"Pro12 is run by unions ...to fill our ranks with top class talent"

From Iain Morrison in The Scotsman:

Money talks as richer leagues prey on the Pro12

Last weekend was not a good one for the Guinness Pro12 clubs in the Champions Cup. Of the six clubs competing, five lost their ties while the sixth didn’t play at all. Stade Francais postponed their Paris match against Munster, although you doubt the pools panel would mark it an away win.

As recently as 2012, the Pro12 produced three of the four European Cup semi-finalists as Leinster went on to beat Ulster in that Aviva final. A few short years later and the Pro12 are struggling to ensure any representation in the last eight. English clubs bleated for years that the dice were stacked against them but if they are arguing the opposite now they are doing so very quietly.

Wasps and Bath have both beaten Leinster in the last two weekends, Saracens hammered Ulster in Belfast and Glasgow were a poor second to Northampton in their Scotstoun stronghold. Ospreys were the best of a bad bunch, earning two bonus points at Clermont but only after grabbing two tries in the final 35 seconds of a bizarre match.

What the heck happened?

Money may be an obvious answer but in the world of elite sport it does not so much talk as howl from the rooftops. Only last week George North chose to ignore ‘Gatland’s Law’ and re-signed with Northampton. David Denton added around £100,000 to his annual salary when he swapped Edinburgh for Bath and Greig Laidlaw pretty much doubled his moolah in moving to Gloucester.

And it isn’t just the Scots.

The prospect of the stand-off groomed as Ronan O’Gara’s long-term replacement leaving Munster seemed as likely as the club swapping their traditional red strip for a corset and suspenders – but JJ Hanrahan duly quit Thomond Park last summer, snapped up by Northampton, who already have Stephen Myler on their books.

Meanwhile, his Welsh equivalent, Owen Williams, shows no sign of leaving Leicester Tigers and Rhys Priestland is at Bath.

Only last week Richie Gray swapped one French club for another but if the Top 14 are in another financial league altogether the English are fast catching up. A body chosen to investigate breaches of the Aviva Premiership’s salary cap took the unprecedented decision not to make their findings public while claiming with a straight face that no wrongdoing had been proven. Anyway, the official salary cap rises to 
£7 million in 2017/18.

Add in various allowances and two marquee players who are excluded and that number actually tops out between £9-10 million. Glasgow currently spend about £5 million by way of comparison, so holding on to the next Niko Matawalu is going to be no easier than keeping the original model.

If Pro12 teams expect to be outbid by the financial muscle of the Top 14 and the Aviva, they must have been stunned by the size of the carrot reportedly dangled in front of Leinster’s Ian Madigan by an English Championship club – albeit one with Premiership pretensions.

Bristol are said to have offered the midfielder £350,000 a year. Ten years ago that would have been the biggest salary in Europe, now it is being offered by a second division side to a stand-off who can’t command a start for club or country.

It got lost in the World Cup hubbub but the Pro12 appointed a managing director to raise the league’s profile, on the commercial and marketing side. Martin Anayi, pictured left, boasts a background with IMG in motor sport and an Irish/Iraqi heritage that warns against starting a stramash, so I tread carefully when I suggest he picked a tough time to join Pro12.

“I would say the other way around,” Anayi counters. “I have come in at a very good time. You can’t look at results of just one round, you have to look at the whole and we had good results (in the Challenge Cup) by Connacht and Zebre.

“Part of my job is to actually focus on the good things and there are a lot of good things going on in the Pro12. We have proper competition to get into Europe. We have a proper broadcaster base. We have some amazing coverage. We have 130 games live across the course of the season. We have some fantastic spectacle games like the Judgement game (the Millennium Stadium double header) and the 1872 Cup. Those are the things that we focus on and want to develop.”

Anayi makes the valid point that several marquee names have returned to the Pro12 and several others are on the way. Jonny Sexton boasts the highest profile but Dan Lydiate (Ospreys) and Jon Davies, who returns to Scarlets colours next season, are not far behind. But for every player returning ‘home’ there is one who has stayed away and another on the brink of leaving.

Luke Charteris has quit Racing only to join Bath. Jamie Roberts has left Racing but signed for Harlequins, once he gets the Varsity Match out of the way, and who knows how many are looking for a quick getaway this summer. Simon Zebo is linked with Pau, while both Toulon and Clermont are said to be courting Alun-Wyn Jones. Taulupe Faletau has already stayed with the Dragons far longer than anyone expected and clubs are queueing up for Sean O’Brien’s signature.

There is no danger that the Pro12 will become a feeder for the wealthier leagues in England and France because it has already happened. The question is whether it matters and Anayi adopts a sanguine view.

He argues: “Whilst there is clearly a disparity in the wage bill we don’t have that model. We have a different model and focus on how that model can work for us. The Pro12 is run by unions and it allows unions to fill our ranks with top class talent who have been unearthed at an early stage.

“It’s exactly what Super Rugby has been doing for years and been doing incredibly well so I don’t think it’s any different.”

Instead of hard cash Anayi looks to innovation and entertainment. He wants the Pro12 to emulate Super Rugby on the field with an exciting brand of running rugby, but all he offers by way of innovation is a player mic and whatever possibilities player GPS tracking offers. The former has already been trialled: Ulster centre Stuart McCloskey played with a microphone in a September fixture against the Scarlets, the first player in the Northern Hemisphere to do so.

Against that, the Aviva’s idea of innovation is an eye-catching match in New York between London Irish and Saracens during the Six Nations.

The Pro12 has some catching up to do but Anayi is in no hurry to make the one innovation that could transform the league, swapping the twin Italian sides for the Scottish and Welsh exile clubs in London. He cites the obvious political problems of such a move and he insists that, with stability now guaranteed for a number of years, the Italians teams will eventually come good.

I hesitate to argue but, by his own admission, the new Pro12 boss is paid to be optimistic.

28 October

“The US is a market that resonates with us because of the Irish and Italian presence there,” says new Pro12 managing director Martin Anayi

“If we can promote the Pro12 in any way then it’s certainly a market we would look at.”

Anayi, who is undertaking a process of meeting all Pro12 clubs, confirmed he believes the league would benefit hugely from further exposure, particularly in the US.

“We have something strong we think we can offer to the US market and we need to build on that,” he added.

“A lot of our focus at the moment is about how we can promote the Pro12 and we have a fantastic sponsor in Guinness who are helping us to do that.

“Taking the elite game to the US sends a message that after the Rugby World Cup the game can grow and that is something which would be of interest to us.”

London Irish’s decision to play one of their home games in New York will see them aim to maximise the interest of the city’s Irish ex-pat community.

Pro12 bosses believe the likes of Irish provinces Munster or Leinster could create a similar buzz, possibly playing against one of the Welsh regions to further raise the profile of the division.

Asked when it might be realistic for the Pro12 to play a game in the US, Anayi confirmed talks about the concept are well underway.

“There is no specific timescale on playing in the US but the discussions have started and they were in place long before the news came out about London Irish and Saracens,” he added.

“They had also started long before I came on the board.

“I am getting to know PRL (Premiership Rugby Limited) a lot better. They have a lot of good people working there who have been involved in the process of taking games abroad.

“We have had some significant talks about it and the reality is there are stark costs involved.

“But it’s a good idea and we have a very strong competition to market. It’s about getting that out there and telling people about it.”

While emphasising his commitment to growing the Pro12 in different markets, Anayi also pointed out his immediate priority was to focus on its growth in the Celtic countries.

“The US is interesting as a concept but we have to focus on the league at home first,” he said.

“It’s about getting all the pieces of the jigsaw together.

“In the short term we have to make sure we punch above our weight here.”

28 Ottobre

Martedì l’annuncio ufficiale che a marzo verrà giocata negli Stati Uniti la prima partita di Premiership, con Saracens e London Irish che si sfideranno a New York. Ora dal Galles arriva la notizia che qualcosa di simile potrebbe avvenire anche per il Pro12. A farlo sapere è WalesOnLine, che rivela che i board delle regions gallesi (Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Ospreys e Scarlets) stanno studiando la possibilità di giocare in una grande città degli USA almeno una partita del torneo celtico, con New York, Boston e Chicago in testa alle preferenze.

Una opzione che piace anche al board dello stesso torneo, con il nuovo managing director Martin Anayi cha la media gallese dice chiaramente che “il mercato statunitense ci interessa molto vista la forte presenza di irlandesi e italiani. Pensiamo di avere qualcoa di forte da offrire e uno sponsor come Guinness ci può aiutare davvero tanto”. Anayi ha comunque confermato che non sono state messe deadline o scadenze di sorta, ma che il dossier è aperto”.

the stand-off groomed as Ronan O’Gara’s long-term replacement leaving Munster seemed as likely as the club swapping their traditional red strip for a corset and suspenders – but JJ Hanrahan duly quit Thomond Park last summer, snapped up by Northampton, who already have Stephen Myler on their books.

Meanwhile, his Welsh equivalent, Owen Williams, shows no sign of leaving Leicester Tigers and Rhys Priestland is at Bath.

Even someone who watches Munster as little as me knows Hanrahan wasn't getting the game time he should have been getting and was playing second fiddle to Keatley. Can't blame him for moving on with a pay rise and the opportunity to play behind a big Saints pack and inherit the ten shirt from steady but now over 30 Myler.

Owen Williams signed for Tigers when his only game time was LV rugby. Tigers backed him as first choice the following season. He likes the club and is a feature of the "Tigers family". No surprise he renewed his contract when with a club that is aiming for silverware annually and who have a coach willing to discuss availability with Wales.

Priestland left because he was sick of the public criticism. Fair enough I suppose. The move to Bath was also lucrative and playing second fiddle to Ford wasn't going to force him back into the Wales shirt either.

I feel for the Scottish teams though. They do seem to get pilfered with their inability to compete financially.

Good read. Pro12 needs to emulate the super rugby which is by some distance the best league in the world.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

the stand-off groomed as Ronan O’Gara’s long-term replacement leaving Munster seemed as likely as the club swapping their traditional red strip for a corset and suspenders – but JJ Hanrahan duly quit Thomond Park last summer, snapped up by Northampton, who already have Stephen Myler on their books.

Meanwhile, his Welsh equivalent, Owen Williams, shows no sign of leaving Leicester Tigers and Rhys Priestland is at Bath.

Even someone who watches Munster as little as me knows Hanrahan wasn't getting the game time he should have been getting and was playing second fiddle to Keatley. Can't blame him for moving on with a pay rise and the opportunity to play behind a big Saints pack and inherit the ten shirt from steady but now over 30 Myler.

Owen Williams signed for Tigers when his only game time was LV rugby. Tigers backed him as first choice the following season. He likes the club and is a feature of the "Tigers family". No surprise he renewed his contract when with a club that is aiming for silverware annually and who have a coach willing to discuss availability with Wales.

Priestland left because he was sick of the public criticism. Fair enough I suppose. The move to Bath was also lucrative and playing second fiddle to Ford wasn't going to force him back into the Wales shirt either.

I feel for the Scottish teams though. They do seem to get pilfered with their inability to compete financially.

Very valid points here. Particularly about Hanrahan.

The Scottish teams had a playing salary that matched the English cap.  That was announced a few years ago. Whether they try and keep up with the sudden increases is another matter (then again, will many of the English teams?).  The Irish have been supposedly at the English cap for years (same again, with the keeping up with the recent increases). The issue isn't money per team but the number of teams.  We need 12 starting fly halves.  We then need 12 back up fly halves (who are more important for those with international players).  There are simply more jobs in England and France. EDIT: it's not really different to any other job market in the World.

VinceWLB wrote:Pro12 needs to emulate the super rugby which is by some distance the best league in the world.

If it's innovation he wants, and with the above in mind, would he have the balls to look at summer rugby....

Stone Motif wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Pro12 needs to emulate the super rugby which is by some distance the best league in the world.

If it's innovation he wants, and with the above in mind, would he have the balls to look at summer rugby....

That would mean a complete overhaul of the NH calendar but who know, maybe in 10 or 15 years time it might become a real possibility..

Stone Motif wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Pro12 needs to emulate the super rugby which is by some distance the best league in the world.

If it's innovation he wants, and with the above in mind, would he have the balls to look at summer rugby....

That would be a BIG shift, and needs the cooperation of others.

I'd start with what he could achieve/change for the league itself in terms of its start and finish and what players should participate in it.

The idea proposed recently that the focus switch away from European cup to prioritising the League in terms of best/country qualified squad deployment is an interesting one.   Pro 12 games would only contain players who are qualified to play for country.  The squads for European matches could get filled with foreign (non-eligible/non-qualified) players and academy development players.

Pot Hale wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Pro12 needs to emulate the super rugby which is by some distance the best league in the world.

If it's innovation he wants, and with the above in mind, would he have the balls to look at summer rugby....

That would be a BIG shift, and needs the cooperation of others.

I'd start with what he could achieve/change for the league itself in terms of its start and finish and what players should participate in it.

The idea proposed recently that the focus switch away from European cup to prioritising the League in terms of best/country qualified squad deployment is an interesting one.   Pro 12 games would only contain players who are qualified to play for country.  The squads for European matches could get filled with foreign (non-eligible/non-qualified) players and academy development players.

I think that would be a terrible idea, and completely at odds with why Pro12 was set up in the first place. It would also be counter productive for the Unions, as players for the various national sides would not get to step up that level when competing against the best in Europe. Pro12 sides would also miss out on cash bonus if they don't make it out of the groups.

Instead of summer rugby, how about covered stadiums! Might be easier to organise.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

the stand-off groomed as Ronan O’Gara’s long-term replacement leaving Munster seemed as likely as the club swapping their traditional red strip for a corset and suspenders – but JJ Hanrahan duly quit Thomond Park last summer, snapped up by Northampton, who already have Stephen Myler on their books.

Meanwhile, his Welsh equivalent, Owen Williams, shows no sign of leaving Leicester Tigers and Rhys Priestland is at Bath.

Even someone who watches Munster as little as me knows Hanrahan wasn't getting the game time he should have been getting and was playing second fiddle to Keatley. Can't blame him for moving on with a pay rise and the opportunity to play behind a big Saints pack and inherit the ten shirt from steady but now over 30 Myler.

Owen Williams signed for Tigers when his only game time was LV rugby. Tigers backed him as first choice the following season. He likes the club and is a feature of the "Tigers family". No surprise he renewed his contract when with a club that is aiming for silverware annually and who have a coach willing to discuss availability with Wales.

Priestland left because he was sick of the public criticism. Fair enough I suppose. The move to Bath was also lucrative and playing second fiddle to Ford wasn't going to force him back into the Wales shirt either.

I feel for the Scottish teams though. They do seem to get pilfered with their inability to compete financially.

Things haven't improved for Hanrahan since his move to Northampton. One start at 10 (out of a possible 7) to date. All his sub appearances has been at centre as well.

Redjez wrote:Instead of summer rugby, how about covered stadiums! Might be easier to organise.

There is also the solution of plastic pitches, but i'm not a fan of that one..

After watching some of the games this weekend something else has to happen, doesn't it rain in NZ! Feel sorry for the supporters. Small covered stadiums, say max 10000 and don't show the games live.

Redjez wrote:After watching some of the games this weekend something else has to happen, doesn't it rain in NZ! Feel sorry for the supporters. Small covered stadiums, say max 10000 and don't show the games live.

That would have a huge negative impact on the sides. Even if the stadia were sell outs every game, with say a 10-15k cap., this would not bring in a patch of the money that the TV companies pay. As for the money it would cost to make the stadia weather proof, that would be very impractical.

Pot Hale wrote:

Martin Anayi, pictured left, boasts a background with IMG in motor sport and an Irish/Iraqi heritage

So he IS IRISH then?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I feel for the Scottish teams though. They do seem to get pilfered with their inability to compete financially.

As the article states, Glasgow have a salary budget of £5m. That's way higher than any Welsh team. I can only imagine what th salary budgets for the Irish teams are.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Redjez wrote:After watching some of the games this weekend something else has to happen, doesn't it rain in NZ! Feel sorry for the supporters. Small covered stadiums, say max 10000 and don't show the games live.

That would have a huge negative impact on the sides.  Even if the stadia were sell outs every game, with say a 10-15k cap., this would not bring in a patch of the money that the TV companies pay.  As for the money it would cost to make the stadia weather proof, that would be very impractical.

You will make a heck of a lot more filling your stadium than from tv money. 15K seats x average 30 euro = close to half a million per match (for a game you have to stage anyway by hiring stadium etc).

The reason why the Irish Provinces may seem to have more money is down to selling more tickets than anyone else. I remember Munster saying that getting a home semi final in HCup was worth 800K to Munster.

Sin, thing is if you are pulling say an average of 8k, and then you go to max max capacity of 10-15k, then you are then not earning an extra 1/2m, but only 1/4m. Take into account the extra cost of staffing (stewards etc) that is would be less again. In addition, with no televised games, you can expect your sponsorship money to decline hugely, as why would sponsors pay as much when their audience has been slashed to only 10-15k? Another side effect would be that the game would not be reaching those half-reared folk, who attend one or two games a season, and watch the rest on the box. It is a real gamble whether they would fork out the addition cash/time to attend all the games, or just say sod it and not bother with the few games they go to now.

It would be a very big gamble. With the initial outlay to fully enclose the stadia (given that it would involve getting all the stands the same height, closing all the corners and adding a roof), whilst taking the initial hit on the TV revenue and most likely sponsorship too. If it does attract full grounds every game, at a decent ticket price every game, then fine, but otherwise it would lead to most of the sides being bankrupt after a season.

Sin é wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Redjez wrote:After watching some of the games this weekend something else has to happen, doesn't it rain in NZ! Feel sorry for the supporters. Small covered stadiums, say max 10000 and don't show the games live.

That would have a huge negative impact on the sides.  Even if the stadia were sell outs every game, with say a 10-15k cap., this would not bring in a patch of the money that the TV companies pay.  As for the money it would cost to make the stadia weather proof, that would be very impractical.

You will make a heck of a lot more filling your stadium than from tv money. 15K seats x average 30 euro = close to half a million per match (for a game you have to stage anyway by hiring stadium etc).

The reason why the Irish Provinces may seem to have more money is down to selling more tickets than anyone else. I remember Munster saying that getting a home semi final in HCup was worth 800K to Munster.

Thinking about the attendance figures.

Parc Y Scarlets has a capacity of 14,870, and an average ticket for the season being around £18 (some cost more some cost less etc). A sell out would bring in £267,660, and at present going on an average attendance of 7,500 that would generate £135,000. So you are looking at an increase of £132,660 per game. So a total of £1,459,260 a season. You are right that is larger than the £812,500 (If I got my figure right) TV revenue. I am not sure how this would work for other teams, but you would have to assume that ditching the TV (and having full stadia) would have less of an impact the Scottish, Welsh and Italians than the Irish, as they have less 'free' space to squeeze in extra fans. Also the only way to increase income would then be to put ticket prices up and squeeze more cash from the fans.

It doesn't have to be either/or tv or stadium. The reason why the Irish Provinces are better off than most other teams in the Pro12 is down to having good attendances (which also means beer/food sales, corporate entertainment, etc. etc). You can add on more for those. Ulster in particular have developed their corporate entertainment facilities in the new stand which seems to be paying off.

Attendances may look to have gone down for both Leinster & Munster this season, but they still sell about 10-12K season tickets. Connacht is the poor relation in Irish rugby - the reason - fewer fans than the other three Provinces.

Sin é wrote:It doesn't have to be either/or tv or stadium. The reason why the Irish Provinces are better off than most other teams in the Pro12 is down to having good attendances (which also means beer/food sales, corporate entertainment, etc. etc). You can add on more for those. Ulster in particular have developed their corporate entertainment facilities in the new stand which  seems to be paying off.

Attendances may look to have gone down for both Leinster & Munster this season, but they still sell about 10-12K season tickets. Connacht is the poor relation in Irish rugby - the reason - fewer fans than the other three Provinces.

I agree it doesn't have to be one or the other. To get the best income possible, you really need a nice high average attendance, with good TV coverage (which leads to increased sponsorship etc). I agree that the provinces are doing well with generating income via the two steams, and that does help them to have the financial upper hand over the rest of the competition.

However for the purpose of this thread, the point that was put across was

Redjez wrote:After watching some of the games this weekend something else has to happen, doesn't it rain in NZ! Feel sorry for the supporters. Small covered stadiums, say max 10000 and don't show the games live.

Which is realistically just unworkable for the reasons I have mentioned previously.

From a Welsh point of view long term could we build 2 mini covered stadiums that we ground share East and West, we can keep the four regions but play more games under cover, if the Wru are nearly debt free then this could be a long term plan. These stadiums could be used for other events, this is 2015 and there are plenty of amazing stadiums around the world, some even have moveable seating . Just thinking out loud!

We can have seating 10k plus just wouldn't it be better to sell out than keep looking and listening to empty stadiums!

Have we not got a thread based on a similar article somewhere already?

The article looks at one potential area of concern ignoring about 10 other factors that contribute more to the problem. Leinster have a rookie head coach, Munster have to deal with life without 2 of their biggest players and leaders for the first time in over a decade and Ulster are a mess at the minute.

Teams like Leinster and Glasgow lost the bulk of their squads for the start of the season to the RWC. Its surely no coincidence that the English clubs missing the most players were Bath and Saracens who are both suspected of having broken the salary cap and the French club to supply the most was Toulon. The club in the Pro12 with the least players away? Connacht!

In Gordon D'Arcys article a few months back about Burgess and playing at centre, he spoke about adjusting to the different systems at Leinster and Ireland and the difference between playing with ROG and Contepomi. He talked about it taking time to readjust and the need to play games to get back up to speed, this is what whole teams are having to face at times.

I would general say making significant big scale judgements a few weeks into a season are always a bad idea...after a world cup it's just ridiculous.

Remember all the "English teams did well in the first HEC weekend, ha ha, we're awesome", followed by "English teams did badly in the second HEC weekend, ha ha, you suck" articles? Substitute English for whatever you want.

HammerofThunor wrote:I would general say making significant big scale judgements a few weeks into a season are always a bad idea...after a world cup it's just ridiculous.

Remember all the "English teams did well in the first HEC weekend, ha ha, we're awesome", followed by "English teams did badly in the second HEC weekend, ha ha, you suck" articles? Substitute English for whatever you want.

I agree. Although three of the Provinces have fallen behind, in terms of competitiveness, the early results, in the cup, are not a true indicator of where we are. I wouldn't have the brass neck to say we would have won those games, just not lost by the margin, or the manner, we did.
There is something of a knee jerk reaction. Three of the Provinces are in transition, and it will take time for those Provinces to be at the standard required to compete at that level. It won't be this season, maybe not next season. Patience is required.

The Pro12 needs to get it's own house in order first, before we start eyeing up the scraps off the table that is Europe. We have issues of our own that needs sorting.

LordDowlais wrote:The Pro12 needs to get it's own house in order first, before we start eyeing up the scraps off the table that is Europe. We have issues of our own that needs sorting.

Because only one issue can be addressed at the same time?

If Ulster want to compete in Europe we first have to compete in Pro12. At the moment we are being challenged by the other three Provinces, Glasgow, Scarlets, Ospreys and possibly Edinburgh. Ulster, or any of these teams, can't afford to treat Pro12 lightly.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The Pro12 needs to get it's own house in order first, before we start eyeing up the scraps off the table that is Europe. We have issues of our own that needs sorting.

Because only one issue can be addressed at the same time?

I agree, so lets start with our league, our bread and butter, lets get things right our end, before we roll out the red carpet for the scraps the franglos throw our way.

Munchkin wrote:If Ulster want to compete in Europe we first have to compete in Pro12. At the moment we are being challenged by the other three Provinces, Glasgow, Scarlets, Ospreys and possibly Edinburgh. Ulster, or any of these teams, can't afford to treat Pro12 lightly.

None of us should treat the league lightly, why would we ? The league is our bread and butter, lets get that sorted before we start worrying about Europe.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:If Ulster want to compete in Europe we first have to compete in Pro12. At the moment we are being challenged by the other three Provinces, Glasgow, Scarlets, Ospreys and possibly Edinburgh. Ulster, or any of these teams, can't afford to treat Pro12 lightly.

None of us should treat the league lightly, why would we ? The league is our bread and butter, lets get that sorted before we start worrying about Europe.

I don't think there's anything to sort out, unless you're talking about individual teams improving. Not that improvements can't be made in Pro12, just that the indications seem to suggest that improvements are at least in the planning stage. The focus of all teams needs to be on where they finish in Pro12.

I think the league has to be priority - the problem is without a strong financial league to fall back on it puts us on weak negotiating position in Europe.

We need to be in a position to be able to walk away from Europe and that means a successful pro12.

One of the biggest things I've noticed about the pro12 in the past 2 seasons in the caliber of player has dropped of compared to the AP and Top14.

As a league we've lost players like BOD, POC, Muller, Afoa, Thorn, Rush, Jerry Collins (RIP), D'arcy, Roberts, North, ROG, Henson, halfpenny, Shane Williams, Ferris, Matawalu, De Villers, Elsom to name a few. to retirement or the other leagues - all world class players.  

By contrast the reverse is occurring - obviously in France but also in England with player players coming like George Smith, Matfield, Picamoles etc. as well as several of the above - these were the type of players that previously were previously being attracted to the pro12 but are more and more choosing France and England as European destinations.

Munchkin wrote:I don't think there's anything to sort out

Referees for a start. Then move onto the scheduling, then lets get onto the TV deals, there are so many issues I cannot keep going.

rodders wrote:I think the league has to be priority - the problem is without a strong financial league to fall back on it puts us on weak negotiating position in Europe.

At last, an Irishman on here who talks a bit of sense when it comes to the Pro12. I say we stick two fingers up to the scraps from the table the franglos have thrown us. Lets use Europe as a development tool, you still get the same money for it. Now, lets showcase our league and play all our best players in it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I don't think there's anything to sort out

Referees for a start. Then move onto the scheduling, then lets get onto the TV deals, there are so many issues I cannot keep going.

Well done ripping that quote out of context, the context being that improvements can be made, and that moves are under way to make those improvements. We already know that the officiating is under scrutiny, with a view to improvement. As above, we know that ways are being looked at with a view to raising the profile, and in turn an increase in revenue. It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

Do the other 3 provinces have to lend Connacht theirs?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

Do the other 3 provinces have to lend Connacht theirs?

Explain please ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

Again........we have to compete for top 6 in Pro12, to ensure a place in the top Euro competition, and we can't do that by resting our top players when we want. We do have to balance when, and how much, those players are played or rested. The IRFU are also strong on player welfare, and that is something that benefits Pro12.

Read this article to help get a sense why that player welfare is important, and why it benefits Pro12: RobKearney&LeoCullen

Not the player resting argument again. This has been done to death already.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

Again........we have to compete for top 6 in Pro12, to ensure a place in the top Euro competition, and we can't do that by resting our top players when we want. We do have to balance when, and how much, those players are played or rested. The IRFU are also strong on player welfare, and that is something that benefits Pro12.

Read this article to help get a sense why that player welfare is important, and why it benefits Pro12: RobKearney&LeoCullen

Then rest them during the European weekends then.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Not the player resting argument again. This has been done to death already.

Groundhog day.

Munchkin wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Not the player resting argument again. This has been done to death already.

Groundhog day.

It's only because you lot cannot see the bigger picture.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

Do the other 3 provinces have to lend Connacht theirs?

Explain please ?

I took CC to be Champions Cup forgetting it was also Challenge Cup

But the whole things a balancing act, front line players can't play every game even if they aren't playing in the ERCC. Understudies need to be sharp and ready to step up during international windows or else the quality will drop off even more than it currently does and what does that do to the league?

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

Again........we have to compete for top 6 in Pro12, to ensure a place in the top Euro competition, and we can't do that by resting our top players when we want. We do have to balance when, and how much, those players are played or rested. The IRFU are also strong on player welfare, and that is something that benefits Pro12.

Read this article to help get a sense why that player welfare is important, and why it benefits Pro12: RobKearney&LeoCullen

To be honest the 'resting' players debate can't really be used as a stick to beat the Irish with anymore, as that is part of the NDCs, and also so far the Scarlets have been very clear and vocal with regarding their policy of 'rotation' and 'resting' players.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

Again........we have to compete for top 6 in Pro12, to ensure a place in the top Euro competition, and we can't do that by resting our top players when we want. We do have to balance when, and how much, those players are played or rested. The IRFU are also strong on player welfare, and that is something that benefits Pro12.

Read this article to help get a sense why that player welfare is important, and why it benefits Pro12: RobKearney&LeoCullen

Then rest them during the European weekends then.

And how does that benefit the Unions that are paying for them? Those players need that level of experience. They need to compete against the best in Europe. We should also be looking to get out of the groups to raise our income. More money, LD.

If there's no real chance to qualify for the quarters then it would make sense focus more on the Pro12 games.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: It's already being addressed, LD, and we will just have to wait and see what comes out of it.

What about the IRFU taking it more serious and playing their CC players more in the league ?

Again........we have to compete for top 6 in Pro12, to ensure a place in the top Euro competition, and we can't do that by resting our top players when we want. We do have to balance when, and how much, those players are played or rested. The IRFU are also strong on player welfare, and that is something that benefits Pro12.

Read this article to help get a sense why that player welfare is important, and why it benefits Pro12: RobKearney&LeoCullen

To be honest the 'resting' players debate can't really be used as a stick to beat the Irish with anymore, as that is part of the NDCs, and also so far the Scarlets have been very clear and vocal with regarding their policy of 'rotation' and 'resting' players.

I don't think it was ever a very strong argument, Scarlets, but it's true that the NDC's make it less so. I think it's right for different reasons, but not least the welfare of players. It's counter productive for club and country to flog those players into being less effective on the field, or into an early retirement.