England Squad Named

SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

LCD!  The hooker who thinks he's not. I thought EJ wanted players to cover their basics. Otherwise all good.

When are the Saxons announced?

Don't have so much of an issue with LCD, his throwing isn't amazing but he is third choice and unlikely to be picked. He offers a lot in the scrum and around the park. I think he is going to be a very good player and the throwing will come with time, practice and match pressure. Needs to lose the mullet though.

LCD is probably a move by Jones to develop 'world class' players that the previous set-up failed to identify and develop. Similarly with Itoje, Clifford, Devoto and Hill.

He is raw but if developed well he should be outstanding.

Very powerful set of forwards.

Gutted not to see Barritt in there from a Scottish perspective.

From this squad I would like to see against Scots -

Mako V
George
Cole
Kruis
Launchbury
Robshaw
Billy V

Care
Farrell
Watson
Eliot Daly
Joseph
Yarde
Brown

Bench of -
Hartley
Marler
Thomas
Lawes
B.Youngs
Ford
Nowell

Slightly surprised there's no Cipriani or Simpson but the rest have virtually picked themselves as they're on decent form or were knocking on the door anyway.

Kvesic only in as injury cover though is quite a surprise. Perhaps he will have enough time to influence the selectors that he is good enough to start. He's been on great form this year.

I do like the look of the pack in general, and also that a number of those who did not fire at the RWC have been jettisoned. Messrs Wood, Barritt, T Youngs, Wigglesworth and Webber, you've all had a good run - now it's time for others to (hopefully) show us how it's done...

Mr Bounce wrote:Slightly surprised there's no Cipriani or Simpson but the rest have  virtually picked themselves as they're on decent form or were knocking on the door anyway.

Kvesic only in as injury cover though is quite a surprise. Perhaps he will have enough time to influence the selectors that he is good enough to start. He's been on great form this year.

I do like the look of the pack in general, and also that a number of those who did not fire at the RWC have been jettisoned. Messrs Wood, Barritt, T Youngs, Wigglesworth and Webber, you've all had a good run - now it's time for others to  (hopefully) show us how it's done...

I think there's a lot more to that list of players that did not fire at the RWC

Is Ben Morgan injured?

propdavid_london wrote:From this squad I would like to see against Scots -

Mako V
George
Cole
Kruis
Launchbury
Robshaw
Billy V

Care
Farrell
Watson
Eliot Daly
Joseph
Yarde
Brown

Bench of -
Hartley
Marler
Thomas
Lawes
B.Youngs
Ford
Nowell

That's confidence for you - going with only 7 in the pack

Who is this Beaumont bloke, for some reason the name sounds familiar?

Hoonercat wrote:Is Ben Morgan injured?

Ben broke his leg at Gloucester early 2015.
Recuperated, well partly, rushed back to RWC in the autumn by Bomber, perhaps too early.
Rested this season back at club Gloucester, and has played about three half matches this season, so not really back to full match fitness.

I think you are right that Morgan paid the penalty for coming back too quickly, with a very quiet World Cup. The problem for him is that there is now a new kid on the block in Josh Beaumont and Nathan Hughes is just around the corner. So the competition for the 8 shirt is going to be pretty fierce, In fact I can see Billy moving to 6 to get a game for England (and to solve the lack of a destructive 6 that England currently have), with Hughes at 8.

Morgan has shown with some of his performances his potential, but he needs to get himself 100% fit and get a good run of games under his belt.

It is quite exciting to see the quality of players that are currently outside the England squad - Morgan, Tom Youngs, Geoff Parling, Tom Wood, etc.

My biggest shock is no room for Simpson guy is class has been for years,plays a smart territory game too.

One thing - that is not going to be a gentlemanly team - lots of hotheads there. I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n but neither will they roll over wiuthout a fight
could work well, could end really badly

TJ wrote:One thing - that is not going to be a gentlemanly team - lots of hotheads there.  I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n but neither will they roll over wiuthout a fight
could work well, could end really badly

We're going from one extreme to the other then. Lancaster's obsession with obedience and values being replaced with some good old fashioned grit and what takes place on the field being more important than the 'culture'. Good to see, there are too few players in pro rugby with that Jonno frown.

Agreed Gwlad. England needed a bit more attitude, now may get some.
Make sure Halfpenny is fit.

TJ wrote:One thing - that is not going to be a gentlemanly team - lots of hotheads there.  I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n but neither will they roll over wiuthout a fight
could work well, could end really badly

lly don't mind the team not acting as gentlemen but not sure about the hothead comment. Who are you meaning? Hartley with his good discipline for England? Brown who has never been yellow carded for England that I can remember?

More potential for a yellow from Haskell or Cole when I think on it but that's more down to Cole generally pushing his luck when he thinks he needs to and Haskell, well, it's Haskell.

I'd like TJ to identify those 'hotheads' in the England squad and how many times they've been carded for England. If you add them together it's probably still fewer than Hogg has received by himself.

Having said that, I would like to see more of an edge (but with better discipline re. 'technical' offences at the breakdown etc).

Chaps - I said it could go either way. A bit more hard nosed edge could do england good, giving away too many penalties and getting cards could damage them. We will not know until the games.

Take MJ as an example - he was easy to rile, then gave away penalties when the red mist descended. Opponents deliberatly tried to provoke him as when he was angry he was less effective. He did however learn the lesson and in his last few years playing vastly improved his temper and went from a good player to a real great as he eliminated that flaws in his game

A player who has lost their temper makes mistakes and gives away penalties. The point is can these guys channel the temper / aggression into positive attacking hardnosed rugby or will the red mist descend and allow opponents to exploit their weakness?

Its just an observation - not an attack on the players. Personally I think hotheads - and I include Didier Hoggba in this - weaken their team when the red mist descends. However without a hard edge in your players then you are also weakened.

Its not just the cards - its the penalties, its rubbing up refs the wrong way ( see Hoggba not being given a pen for being blocked after a kick because of his reputation) and its the mistakes they make as a result of losing their temper

England probably need a more hard nosed edge than they have had in recent years - but can the guys selected do this without going over the top?

We already have a bad rep for giving away penalties.

Which players in the England squad were you referring to though, TJ? You specifically said. "I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n" which means you must have some players in mind (not just giving away penalties - which needs to be sorted out - but these are mainly 'technical' offences and not for being 'hotheaded').

Interested to know who you mean because I can't see it.

Yeah, just interested at the hot heads. I'm 99% sure you meant Hartley and Brown.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, just interested at the hot heads. I'm 99% sure you meant Hartley and Brown.

Who very rarely (if ever) get carded for England with over 100 caps between them.

The only other player I can think of is Farrell and he doesn't get carded much.

Yeah, but all 3 of them are embedded to the team and the original comments seemed to imply the newbys would contribute to that. Interested in who is seen as a bit flammable for those with an interest from outside.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, but all 3 of them are embedded to the team and the original comments seemed to imply the newbys would contribute to that. Interested in who is seen as a bit flammable for those with an interest from outside.

Good point. I wonder who of the new guys TJ was referring to? Maybe he's got an inkling that a few of them will turn into animals when they pull on the red rose (like Hartley doesn't )

Who I see as inflammable? Hartley, Ashton, Lawes, Farrell, Brown, Care, Tuilagi of the players I know - some of those names I do not know.

I have seen all the above players give away penalties and make mistakes because they have lost their temper. The flip side being of course their hard nosed attitude can make them more effective. Its a conundrum and we will not know which way it will go until the games are played.

Two things I do know - their opponents will set out to rile them as an angry player is less effective - and this england team will not be as soft and passive as recent ones have been

Will this make England more or less effective - I don't know. I just wish Cusiter was going to play for scotland - he is the best wind up merchant I have ever seen play I think and could be guaranteed to get folk to lose their temper. But then he did need Nathan Hines to hide behind when it all kicked off

I googled Owen Farrell late hit - and the results showed both sides of this conundrum.

As I said - its just a observation and I do not know if it will be a positive or a negative. MJs assessment of Hartley in the Guardian makes interesting reading as well

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, just interested at the hot heads. I'm 99% sure you meant Hartley and Brown.

Who very rarely (if ever) get carded for England with over 100 caps between them.

The only other player I can think of is Farrell and he doesn't get carded much.

Yellow for Farrell against Aus in the WC when england were getting back into the game.

Ashton? Lawes? Brown? Care? Really? I've seen all players give away pens but we're really talking yellows and reds here aren't we? Which of those players have regular trouble for England?
Given all those players were around for the last 4 years give or take presumably we'll see similar outcomes for them and that you've seen England as not a gentlemanly team for the Lancaster stint?

Haskell and Mako and no Freddie Burns. What is he thinking? Here goes another cycle of England under achieving.

So a yellow for farrell, yellow for Hartley against SA was it last AIs. They're about level with Hogg give or take a red.

TJ, you made out as if there was going to be a change in England's attitude and "I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n".

The players you mention have been in and around the England squad for a few years and they don't get regularly carded at all. They do have an edge but (mostly) this hasn't let England down and lost games for them. Certainly no more than any other side in the 6Ns (and probably less than some incidents with other sides).

Still, not sure what you mean, unless you are referring to the new players (who you claim not to know about, really).

It's the comment about 'most cards' comment that doesn't seem to make sense. I'm not sure 'we will not know which way it will go until the games are played' is really an answer as you could say that about anything.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ashton? Lawes? Brown? Care? Really? I've seen all players give away pens but we're really talking yellows and reds here aren't we? Which of those players have regular trouble for England?
Given all those players were around for the last 4 years give or take presumably we'll see similar outcomes for them and that you've seen England as not a gentlemanly team for the Lancaster stint?

No - I am talking about losing your temper and becoming less effective as a result

I am also meaning there is a change in balance - Jones clearly has a different attitude to Lancaster about players

Completely fair TJ. It's the card comment I think is wide of the mark; I'm very willing to say they won't be the team with the most cards.

TJ wrote:No - I am talking about losing your temper and becoming less effective as a result

Why did you say this then, "I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n"?

By completely fair I mean the general point. Don't see it as an issue with anyone bar Farrell tbh, that includes Hartley.

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ashton? Lawes? Brown? Care? Really? I've seen all players give away pens but we're really talking yellows and reds here aren't we? Which of those players have regular trouble for England?
Given all those players were around for the last 4 years give or take presumably we'll see similar outcomes for them and that you've seen England as not a gentlemanly team for the Lancaster stint?

No - I am talking about losing your temper and becoming less effective as a result

I am also meaning there is a change in balance - Jones clearly has a different attitude to Lancaster about players

I think you're misunderstanding Brown here. Brown responds very visibly to cheap shots, but he stays the right side of giving away penalties and cards and I've never seen him lose effectiveness through being angry. He lost some form for a couple of weeks after a bad hit in the air last season, and he took until the Sarries game to get over his post-RWC slump, but I've never seen him go "on tilt" as the poker players like to say. Perhaps his secret is the same as the Hulk's - he's always angry.

Care used to be a liability for cards (as I wrote after he cost us the Middlesex Sevens title with a petulant late tackle 'Of all sad words of Rose and Quin, the saddest are these "Danny Care's got a pointless yellow. Again."'), but fatherhood seems to have mellowed him considerably and he's a much more measured player these days. I can't remember his last card.

Likewise, I've seen Ashton lose it in club games, but not in the white shirt. His defence is another matter, but working with Gustard will probably help him out a lot. Gatland famously tried to wind up Hartley and it backfired; his most significant indiscretion in an England shirt was the biting incident where - to be fair - he had a heck of a lot of provocation and I think the law is skewed the wrong way: if someone sticks a finger in another player's mouth and fishhooks, then they should be held equally culpable for what happens next.

The players I do worry about are Lawes and Farrell, both of whom are in Brown's "always angry" camp but seem to me less calculating than he is. They push their tackling to the limits of legality and - so far - have got away with it (though how Farrell avoided even a penalty, let alone a card, for his tackle on Brown last weekend still amazes me. Note the lack of retaliation from Brown, though). But I suspect it only takes one decision to go against them and the floodgates could open.

Im not sure they even lose their temper.

Lawes just looks placid full stop. Id actually like to see him get angry and start smashing some forwards not just backs.

Ashton doesn't lose his temper, and everyone is jumping on the Brown bandwagon because of THAT interview.

Likewise Care?? Really?

Agree with Farrell.

At times he has a permanent scowl on his face...or his bottom lip is touching the floor.

Cyril wrote:

TJ wrote:No - I am talking about losing your temper and becoming less effective as a result

Why did you say this then, "I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n"?

Because it's his opinion? Don't see why you keep questioning it.

Anyway, that's a good england squad. Very strong and has the potential to win the tournament, they just need to click under jones.

Because it's a discussion forum and we wanted to see his reasons behind the statement. That now appears to be thinking that Jones will ask them to be a bit more abrasive to the point where they may be pushing the risk of cards. As I said, don't relly agree with that view.

Last night on radio 5 Ali Williams said that other teams viewed England as 'soft' under Lancaster, because England players were so afraid of his discipline stance - to the extent that opponents would happily lie on the wrong side of rucks knowing they wouldn't be rucked out; that Michael Hooper could 'get away' with a cheap shot on Mike Brown, when new Zealand would have 'kicked off' and forced the referee to card him.

He said teams did not physically fear England like they had against the 2003 England team, and that they needed to go back to that extra physicality.  I think there is a clear difference between the stupidity of a Federico Mendez style punch and the organised 'rucking' that New Zealand are famous for for players caught on the wrong side.  One player can't ruck an opponent on his own, it has to be a collective action.

I agree that the eye popping petulance of Owen Farrell, or the handbags of Etzebeth are just annoying (and embarrassing), but I don't see anything wrong with Jones wanting a harder edge in the England team.  I am pretty sure that if players start picking up yellow and red cards they will soon be out, as the points scored during yellow cards are always highlighted.  There will be occasions where you take a yellow card 'for the team', but England need to be better at playing the referee than they have been for the last few years. If Farrell can't control himself then there is Ford, Cipriani, Burns, etc who can.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Cyril wrote:

TJ wrote:No - I am talking about losing your temper and becoming less effective as a result

Why did you say this then, "I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n"?

Because it's his opinion? Don't see why you keep questioning it.

Opinions are there to be questioned. It's part of discussion.

If we can get back to where England were in NZ in 2003 - when both Back and Dallaglio took a yellow for the team, and the team then held out, won a scrum against the head, worked their way upfield and ended the double-yellow period 3 points up, then that would be a great result.

With hindsight, it did seem that after a fairly bright start England got more and more conservative and less and less effective at the breakdown. If Lancaster was trying to eliminate penalties rather than encourage players to play the percentages, that would explain a lot. You wouldn't catch McCaw failing to play the percentages - though in his case they were rather more stacked in his favour than for most players.

Cyril wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Cyril wrote:

TJ wrote:No - I am talking about losing your temper and becoming less effective as a result

Why did you say this then, "I bet right now they end up with the most cards of any team in the 6n"?

Because it's his opinion? Don't see why you keep questioning it.

Opinions are there to be questioned. It's part of discussion.

But you got answers and you're still questioning it. Don't tell me you're all going to mob him now because you dislike what was said .

He still hasn't really answered the point on cards though unless I missed it?

mikey_dragon wrote:But you got answers and you're still questioning it. Don't tell me you're all going to mob him now because you dislike what was said .

It's a discussion, not a lynch mob.

TJ thinks there are some fiery characters in the England squad which will cost us. Other posters wonder why he thinks that, since those same players have been part of England teams for some years with no greater ill-discipline than other sides show.

As I read it, TJ is saying it's a hunch more than anything. Now people want to know why he has that hunch now rather than when they have turned out for England before.

TJ hasn't made it explicit, but it sounds to me like he thinks Lancaster held these guys in check. Now Jones is talking about developing harder edge, perhaps TJ thinks they'll cross the line too often.

I don't know that for sure, because he hasn't said as much. The other posters sound like they are trying to find that out.

Why on earth is that not an acceptable exchange on a rugby forum?