England Squad Named

First topic message reminder :

SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

You could have surmised why though from what was said. I think some of those guys in the squad are penalties and cards waiting to happen too, although I don't think England will be the team to get the most cards in the 6 nations. That might be Italy.

Except from his initial post you could have summised that he meant the new guys, Beaumont etc. I still don't think those guys are generally cards waiting to happen though, especially Brown who appears to be the guy people point to but despite his very committed nature very rarely gets close to the line let alone to crossing it.

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, just interested at the hot heads. I'm 99% sure you meant Hartley and Brown.

Who very rarely (if ever) get carded for England with over 100 caps between them.

The only other player I can think of is Farrell and he doesn't get carded much.

You're missing the point

Under Lancaster such satis fecit would have been unacceptable.

Under Jones there all be an edge throughout the team, aggression and 'bulldog' spirit will be what drives them (whatever that means)

Bulldog Spirit

Under the House of Lancaster:


Under Eddie (apparently):

I often feel that Brown, Farrell and Lawes have more potential for a spell in the bin, especially when things are not going their way in Brown and Farrell's case. That's not based on past cards, just my perception of them.

doctor_grey wrote:Bulldog Spirit

Under the House of Lancaster:


Under Eddie (apparently):

Thats what my understanding is


We will fight them on the beaches versus holding our manhood cheap.

Hoonercat wrote:I often feel that Brown, Farrell and Lawes have more potential for a spell in the bin, especially when things are not going their way in Brown and Farrell's case. That's not based on past cards, just my perception of them.

I think that was beaten out of them under Stewie, under Eddie i reckon he'd be proud of his boys if they start getting more aggressive

[quote="Gwlad"]

doctor_grey wrote:Bulldog Spirit

Under the House of Lancaster:


Under Eddie (apparently):

Thats what my understanding is


We will fight them on the beaches versus holding our manhood cheap.

[/quotec]
LOL.

Hope so.

I want to see Eddie give the capatincy to Hartley, and gets the best out of Robshaw doing what he does best, just play No6, and nothing else.

So is Underhill the new itoje after his performance for Ospreys tonight v Clermont?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So is Underhill the new itoje after his performance for Ospreys tonight v Clermont?  

He is signed up for three years at Ospreys/Bridgend, while he completes his degree. I don't think you guys can pick players outside of the premiership.

maestegmafia wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So is Underhill the new itoje after his performance for Ospreys tonight v Clermont?  

He is signed up for three years at Ospreys/Bridgend, while he completes his degree. I don't think you guys can pick players outside of the premiership.

It will be interesting to see whether an AP side buys him out. I can't believe it would cost much, and he must be aware that an England cap is a real possibility if he moves 'home'.

I'd love to see Eddie use Stewie era as what he doesn't want. Last time Englnad were great they had a monobrow at lock.

Send his guys out to be a little more Saffa in their rugby as opposed to stopping mid phase to do a press piece skills session with a girls school from Catterick or a horse hugging course

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, just interested at the hot heads. I'm 99% sure you meant Hartley and Brown.

Who very rarely (if ever) get carded for England with over 100 caps between them.

The only other player I can think of is Farrell and he doesn't get carded much.

You're missing the point

Under Lancaster such satis fecit would have been unacceptable.

Under Jones there all be an edge throughout the team, aggression and 'bulldog' spirit will be what drives them (whatever that means)

Perhaps Jones will get more edge and aggression. It doesn't mean these players will suddenly turn into card machines like Liam Williams or Stuart Hogg.

Cyril wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, just interested at the hot heads. I'm 99% sure you meant Hartley and Brown.

Who very rarely (if ever) get carded for England with over 100 caps between them.

The only other player I can think of is Farrell and he doesn't get carded much.

You're missing the point

Under Lancaster such satis fecit would have been unacceptable.

Under Jones there all be an edge throughout the team, aggression and 'bulldog' spirit will be what drives them (whatever that means)

Perhaps Jones will get more edge and aggression. It doesn't mean these players will suddenly turn into card machines like Liam Williams or Stuart Hogg.

YAWN

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, just interested at the hot heads. I'm 99% sure you meant Hartley and Brown.

Who very rarely (if ever) get carded for England with over 100 caps between them.

The only other player I can think of is Farrell and he doesn't get carded much.

You're missing the point

Under Lancaster such satis fecit would have been unacceptable.

Under Jones there all be an edge throughout the team, aggression and 'bulldog' spirit will be what drives them (whatever that means)

Perhaps Jones will get more edge and aggression. It doesn't mean these players will suddenly turn into card machines like Liam Williams or Stuart Hogg.

YAWN

And your point is?

Liam Williams isn't a card machine.

any chance we can be back on topic?

nathan wrote:any chance we can be back on topic?

Ask Cyril

Apparently Eddie wants radical play and i am surprised by omission of Cipriani as I still think he has a unique attacking style and hasn't given his best for England

Why is he out

mikey_dragon wrote:Liam Williams isn't a card machine.

except when he plays Ulster...

Some guys do get a bad rep though regardless of if it is deserved or not

Guess farrell is in pole position with another man of the match

Gwalad.


I thought Cipriani Would of been selected under Eddie Jones too be honest.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Liam Williams isn't a card machine.

except when he plays Ulster...

Some guys do get a bad rep though regardless of if it is deserved or not

Considering how often Scarlets have played Ulster both in domestic and European competitions, Liam Williams' card count is low. I can only think of one and he picked it up in a Pro12 play-off, though I might be wrong in saying it's just the one. That fact has never stopped the Ulster lot hating on the guy though. Therefore I'm guessing you don't actually watch matches between these two teams and just believe everything that has been written about Liam Williams on these boards.

He does seem to have a bit of a bad rep, and I don't think it's much deserved. Hogg seems to have a bad rep with the English for some reason. It was Wales he was red carded against and I can't think of many that consider him a dirty player.

Hoonercat wrote:I often feel that Brown, Farrell and Lawes have more potential for a spell in the bin, especially when things are not going their way in Brown and Farrell's case. That's not based on past cards, just my perception of them.

People seem to share that perception. Only one I occasionally worry about is Farrell,

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im not sure they even lose their temper.

Lawes just looks placid full stop. Id actually like to see him get angry and start smashing some forwards not just backs.

Ashton doesn't lose his temper, and everyone is jumping on the Brown bandwagon because of THAT interview.

Likewise Care?? Really?

 Care used to be a hothead. Now he's club captain and I wouldn't say a card risk at all

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I often feel that Brown, Farrell and Lawes have more potential for a spell in the bin, especially when things are not going their way in Brown and Farrell's case. That's not based on past cards, just my perception of them.

People seem to share that perception. Only one I occasionally worry about is Farrell,

Hartley too if he wasn't always banned

I dont understand all this "talk" about players being card risks, under Eddie these English guys will be too busy playing to hold their places, and performing for the team that they wont have time to be card risks.

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Liam Williams isn't a card machine.

except when he plays Ulster...

Some guys do get a bad rep though regardless of if it is deserved or not

Considering how often Scarlets have played Ulster both in domestic and European competitions, Liam Williams' card count is low. I can only think of one and he picked it up in a Pro12 play-off, though I might be wrong in saying it's just the one. That fact has never stopped the Ulster lot hating on the guy though. Therefore I'm guessing you don't actually watch matches between these two teams and just believe everything that has been written about Liam Williams on these boards.

He does seem to have a bit of a bad rep, and I don't think it's much deserved. Hogg seems to have a bad rep with the English for some reason. It was Wales he was red carded against and I can't think of many that consider him a dirty player.

I don't have a problem with him, and I thought he looked a good deal more dangerous than North when he replaced him in our last meeting in the 6N. I had more of an issue with a different Welsh fullback but this is a thread about the England team and thats enough of a digression

I guess every player can be a card risk, you never know what's going to happen. That said some players actually do have a discipline problem which they can't seem to shake - I've not seen much of him this year but Haskell springs to mind.

Didn't realise Liam Williams is in the England squad.

Martin Johnson said in the Guardian that he never considered Hartley as a captain. I don't imagine Jones to do so either...!

hartley has admitted several times that he can not control himself on the pitch and does stupid things. Why on earth would anyone pick him as a decision maker.

Jones seems to have made some very sensible decisions in his squad selection and coaches. Could well make the difference to England's chances if the quality on paper can step up to international level. This team could be very different to lancasters. And a great deal more challenging to play against.

Guardian quote,
“He’s not getting picked for his club team. He was injured on the weekend having been picked on the bench. What is his [disciplinary] record? Would I have an issue? It does not matter what I think but it probably is an issue.

“I went to the sin-bin more than a few times but I don’t think I cost my team a game. We did not consider him as a captain: there were more experienced contenders then and playing hooker you have enough on your plate in terms of responsibilities. We did not want to overburden him. The captaincy is important to the media but you need a group of senior players to drive things forward.”

I believe like a lot of Englans supporters the issue is more to do with lack of game time & hence form rather than suitability. The simple fact at the moment is Jamie George is playing superbly at the moment & Dylan needs to firstly prove his fitness & some sort of form before being even being considered for the match day squad.

Ps I don't believe Hartley has 'admitted several times that he can't control himself'
There may have been other coaches & 'fans' that have said that & of course Gats famously trying to wind him up pre game which backfired big time.

I suspect Hartley has admitted it several times to citing panels.

Poorfour wrote:I suspect Hartley has admitted it several times to citing panels.

Yes - legal advice to admitting guilt is not quite the same as 'I can't control myself'

Quins were complacent in the second half, but pretty much everyone I've seen agrees that Clifford, Robshaw (official MOTM) and Roberts for Wales were the best players on the pitch

Clifford and Robshaw were everywhere. Too bad Warburton and Navidi weren't playing, they'd have made them look average .

Blues weren't that bad. They just didn't look like they knew what they were doing. Quins were opposite, had a game plan and executed it to perfection, well in the first half at least. I expect the England team to be mostly made up of players from Sarries - but for me Robshaw and Clifford would be on each flank.
M Vunipola, George, Cole, Kruis, Itoje, Robshaw, Clifford, B Vunipola - Youngs, Farrell, then whoever.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Quins were complacent in the second half, but pretty much everyone I've seen agrees that Clifford, Robshaw (official MOTM) and Roberts for Wales were the best players on the pitch

Agreed. Robshaw and Clifford look excellent options for 6 and 7 for England. Roberts is looking good for Wales. Him and Sinckler were brutal in contact against the Blues.

Saracens pack with Robshaw, Clifford and a tighthead added sounds broadly right.

The Saracens players nailed on for me at the moment in the first team are Kruis, Farrell and B Vunipola. The rest are all about 50 50s. Will be interesting to see if Jones just packs them all in and goes for a similar game plan and if tehy can get the sort of dominance they do at club level. Cliffords a very good player but I'd still be erring towards Kvesic with Clifford covering the back row. Wish it was the Scotland game today this build up is lasting forever.

The biggest worry is that E.Jones and co shunt Farrell in at 12.

He's playing better than Ford as a 10, Farrell should start at 10 based on current form.

mikey dragon I like that pack though perhaps Ksevic instead of Clifford, maybe Launchbury instead of Itoje though both in the 23 and Clifford on the bench.


Sarries' set piece was strong against Ulster - very pleasing. The great thing is that Mako,Billy,Itoje,Kruis and George are young.

Sounds as if Farrell is going to get at least some time at 12 this 6Ns. Lancaster, McCall and now Jones all seem to think he can play the role, though Jones appears to be wanting Tuilagi longer term.

Robshaw is nailed on at 6. That's penned in already.

Manu played 12 on the weekend didn't he...surely no coincidence!

Farrell will start at 12 v Scotland. Id put my mortgage on that one!

I'm sure I read a quote from Cockers on being asked to consider Tuilagi at 12 but I can't find it for love nor money now.

No 7 & 1/2 I hope not.

Just because Lancaster and Mccall have picked him in the centres doesn't mean they should.

Farrell in the centres in the RWC was a disaster. Farrell in the centres for Saracens is just as a filler if there are too many injuries.

Playing an out of form Ford with Farrell at 12 who had a poor RWC in the centres - recipe for disaster.

Mccall prefers Farrell at 10, with the likes of Taylor,Barritt,Bosch and even Tompkins in the centres.

To be honest I would much rather Tuilagi at 12 than Farrell. Tuilagi might not be a good passer of the ball but there are few better strike runners in England. He could be the Nonu equivalent of England with a more creative and elusive runner at 13.

How did Tuilagi perform vs Treviso?

How we looking for the team anyway...

1 Mako
2 George v Hartley
3 Cole
4 Kruis
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic v Clifford
8 Billy V

9 Care v Youngs
10 Ford
11 ?
12 Farrell
13 Daly v JJ
14 Watson
15 Brown

A few positions still up for grabs.

thomh wrote:Saracens pack with Robshaw, Clifford and a tighthead added sounds broadly right.

I'd add Launchbury too

Mako, George, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Robshaw, Clifford/Kvesic, Vunipola

Thats my starting pack

BamBam wrote:

thomh wrote:Saracens pack with Robshaw, Clifford and a tighthead added sounds broadly right.

I'd add Launchbury too

Mako, George, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Robshaw, Clifford/Kvesic, Vunipola

Thats my starting pack

Same. I'd start Kvesic and bench Clifford as he covers the whole back row.

If Farrell starts 12 vs Scotland I'll be using this a lot of emotes like


Ford doesn't deserve to start at 10. That's clear.