No Wales player has ever gone to France and improved!

According to Warren Gatland, no player has gone to France and improved, I think he is wrong. Stephen Jones and Gareth Thomas are testament to that. Those two came back much better than before they left, also, I reckon Charteris has improved since he has been over there, some times I really do wonder what comes out of his mouth.

Here's a link:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/no-wales-player-ever-gone-10878048

And for those of you who do not like clicking onto links:-

No Wales player has ever gone to France and improved! Warren Gatland's honest verdict.

Gatland is thrilled that Jonathan Davies is returning to Wales after two years with Clermont.

Warren Gatland maintains no Wales players have improved from going out to ply their trade in France.
A host of Welsh stars have headed across the Channel in recent years, but Gatland doesn’t believe any of them have come back better players.
The Kiwi coach made his comments while welcoming the fact that Lions centre Jonathan Davies will be rejoining the Scarlets next season after two years with Clermont Auvergne.

Davies, who is back on the international stage after recovering from a serious knee injury, will win his 50th Welsh cap this weekend when he lines up against Scotland at the Principality Stadium.
Gatland feels the 27-year-old will only benefit in Test terms from his switch back to the Scarlets.

“The great thing is he is coming home,” said Gatland.
“The experience we have had, I don’t believe any of our players have improved going to France.

“I don’t think any of them have come back better players. So the fact Jonathan has decided to come back home and we can have more hands on with him and work with him, hopefully we will see him getting back to where he was and improving his game.

“He has recovered from quite a significant injury and wasn’t involved in the World Cup, so hopefully he will stay injury free for as long as possible. He has got hopefully another 50 caps in him if he can say fit.”
Reflecting on the player’s half-century milestone, Gatland added: “It’s a great achievement for him to have done that and a great reward.

“It’s great to see him reach his 50th cap and continue his midfield partnership with Jamie, which has been pretty special for us over a number of years.
“Jonathan has been back for a while in rugby and had a few club games under his belt. The game for him last weekend against Ireland would have been good and I thought he showed a couple of nice touches, with a couple of nice little kicks-through that put Ireland on the back foot and under a bit of pressure.
“Having that left foot as an option for us is good. He knows there are a few things to work on in his game and hopefully he has a big one.”

Do you understand why it is so important to regional rugby, that Gatland says players don't improve by leaving Wales?

maestegmafia wrote:Do you understand why it is so important to regional rugby, that Gatland says players don't improve by leaving Wales?

Yes I understand his agenda, but these players are not dull, they see others going, making a good fist of it and in some cases improving, so I would suggest he doesn't come out publicly and say such nonsense.

LordDowlais wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Do you understand why it is so important to regional rugby, that Gatland says players don't improve by leaving Wales?

Yes I understand his agenda, but these players are not dull, they see others going, making a good fist of it and in some cases improving, so I would suggest he doesn't come out publicly and say such nonsense.

Gatland is very much "on message" with this, and whilst I agree that the players "are not dull" (well not all of them), they may also note that of the current crop that went to France, they have come back (regardless of the money). I think Gatland is correct in making a point of that and trying to convince others not to make the move. It's sort of his job.

LordDowlais wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Do you understand why it is so important to regional rugby, that Gatland says players don't improve by leaving Wales?

Yes I understand his agenda, but these players are not dull, they see others going, making a good fist of it and in some cases improving, so I would suggest he doesn't come out publicly and say such nonsense.

I absolutely disagree, I am very proud to hear the Welsh coach quoted on that today and I hope he says a lot more on the matter too.

If you want to see Welsh regions compete at a decent level in professional rugby, if we want to see an improvement in our game we need to hold on to players.

Your opinion that players improve abroad is debateable. They play more games abroad, the club has only its self interest at heart.

If on a dual contract then the players are managed correctly. The more quality players the better the standard of Welsh regional rugby and the better chances those teams have of playing in the later stages in the European knock out rugby.

This improves Welsh rugby as a whole.

It also improves interest, will encourage fans to attend more games, bring more revenue and more potential future stars into the youth game.

If a Welsh player leaves regional rugby, to play for a foreign team, they would have to come back an exceptionally better player for it to be worth it in any way for the game in Wales.

There is not a single player that has gone abroad and made any more than little improvements to their game.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Do you understand why it is so important to regional rugby, that Gatland says players don't improve by leaving Wales?

Yes I understand his agenda, but these players are not dull, they see others going, making a good fist of it and in some cases improving, so I would suggest he doesn't come out publicly and say such nonsense.

Gatland is very much "on message" with this, and whilst I agree that the players "are not dull" (well not all of them), they may also note that of the current crop that went to France, they have come back (regardless of the money). I think Gatland is correct in making a point of that and trying to convince others not to make the move. It's sort of his job.

Do you think Cotter saying similar would be a benefit to Scottish rugby?

I assume he meant during his reign ?

I'd argue Charteris has improved.

I think he's right though. The fitness training, player management and coaching is not at a high level in France, it's a good few years behind the UK and Ireland. Owners tend focus on big, marketable names not trying to close the coaching gap. There are some exceptions but by and large French teams are really not that well coached these days and there is little prospect of going there and improving as a player.

The difference between now and the days when Stephen Jones or Gareth Thomas went over is that coaching over here has developed whereas their coaching has stagnated.

I completely agree with his. I've posted about it previously. Who has actually improved? I agree that Jones and Thomas improved a bit. Maybe Charteris. But that is it. No-one else. In fact some I think may have actually got worse: Aled Brew definitely nosedived; Lydiate struggled; JD2 - was he really a hit as he was for the Scarlets?; Halfpenny is doing fine, but not necessarily better; Roberts didn't set the world on fire but is doing much better now at quins; Gethin - errrrr, no. So I agree.

However, we know the players are not necessarily going there to improve. They say that they're going for a "Better league, more competitive, higher quality, etc." but in reality it's the money that motivates the move. Or to put it another way, if French teams offered less than the regions then they wouldn't go would they? So it's not the desire to be improved by the league, IMO.

Also, has anyone actually watched the French league? It's not the 'French Flair' league that some of us romanticise about. It's an attritional blood bath most of the time, with forward orientated up the jumper battles reigning supreme.

maestegmafia wrote:
I absolutely disagree, I am very proud to hear the Welsh coach quoted on that today and I hope he says a lot more on the matter too.

If you want to see Welsh regions compete at a decent level in professional rugby, if we want to see an improvement in our game we need to hold on to players.

Your opinion that players improve abroad is debateable. They play more games abroad, the club has only its self interest at heart.

If on a dual contract then the players are managed correctly. The more quality players the better the standard of Welsh regional rugby and the better chances those teams have of playing in the later stages in the European knock out rugby.

This improves Welsh rugby as a whole.

It also improves interest, will encourage fans to attend more games, bring more revenue and more potential future stars into the youth game.

If a Welsh player leaves regional rugby, to play for a foreign team, they would have to come back an exceptionally better player for it to be worth it in any way for the game in Wales.

There is not a single player that has gone abroad and made any more than little improvements to their game.

If Gatland was genuine on this, he'd not select players who play outside of Wales.

I fully agree with you that we must keep our better players in Wales in order for the game to survive / grow, but certainly Stephen Jones and Alfie disprove your last sentence.

Also, why the assumption that staying in Wales = signing an NDC? There isn't the money available for NDCs.

Notch wrote:I think he's right though. The fitness training, player management and coaching is not at a high level in France, it's a good few years behind the UK and Ireland. Owners tend focus on big, marketable names not trying to close the coaching gap. There are some exceptions but by and large French teams are really not that well coached these days and there is little prospect of going there and improving as a player.

The difference between now and the days when Stephen Jones or Gareth Thomas went over is that coaching over here has developed whereas their coaching has stagnated.

The bit in bold is a bit of a myth nowadays, no? Certainly it was true 5 years ago but I don't think that it stacks up now.

To claim the teams aren't well coached seems an odd claim, too.

In fact, I don't think that anything in that post is at all accurate.

Griff wrote:I completely agree with his.  I've posted about it previously.  Who has actually improved?  I agree that Jones and Thomas improved a bit.  Maybe Charteris. But that is it.  No-one else.  In fact some I think may have actually got worse:  Aled Brew definitely nosedived; Lydiate struggled; JD2 - was he really a hit as he was for the Scarlets?; Halfpenny is doing fine, but not necessarily better; Roberts didn't set the world on fire but is doing much better now at quins; Gethin -  errrrr, no. So I agree.

However, we know the players are not necessarily going there to improve.  They say that they're going for a "Better league, more competitive, higher quality, etc." but in reality it's the money that motivates the move.  Or to put it another way, if French teams offered less than the regions then they wouldn't go would they?  So it's not the desire to be improved by the league, IMO.

Also, has anyone actually watched the French league? It's not the 'French Flair' league that some of us romanticise about.  It's an attritional blood bath most of the time, with forward orientated up the jumper battles reigning supreme.

There's also the context that the French league demands a certain kind of style and a certain kind of player. The rugby is different. Gatland is using words like 'improve' without any kind of context.

The easy grenade to throw back is that he has coached the Welsh team to what kind of improvement in 4 years?

I think Charteris has improved but it was under Gatland that he did. I don't think it was the French.

Do many players actually improve when they move leagues? In the Premiership, people like Flutey, Waldrom and Samu Manoa seemed to do better than expected but usually we are just talking about whether someone has failed, or managed to live up to their billing/price tag.

Toulon clearly enjoyed having Wilkinson but he was already a World Cup winner. The team benefited because he remained uninjured, rather than because he developed a whole new game. On the other hand, Steffon Armitage must surely be someone who improved after transferring.

Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

Rugby Fan wrote:Do many players actually improve when they move leagues? In the Premiership, people like Flutey, Waldrom and Samu Manoa seemed to do better than expected but usually we are just talking about whether someone has failed, or managed to live up to their billing/price tag.

Toulon clearly enjoyed having Wilkinson but he was already a World Cup winner. The team benefited because he remained uninjured, rather than because he developed a whole new game. On the other hand, Steffon Armitage must surely be someone who improved after transferring.

Or Amirtage is more suited to a conflict game where he is surrounded by some of the world's best.

Griff wrote:Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

And coaches were more honest.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/sport/7538616/Chiefs-pay-offer-not-enough-for-Gatland

BS from Gatland because it's his job to say it. Flip it around - how are players going to improve in a league as crap as the pro 12 with useless coaching?

offload wrote:BS from Gatland because it's his job to say it.  Flip it around - how are players going to improve in a league as crap as the pro 12 with useless coaching?

Hasn't hindered Webb, Biggar, AWJ or Tipuric!

Griff wrote:Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

That's also my thoughts on the matter. Also, there are a number of players who go to other leagues besides the French one and improve. If a player has gone to another arena and improved then it is usually down to the player, rather than the league they are playing in.

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

And coaches were more honest.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/sport/7538616/Chiefs-pay-offer-not-enough-for-Gatland

Not sure how that's relevant! We're not evaluating Gatland's 'improvement' since taking the big bucks in Wales vs the small bucks at home.

Griff wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

And coaches were more honest.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/sport/7538616/Chiefs-pay-offer-not-enough-for-Gatland

Not sure how that's relevant! We're not evaluating Gatland's 'improvement' since taking the big bucks in Wales vs the small bucks at home.

Actually, when you read the article Gatland has a point. Chiefs offered him less than they paid him in 2007, even though he was now a much more experienced and successful coach, inflation, etc.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

That's also my thoughts on the matter. Also, there are a number of players who go to other leagues besides the French one and improve. If a player has gone to another arena and improved then it is usually down to the player, rather than the league they are playing in.

I'd be interested to hear who you think has moved and improved. Not to argue your general point, but more to get an idea of the standard.

Rugby Fan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

That's also my thoughts on the matter. Also, there are a number of players who go to other leagues besides the French one and improve. If a player has gone to another arena and improved then it is usually down to the player, rather than the league they are playing in.

I'd be interested to hear who you think has moved and improved. Not to argue your general point, but more to get an idea of the standard.

Theres very few! Owen Williams springs to mind but he would have developed nicely if he stayed at the Scarlets. No senior player has improved his reputation or game by moving leagues no matter how crap Offload thinks it is

maestegmafia wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Do you understand why it is so important to regional rugby, that Gatland says players don't improve by leaving Wales?

Yes I understand his agenda, but these players are not dull, they see others going, making a good fist of it and in some cases improving, so I would suggest he doesn't come out publicly and say such nonsense.

Gatland is very much "on message" with this, and whilst I agree that the players "are not dull" (well not all of them), they may also note that of the current crop that went to France, they have come back (regardless of the money). I think Gatland is correct in making a point of that and trying to convince others not to make the move. It's sort of his job.

Do you think Cotter saying similar would be a benefit to Scottish rugby?

Yes and no.

Yes: We need a core of top quality players at Edinburgh and Glasgow in order to keep them competitive and hold the identity of Scottish domestic rugby.

No: We only have two Pro teams (unlike Wales) so we actually require players to play abroad in order to give the national side some depth.

Warren Gatland's job is to act in the interests of the WRU, his employer, nothing more nothing less.

Possibly Waikato might be wanting to see how he himself has improved as a coach since he's been away coaching in Europe? then they might be more forthcoming at wanting to discuss financial remuneration.

Sometimes, I'm sure it's just down to a player's character. Do they like a change of environment or not. A lot of rugby players are fairly parochial types, so often struggle to find their feet when friends and family aren't so easily on hand.

On a different note, would anyone want Tomas Francis to leave Exeter for one of the regions to improve his game? There's a lot to be said for continuity.

Rugby Fan wrote:Sometimes, I'm sure it's just down to a player's character. Do they like a change of environment or not. A lot of rugby players are fairly parochial types, so often struggle to find their feet when friends and family aren't so easily on hand.

On a different note, would anyone want Tomas Francis to leave Exeter for one of the regions to improve his game? There's a lot to be said for continuity.

No because hes developing nicley under Rob Baxter, although I'd bring Moriarty home in a flash! Would love his abraisive ball carrying down Swansea

Griff wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

And coaches were more honest.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/sport/7538616/Chiefs-pay-offer-not-enough-for-Gatland

Not sure how that's relevant! We're not evaluating Gatland's 'improvement' since taking the big bucks in Wales vs the small bucks at home.

You wanted players to admit that they go for the money. Well, so did Gatland.

Rugby Fan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:Rugby Fan, the reason improve is mentioned here is that it is often given as the reason to leave as the Pro12 is stunting development and players can 'improve in England or France'. But it's a smoke screen: money is the driver. And that's fine. Just wish players were more honest!

That's also my thoughts on the matter. Also, there are a number of players who go to other leagues besides the French one and improve. If a player has gone to another arena and improved then it is usually down to the player, rather than the league they are playing in.

I'd be interested to hear who you think has moved and improved. Not to argue your general point, but more to get an idea of the standard.

I think Arhip did so at the Ospreys, Montgomery and Landman at the Dragons. There's more but I can't really think. I'm sure you can think of some on the premiership? There are also a number of players who went to other leagues and didn't improve, and perhaps went backwards. I think this dispels the myth that it's down to the league.

He's not far off the mark. The only ones who have improved since the exodus begun was Jones and Thomas, they really did come back different players, I would say Charteris has improved and become way more focused and committed.

It didn't work for Jenkins or Lydiate, Roberts, JD and Phillips haven't gone backwards but have they vastly improved no not think so. Halfpenny well he's not had a huge lot of game time really but again hasn't set the world alight.

Stephen Jones - definately improved when he went to Claremont. Same can be said for Gareth Thomas.

To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

Agree with this, AWJ, Biggar and Webb when signing their latest contracts all said how happy they were at the region. This translates to their form. Jon Davies on the other hand struggled with the language barrier and didn't enjoy life as much as he thought and wanted to come home

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Have you seen the French national team play?

As usual when Gatland opens his mouth he'd be better advised to close it. It's obvious that he has to tow the party line but it's also ridiculous to suggest that no one has improved playing outside Wales. Improvement is down to the individual and I bet most of the players who have played in better leagues against better oposition would argue that the experience has improved them.

I've seen plenty of evidence that some of our players have improved and none that suggests the coaches have improved. They are still forcing the same old "run over them" approach that's 8 years old. Howley might benefit from a stint abroad to learn what a line break looks like!

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Have you seen the French national team play?

3 teams in the European cup QFs. How many does Wales have?

How many have Wales ever had? Have they had more than 3 in the QFs ever?

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Haha. The teams in France aren't better at all. Ask anyone that has played for a French club or coached in France, they are a shambles when it comes to organisation and coaching. Buying success isn't the same as being a really good team.

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Have you seen the French national team play?

3 teams in the European cup QFs. How many does Wales have?

How many have Wales ever had? Have they had more than 3 in the QFs ever?

Toulon have won it three years in a row and no welsh team has ever won it.....tell me something i don't know. Howver, the point is that despite the French clubs successes and as you pointed out the Welsh regions failures, the french players haven't improved playing in these teams as the French national team has quite frankly sucked! whilst we've had decent success with regions unable to compete (Although they do have some promising youngsters now though!)

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Haha. The teams in France aren't better at all. Ask anyone that has played for a French club or coached in France, they are a shambles when it comes to organisation and coaching. Buying success isn't the same as being a really good team.

how do you explain how Wales have never had a team venture past the SF bar the first tournament whereas France tend to have at least 3 teams per season in the KO stages and have what 6-7 outright wins? Sounds like a "better" league to me... (not necessarily than Rabo but better than Welsh teams in it at the least)

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Have you seen the French national team play?

3 teams in the European cup QFs. How many does Wales have?

How many have Wales ever had? Have they had more than 3 in the QFs ever?

The Pro 12 has had six winners and the Top 14 has had 7 winners. Given that the money knocking around in the top 14 is astronomically larger than the pro 12 it is fairly obvious where the better run teams are operating.

Toulon completely bought their success by bring the best players from around the world rather than through development. They are the parasite of European rugby. The pro 12 teams that won, won mainly through well developed home grown talent.

The Ospreys in the mid 00s had as good a team on paper as anyone... think they got to a single QF, thats it.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest I agree with Gatland. I think Welsh players have just as much opportunity to reach their full potential by playing in Wales than France. When you think that the last Lions captain and probably Wales' best player AWJ has played his whole career in Wales then why leave?

short career. double the salary

Exactly but that doesn't have much to do with improvement.

depends on the theory that playing against better teams, better players and with better players improves you or not being true?

Have you seen the French national team play?

3 teams in the European cup QFs. How many does Wales have?

How many have Wales ever had? Have they had more than 3 in the QFs ever?

The Pro 12 has had six winners and the Top 14 has had 7 winners. Given that the money knocking around in the top 14 is astronomically larger than the pro 12 it is fairly obvious where the better run teams are operating.

Toulon completely bought their success by bring the best players from around the world. The pro 12 teams that won, won mainly through well developed home grown talent.

All 6 have been Irish though and for those 6 wins they've had many final appearances, many SF appearances, many QF appearances. Welsh teams hardly ever even get in the QFs.

Yes so by your logic playing against those Irish teams they will naturally improve, no?

Welsh teams have made the final once and have had a number of teams in the semis. Wales has a much smaller pool of talent than France so their players are spread a little thinner across their four teams especially because Welsh teams have historically lost more players to England due to its proximity and to France mainly due to poor foresight on behalf of the WRU not to offer central contracts and other initiatives to encourage Welsh players to stay in Wales. That is partially the reason.

Irish players are much less likely to leave Ireland.

GunsGerms wrote:

Haha. The teams in France aren't better at all. Ask anyone that has played for a French club or coached in France, they are a shambles when it comes to organisation and coaching. Buying success isn't the same as being a really good team.

So ASM under Schmidt and Cotter were a 'shambles'?

GunsGerms wrote:Yes so by your logic playing against those Irish teams they will naturally improve, no?

Welsh teams have made the final once and have had a number of teams in the semis. Wales has a much smaller pool of talent than France so their players are spread a little thinner across their four teams especially because Welsh teams have historically lost more players to England due to its proximity and to France mainly due to poor foresight on behalf of the WRU not to offer central contracts and other initiatives to encourage Welsh players to stay in Wales. That is partially the reason.

Irish players are much less likely to leave Ireland.

Nothing to do with foresight, everything to do with money. The Irish pay well to keep their players in Ireland.

GunsGerms wrote:Yes so by your logic playing against those Irish teams they will naturally improve, no?

Welsh teams have made the final once and have had a number of teams in the semis. Wales has a much smaller pool of talent than France so their players are spread a little thinner across their four teams especially because Welsh teams have historically lost more players to England due to its proximity and to France mainly due to poor foresight on behalf of the WRU not to offer central contracts and other initiatives to encourage Welsh players to stay in Wales. That is partially the reason.

Irish players are much less likely to leave Ireland.

Just had a look

They've had 16 quarter finalists, 5 semi-finalists and zero finalists in the last 20 seasons. In the first year there were no QFs, they had 2 in the SFs and 1 losing finalist in 96 (with no English participants).

on the other hand. Ireland have had 31 quarter finalists, 20 semi finalists, 9 finalists and 6 wins.