".

He'll be 34 next world cup , not exactly investing in the future.

Disappointing if Hartley is made captain. Great role model....

Don't be like mr nice guy Robshaw, be like Hartley.

George Carlin is Hartley head and shoulders over the opposition? He lost a head to head with Jamie George in the AP semi final...

no 7 & 1/2 you think Hartley has been hard done to? A history of gouging players,abusing refs,headbutting, punching,biting and elbowing opposition.... can you really say that?

Poor Jamie George isn't getting any luck. Not rated by Lancaster despite being the standout hooker in the AP last season - leading to him being rated behind Webber,LCD,Hartley and T.Youngs.  Did fine in paltry scraps of gametime he was given by Lancaster. Has played well this season.

Now that Lancaster has gone, it's likely that his main rival for the jersey will be made captain despite not showing any form of note this season....

It's easy to say someone is head and shoulders above the rest when a contender like George isn't given a chance.

nathan wrote:Not the most inspiring choice to be honest, but i wonder if it's a short term fix so he can have the time to highlight a new leader.

One of the first things Jones did with Japan was sack the captain (he kept him in the squad, though, calling him the heartbeat of the team). His replacement choice was a winger in his thirties, so he was always seen as a bit of a placeholder. He appointed his World Cup captain later. That's not to say Jones will just do the same with England, of course.

I can see May being the captain

If true, Hartley is a good choice for captain. Sounds like Jones will be bringing a refreshing change of emphasis. It never felt quite right with England being too nicey nicey

In terms of England form, I'd actually like Hartley to be more aggressive (not in terms of silly niggly things but actually putting himself about a bit and carrying more forcefully). His discipline has rarely been a problem for England. He might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's not like he's an completely objectionable human being like Stuart Hogg or go out to cause real harm (like Cian Healy).

I wonder if Hartley captain is with a view to Itoje/Launchbury taking over in 2 years time with more experience under their belts

yappysnap wrote:I can see May being the captain

If you mean Tom rather than Jonny, then that would be a close parallel to what Jones did in Japan.

Yeah I think a fair few of his bans have been on the border of bans but his reputation has played against him, something I don't think should be considered until you get to the ban stage.

yappysnap wrote:I can see May being the captain

Nice WUM.


Safe option is Launchbury - would rather go with him than a hothead like Hartley.

Itoje as the long term solution in a year or two.

beshocked wrote:Disappointing if Hartley is made captain. Great role model....

Don't be like mr nice guy Robshaw, be like Hartley.

George Carlin is Hartley head and shoulders over the opposition? He lost a head to head with Jamie George in the AP semi final...

no 7 & 1/2 you think Hartley has been hard done to? A history of gouging players,abusing refs,headbutting, punching,biting and elbowing opposition.... can you really say that?

Poor Jamie George isn't getting any luck. Not rated by Lancaster despite being the standout hooker in the AP last season - leading to him being rated behind Webber,LCD,Hartley and T.Youngs.  Did fine in paltry scraps of gametime he was given by Lancaster. Has played well this season.

Now that Lancaster has gone, it's likely that his main rival for the jersey will be made captain despite not showing any form of note this season....

It's easy to say someone is head and shoulders above the rest when a contender like George isn't given a chance.

I think its a win win situation for the England team.

Either:

1. Hartley is a brilliant captain, leads us well, maintains his set piece excellence etc, we've got an excellent backup and the team do well.. oorrr
2. He's a headcase like everyone expects, George continues his excellent form, Hartley gets himself banned, and we've got a ready made replacement hooker as well as a core leadership group established with someone to take over from Hartley

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Disappointing if Hartley is made captain. Great role model....

Don't be like mr nice guy Robshaw, be like Hartley.

George Carlin is Hartley head and shoulders over the opposition? He lost a head to head with Jamie George in the AP semi final...

no 7 & 1/2 you think Hartley has been hard done to? A history of gouging players,abusing refs,headbutting, punching,biting and elbowing opposition.... can you really say that?

Poor Jamie George isn't getting any luck. Not rated by Lancaster despite being the standout hooker in the AP last season - leading to him being rated behind Webber,LCD,Hartley and T.Youngs.  Did fine in paltry scraps of gametime he was given by Lancaster. Has played well this season.

Now that Lancaster has gone, it's likely that his main rival for the jersey will be made captain despite not showing any form of note this season....

It's easy to say someone is head and shoulders above the rest when a contender like George isn't given a chance.

I think its a win win situation for the England team.

Either:

1. Hartley is a brilliant captain, leads us well, maintains his set piece excellence etc, we've got an excellent backup and the team do well.. oorrr
2. He's a headcase like everyone expects, George continues his excellent form, Hartley gets himself banned, and we've got a ready made replacement hooker as well as a core leadership group established with someone to take over from Hartley

1. We won't have an excellent back up because we'll have T.Youngs who still does not impress at set piece or George who will stay mostly unproven. It is not good for England to pin all their hopes on Hartley, Lancaster didn't have a contingency plan for the ban to Hartley. I still feel his mistake was a lack of gametime for George, a trap it looks like Jones will fall into.

2.If Hartley is banned then we lose our most experienced hooker leading to again a lack of back up. George is not a ready made replacement because he's not had enough game time at international level as of yet.

Whenever someone is made captain they are effectively blocking development. When Robshaw was captain he was effectively untouchable, admittedly there weren't too many options at 7 but Lancaster did not give Ksevic gametime during the RWC warm ups.

beshocked wrote:

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Disappointing if Hartley is made captain. Great role model....

Don't be like mr nice guy Robshaw, be like Hartley.

George Carlin is Hartley head and shoulders over the opposition? He lost a head to head with Jamie George in the AP semi final...

no 7 & 1/2 you think Hartley has been hard done to? A history of gouging players,abusing refs,headbutting, punching,biting and elbowing opposition.... can you really say that?

Poor Jamie George isn't getting any luck. Not rated by Lancaster despite being the standout hooker in the AP last season - leading to him being rated behind Webber,LCD,Hartley and T.Youngs.  Did fine in paltry scraps of gametime he was given by Lancaster. Has played well this season.

Now that Lancaster has gone, it's likely that his main rival for the jersey will be made captain despite not showing any form of note this season....

It's easy to say someone is head and shoulders above the rest when a contender like George isn't given a chance.

I think its a win win situation for the England team.

Either:

1. Hartley is a brilliant captain, leads us well, maintains his set piece excellence etc, we've got an excellent backup and the team do well.. oorrr
2. He's a headcase like everyone expects, George continues his excellent form, Hartley gets himself banned, and we've got a ready made replacement hooker as well as a core leadership group established with someone to take over from Hartley

1. We won't have an excellent back up because we'll have T.Youngs who still does not impress at set piece or George who will stay mostly unproven. It is not good for England to pin all their hopes on Hartley, Lancaster didn't have a contingency plan for the ban to Hartley. I still feel his mistake was a lack of gametime for George, a trap it looks like Jones will fall into.

2.If Hartley is banned then we lose our most experienced hooker leading to again a lack of back up. George is not a ready made replacement because he's not had enough game time at international level as of yet.

Whenever someone is made captain they are effectively blocking development. When Robshaw was captain he was effectively untouchable, admittedly there weren't too many options at 7 but Lancaster did not give Ksevic gametime during the RWC warm ups.

I'm going on the assumption that George will be coming off the bench. If he's not seen by Jones as good enough to be ahead of Youngs in the pecking order then he's just got to do more, and game time off the bench is a good way to get any player going in internationals

Given that hookers rarely ever play the full 80 mins, I'm actually wondering how it would work at the business end of games, as thats where our decision making has been lacking

Hartley has to be fit to play first. Still unable to do any form of contact session, and heavy fitness sessions are giving him headaches.

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Disappointing if Hartley is made captain. Great role model....

Don't be like mr nice guy Robshaw, be like Hartley.

George Carlin is Hartley head and shoulders over the opposition? He lost a head to head with Jamie George in the AP semi final...

no 7 & 1/2 you think Hartley has been hard done to? A history of gouging players,abusing refs,headbutting, punching,biting and elbowing opposition.... can you really say that?

Poor Jamie George isn't getting any luck. Not rated by Lancaster despite being the standout hooker in the AP last season - leading to him being rated behind Webber,LCD,Hartley and T.Youngs.  Did fine in paltry scraps of gametime he was given by Lancaster. Has played well this season.

Now that Lancaster has gone, it's likely that his main rival for the jersey will be made captain despite not showing any form of note this season....

It's easy to say someone is head and shoulders above the rest when a contender like George isn't given a chance.

I think its a win win situation for the England team.

Either:

1. Hartley is a brilliant captain, leads us well, maintains his set piece excellence etc, we've got an excellent backup and the team do well.. oorrr
2. He's a headcase like everyone expects, George continues his excellent form, Hartley gets himself banned, and we've got a ready made replacement hooker as well as a core leadership group established with someone to take over from Hartley

Doesn't matter. In a couple of years Mikey Haywood will be the England Hooker.

nathan wrote:i know this argument has been done many times over, but i still don't think Hartley isnt head and shoulders above everyone else.

He has aspects to his game that better than others, but he also has aspects that are worse.

But the things that's he's better at than others are the parts that are his job.

Eddie didn't have much choice really. He'd undermined Robshaw by criticizing him previously, plus Robshaw is now in a dog-fight just for selection. Hartley is mostly accepted as the current 1st choice hooker and one of the first on the team sheet. And given Hartley's age and temperament it also gives Eddie scope for replacing him if necessary when a settled side becomes more apparent under the new management.

Plus it'll pish off so many non-fans that it's got some amusement value as well.

Anyway Gats will be pleased.

Hmmm. I tend to agree with beshocked that George can feel a little hard done by in this instance, he's been the form hooker in the Premiership over the last season and a half, and was I felt pushing for a starting spot if not in the driving seat. Making Hartley captain means he's not going to get the chance (to start) unless Hartley is injured or banned. Also, while front row substitutions are pretty much a given nowadays, do we really want our captain routinely being taken off with 20 minutes to go? Who takes over then?

Having said that, I think Hartley will make a good captain, from all accounts he was a good leader at Saints. I also felt his latest ban was frankly ridiculous, and a case of the committee playing the man rather than the ball. We shall see I guess...

I'm ok with Hartley being captain and coming off at 60 mins, if, as others have said, we have the core leadership group. The problem I see is that at the moment we don't seem to have it ..

Just been thinking about Australia in the RWC, Stephen Moore was the captain, but once he came off there was Hooper and Pocock (both former captains) and Giteau still on the field

Similar for Argentina, Creevy was captain, but once he came off, Lobbe was the next man in line.

Do we have the support captains of a similar calibre

Thank you Mad for Chelsea. It's nice to have some agreement from at least one poster.

I personally think it's stupid to bring players off if they are playing well in an effective knock out match like a 6 nations game. A club game is slightly different as the season is a long one and players need to be kept fit.

I think it's important for a coach to be able to adapt to a situation.

Don't get me wrong I think Hartley when in form has been a good player for England but I thought he had a poor 2015 6 nations compared to previous form. I just think England need to consider other options too.

Surely being England captain isn't just about their playing ability? It's about being a good role model and ambassador for English rugby.

I don't think it sends out a positive message if Hartley becomes the standard bearer of English rugby because of his atrocious disciplinary record. Regardless of his rugby playing ability.

beshocked wrote:...Surely being England captain isn't just about their playing ability? It's about being a good role model and ambassador for English rugby...

Jones has all but been told that his primary responsibility is to get results. Given how much Lancaster has been eviscerated lately for his emphasis on culture, I can't see why Jones would care a damn about his captain being an ambassador for the game.

beshocked wrote:

Surely being England captain isn't just about their playing ability? It's about being a good role model and ambassador for English rugby.

I don't think it sends out a positive message if Hartley becomes the standard bearer of English rugby because of his atrocious disciplinary record. Regardless of his rugby playing ability.

Then we may as well keep Robshaw.

doctor_grey wrote:

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Disappointing if Hartley is made captain. Great role model....

Don't be like mr nice guy Robshaw, be like Hartley.

George Carlin is Hartley head and shoulders over the opposition? He lost a head to head with Jamie George in the AP semi final...

no 7 & 1/2 you think Hartley has been hard done to? A history of gouging players,abusing refs,headbutting, punching,biting and elbowing opposition.... can you really say that?

Poor Jamie George isn't getting any luck. Not rated by Lancaster despite being the standout hooker in the AP last season - leading to him being rated behind Webber,LCD,Hartley and T.Youngs.  Did fine in paltry scraps of gametime he was given by Lancaster. Has played well this season.

Now that Lancaster has gone, it's likely that his main rival for the jersey will be made captain despite not showing any form of note this season....

It's easy to say someone is head and shoulders above the rest when a contender like George isn't given a chance.

I think its a win win situation for the England team.

Either:

1. Hartley is a brilliant captain, leads us well, maintains his set piece excellence etc, we've got an excellent backup and the team do well.. oorrr
2. He's a headcase like everyone expects, George continues his excellent form, Hartley gets himself banned, and we've got a ready made replacement hooker as well as a core leadership group established with someone to take over from Hartley

Doesn't matter.  In a couple of years Mikey Haywood will be the England Hooker.  

         

Why wait a couple of years? He is as good as anyone else now.

Might as well transfer the whole Saints front row. Our front row in the World Cup was pretty poor.

well all the articles have suddenly backed down in that Hartley is not in contention.

Scottrf wrote:Might as well transfer the whole Saints front row. Our front row in the World Cup was pretty poor.

He could do worse, as in the Bath front row being pushed by Ford. Form front row in the AP and ALL English, a rarity these days, in fact the whole of the Saints first choice pack is English with Day, Lawes, Gibson, Wood and Dickinson

Don't forget Clark!

Scottrf wrote:Don't forget Clark!

i think everyone would prefer to forget Clark

I know there is some competition at 6 but do sincerely hope that Robshaw gets a chance to carry on showing the kind of performance and form that he did for 95% of his caps, something which seems to get forgotten in the ongoing witch hunts over a few of his captaincy decisions

nathan wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Don't forget Clark!

i think everyone would prefer to forget Clark

The opposition for sure.

lostinwales wrote:I know there is some competition at 6 but do sincerely hope that Robshaw gets a chance to carry on showing the kind of performance and form that he did for 95% of his caps, something which seems to get forgotten in the ongoing witch hunts over a few of his captaincy decisions

+1

Scottrf wrote:

nathan wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Don't forget Clark!

i think everyone would prefer to forget Clark

The opposition for sure.

well yes, those ones that want to keep two working arms

ZZZZZZZZZZ

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Might as well transfer the whole Saints front row. Our front row in the World Cup was pretty poor.

He could do worse, as in the Bath front row being pushed by Ford. Form front row in the AP and ALL English, a rarity these days, in fact the whole of the Saints first choice pack is English with Day, Lawes, Gibson, Wood and Dickinson

Now you are talking sense. Just bring the entire Saints front row - and reserves - and be done.

The front row of Waller - Hartley - Brookes
and reserves Waller - Haywood

As an integral group are as good as anyone in the Premiership.

Scottrf wrote:ZZZZZZZZZZ

lol, i'm just pulling your leg.... or should that be arm

Hopefully the lad has turned a corner and can channel his aggression.

As bad as it was (and embarassing that the club defended him), it was nearly 4 years ago and I'm not aware of anything since, so I think he has. And last couple of years he's played brilliantly.

Scottrf wrote:

nathan wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Don't forget Clark!

i think everyone would prefer to forget Clark

The opposition for sure.

Agree the opposition do not want to see Calum Clark line up against them! He is terrific at the breakdown, as a flanker should. He carries hard and makes his tackles. Who wants to play against that?

He has had only a couple of Yellow Cards in the last three or four seasons, and those for professional fouls only. No indiscipline, no poor sportsmanship. He has gone through his counseling and come out the other side a better player and better person. He would represent England very well. And help us win.

I would be more than happy with Hartley as captain, to me is the only obvious choice. Launchbury argubly first name on the team sheet but quite clearly is not captain material yet and I mean yet, nothing from stopping him develop before some people jump on me for that.

What giving Hartley the captaincy does is also allow the younger hookers to develop. (For my money LCD was the standout hooker this year in the first weeks of the premiership). Not really understanding anyone saying different names as no one is close to Hartley, this may change over the next few years but as yet no.

As I said my backing is on LCD becoming the number 1 eventually albeit improvement in lineout required, I just want more than a solid no.2 that George is, I just don't see the physical attributes that Hartley and LCD bring. Yes he is better at lineout than LCD now but as neither is number 1 for England I go with the one with most potential every time. But right now Hartley is the premier hooker for England and seems a certain coach agrees.

doctor_grey wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

nathan wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Don't forget Clark!

i think everyone would prefer to forget Clark

The opposition for sure.

Agree the opposition do not want to see Calum Clark line up against them!  He is terrific at the breakdown, as a flanker should.  He carries hard and makes his tackles.  Who wants to play against that?  

He has had only a couple of Yellow Cards in the last three or four seasons, and those for professional fouls only.  No indiscipline, no poor sportsmanship.  He has gone through his counseling and come out the other side a better player and better person.  He would represent England very well.  And help us win.

I have no issue with Clark in terms of discipline, my concern would be is he as good as Ewers, Wood or Clifford. And for me no. Not really understanding the clamour to play all the Northampton pack considering in the last game they were dismantled. The whole strentgh of the premiership is each team has quality players, so use them.

Student-A1 wrote:I have no issue with Clark in terms of discipline, my concern would be is he as good as Ewers, Wood or Clifford. And for me no. Not really understanding the clamour to play all the Northampton pack considering in the last game they were dismantled. The whole strentgh of the premiership is each team has quality players, so use them.

To be clear, Clark was mentioned as part of Northampton's all-English pack, not as an England starter. And nobody in the pack that 'dismantled' them was English. But Mako was when the Saracen's scrum was given a hammering. To be honest, it wasn't something I necessarily think should happen but there are clearly benefits to a cohesive unit, and the players are amongst the best. Are there really many props playing better than Waller and Brooks this season? Not IMO.

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Might as well transfer the whole Saints front row. Our front row in the World Cup was pretty poor.

He could do worse, as in the Bath front row being pushed by Ford. Form front row in the AP and ALL English, a rarity these days, in fact the whole of the Saints first choice pack is English with Day, Lawes, Gibson, Wood and Dickinson

Now you are talking sense.  Just bring the entire Saints front row - and reserves - and be done.  

The front row of Waller - Hartley - Brookes
and reserves Waller - Haywood

As an integral group are as good as anyone in the Premiership.  

Hartley and Brookes are my first choice for England, non other of the Northampton pack would be. Not having the Wallers as international class nor Haywood.

A fit Corbisero was my LH (shame as I don't think we will see that again), but others are way ahead of the Wallers. I understand some on here are having a Northampton love in but Englands best pack will be a mix. At most 3 Northampton players will be in there if Wood is picked at 6.

Student-A1 wrote:Hartley and Brookes are my first choice for England, non other of the Northampton pack would be. Not having the Wallers as international class nor Haywood.

A fit Corbisero was my LH (shame as I don't think we will see that again), but others are way ahead of the Wallers. I understand some on here are having a Northampton love in but Englands best pack will be a mix. At most 3 Northampton players will be in there if Wood is picked at 6.

Kind of agree with Haywood at the minute but not Waller. Is he international standard, who knows. Needs to be tried. But he's very influential and I don't think there are many better in the Prem. He's better than Mako, and I think a better future prospect than Marler. Not really a Northampton love in either, just the front row. It's kind of strange that you'd be happy with a fit Corbs when Waller has been the better player for a while, even when Corbs was fit.

You'd have to throw Lawes in the mix as well.

Scottrf wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:Hartley and Brookes are my first choice for England, non other of the Northampton pack would be. Not having the Wallers as international class nor Haywood.

A fit Corbisero was my LH (shame as I don't think we will see that again), but others are way ahead of the Wallers. I understand some on here are having a Northampton love in but Englands best pack will be a mix. At most 3 Northampton players will be in there if Wood is picked at 6.

Kind of agree with Haywood at the minute but not Waller. Is he international standard, who knows. Needs to be tried. But he's very influential and I don't think there are many better in the Prem. He's better than Mako, and I think a better future prospect than Marler. Not really a Northampton love in either, just the front row.

Well I diagree, don't see what Waller brings to the table. Not being overally critical of him as he is a really good club player. I don't think he has been as good as Marler, Auterac or Vunipola. I am sure you will mention the Bath Northampton game as you seem to want an all Northampton England team, but in that game Auterac was up against Brookes who I think has been up there with Ayrza as most destructive prop, Waller against Thomas who will never be great at scrummaging. Plus Bath had no second rows which makes a huge difference. Now I am not going to slag any Northampton player off, but I don't think last weeks performance can be dismissed either, it showed England need to be better overall. England don't have one team that is super powerful all over the pitch but by utilising all the 12 teams they do have a great pool of players.

Thankfully Jones won't have the bias blinkers that we as fans all possess when he picks his team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd have to throw Lawes in the mix as well.

Throw him in but would be behind Itoje, Kruis, Attwood and Launchbury. Think he needs a kick up the bum as he has gone from one of first names on team sheet to not so. He was the athletic lock but now Itoje is more athletic and combines a better all round game.

Not for me yet.

Student-A1 wrote:Well I diagree, don't see what Waller brings to the table. Not being overally critical of him as he is a really good club player. I don't think he has been as good as Marler, Auterac or Vunipola. I am sure you will mention the Bath Northampton game as you seem to want an all Northampton England team, but in that game Auterac was up against Brookes who I think has been up there with Ayrza as most destructive prop, Waller against Thomas who will never be great at scrummaging. Plus Bath had no second rows which makes a huge difference. Now I am not going to slag any Northampton player off, but I don't think last weeks performance can be dismissed either, it showed England need to be better overall. England don't have one team that is super powerful all over the pitch but by utilising all the 12 teams they do have a great pool of players.

Thankfully Jones won't have the bias blinkers that we as fans all possess when he picks his team.

I literally have said 1. I'm just talking about the front row 2. I don't necessarily think they should all be chosen but that it's an option. Get a grip and stop with the straw man. If you don't see what he brings, his scrummaging, his breakdown work, his consistency that's your ignorance not his lack of ability.

Scottrf wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:Well I diagree, don't see what Waller brings to the table. Not being overally critical of him as he is a really good club player. I don't think he has been as good as Marler, Auterac or Vunipola. I am sure you will mention the Bath Northampton game as you seem to want an all Northampton England team, but in that game Auterac was up against Brookes who I think has been up there with Ayrza as most destructive prop, Waller against Thomas who will never be great at scrummaging. Plus Bath had no second rows which makes a huge difference. Now I am not going to slag any Northampton player off, but I don't think last weeks performance can be dismissed either, it showed England need to be better overall. England don't have one team that is super powerful all over the pitch but by utilising all the 12 teams they do have a great pool of players.

Thankfully Jones won't have the bias blinkers that we as fans all possess when he picks his team.

I literally have said 1. I'm just talking about the front row 2. I don't necessarily think they should all be chosen but that it's an option. Get a grip and stop with the straw man. If you don't see what he brings, his scrummaging, his breakdown work, his consistency that's your ignorance not his lack of ability.

I apologise for disagreeing with you but someone disagreeing with you is not ignorance you obnoxious child, we will see which way the England coach goes. I never said he was terrible I said I think there are better. I do not see international class when I see him, in Hartley and Brookes I do. Obviously you are the oracle on this subject so will leave you to it and go back to my pressing workload.

You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with arguments you want me to make.

Student-A1 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd have to throw Lawes in the mix as well.

Throw him in but would be behind Itoje, Kruis, Attwood and Launchbury. Think he needs a kick up the bum as he has gone from one of first names on team sheet to not so. He was the athletic lock but now Itoje is more athletic and combines a better all round game.

I think Lawes will still be in the 23 if fit and in any kind of form. If EJ wants to play an aggressive defense where people are stopped on (or behind) the gain line then his acceleration and line speed are a valuable asset to have and others follow his lead in that respect, certainly at Saints. I think that was why when it became obvious before the WC the lineout needed Parling to help Youngs out it was Launchbury and not Lawes who gave way (before Lawes injury). Everyone on here could see it was under powered so you have to think the coaches could as well but they still went with it because of what Lawes could do elsewhere.

Still think if fit and on form we will probably see the following-
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes

23. Kitchener/ Slater/ Itoje

Especially with Hartley looking like starting every game if fit and Wood's place in the 23 far from assured.