welsh 15 of professional era

It's 20 years this year since the game turned professional, so just for a bit of fun who would make your welsh 15?

I'd go for
1. Jenkins
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gough
5. AWJ
6. R.Jones
7. M.Williams
8. S.Quinnel
9. R.Howley
10. S.Jones
11. S.Williams
12. J.Roberts
13. T.Shanklin
14. G.Thomas
15. L.Byrne

Very close calls between a lot of players and i think the likes of current welsh players such as North, halfpenny, biggar, faletau, warburton, tipuric and lydiate could all make this side if it were in 5 years time but with them only being probably less than half way into their international careers they have'nt quite ousted the players before them, although their extremely close.

I like this, but I will have to think long and hard before I put my team up, Gibbs and Mark Taylor were good centers as was Alan Bateman. Neil Jenkins or Dan Biggar....

Gareth Thomas was a much better full back than Byrne who really only had one stellar season. Thomas at 15 and North at 14 for me.

I would also be tempted to shoehorn Scott Gibbs into the centre instead of Roberts just for scoring a last minute try v England at Wembley to deny them a GS.

Everyone else is pretty good.

Would find a spot for JD 2 at his absolute best, North and Halfpenny at 13, 14 and 15, I think (Gibbs maybe a shade past his best by 2000 and anyway duplicates Roberts, who has to start). Think Faletau may be close to ousting Quinnell (another year or two, perhaps, but reckon that North's record already gives him the call over Thomas). Halfpenny a different class over a longer period to Byrne, for me. Maybe Matthew Rees at number 2, who I think was more versatile as a hooker than Hibbard. Nit-picking, I know, but it would be dull to agree too precisely with any list!

Basically, that's a pretty fair group.

The game went pro in 1995 though.

Bugger; thought we were talking about post-6 nations. Must look more closely at questions. Oh well, Gibbs starts then, no question; Roberts is benched. As you were, otherwise.

I know this will cause some debate, but Gavin Henson at his peak will take some beating, circa 2005 he was arguably one of the best inside centers around, he oozed class.

I think he deserves a spot.

PotNoodleMiner wrote:It's 20 years this year since the game turned professional, so just for a bit of fun who would make your welsh 15?

I'd go for
1. Jenkins
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gough
5. AWJ
6. R.Jones
7. M.Williams
8. S.Quinnel
9. R.Howley
10. S.Jones
11. S.Williams
12. J.Roberts
13. T.Shanklin
14. G.Thomas
15. L.Byrne

Very close calls between a lot of players and i think the likes of current welsh players such as North, halfpenny, biggar, faletau, warburton, tipuric and lydiate could all make this side if it were in 5 years time but with them only being probably less than half way into their international careers they have'nt quite ousted the players before them, although their extremely close.

Really good side there and not many arguments other than personal prefernce:

Front row agree with though Rees at his best would push Hibbard and Garin Jenkins was there in early pro years to

2nd row I would put Charteris in as think he is so under rated but a huge nuisance to play against

Backrow - god where to we start trying to put one together Charvis at his best would be at 6 for me

Halfbacks Peel at No9 any day and for me Jenkins has to be at 10

Thomas at XV and then North on the wing

Not sure about Hibbard. Matthew Rees in his prime I think was better IMO.

So many good players unfortunately have to miss out here: Dafydd James, Kevin Morgan, Dwayne Peel, Neil Jenkins, Warburton, Lydiate, Faletau, Charvis, etc. The problem we've often had in Wales has been developing good units but not teams. For years we couldn't get a set of good forwards to match backs that could score loads of tries. Then we got the forwards to create a good platform and struggled to create with some limited backs. We've had decent half backs but no centres, decent wings but no-one to get to the ball to them, etc., etc. One day the planets might align and we might get the complete package. Hoping it's before I die!

And when I say good about th players above, I mean in relative terms! From a Welsh perspective only. They were not world beaters necessarily, but were not far off.

1. Jenkins
2. Rees
3. Jones
4. Charteris
5. AWJ
6. C Charvis
7. M.Williams
8. S.Quinnell

9. D Peel
10. N Jenkins

11. S.Williams
12. J.Roberts
13. T.Shanklin
14. G North
15. G Thomas

That would be mine but like mentioned so many good ones missing out

That's interesting that quite a few would pick Peel ahead of Howley. I tend to think that Peel had the luxury at international level of playing with far better sides than Howley ever enjoyed, for the most part. In those years that he was at Wasps, Howley wasn't far off the best in the business and one of the best I've ever seen at 9, given the luxury of a pack that wasn't spending so much time on the retreat.

Both great players, no doubt, but gun to the head, it would always be Howley, for me the best Welsh 9 since Holmes.

Top Trumps-tastic.

captain carrantuohil wrote:That's interesting that quite a few would pick Peel ahead of Howley. I tend to think that Peel had the luxury at international level of playing with far better sides than Howley ever enjoyed, for the most part. In those years that he was at Wasps, Howley wasn't far off the best in the business and one of the best I've ever seen at 9, given the luxury of a pack that wasn't spending so much time on the retreat.

Both great players, no doubt, but gun to the head, it would always be Howley, for me the best Welsh 9 since Holmes.

Captain, have to entirely agree about Howley over Peel, and if he hadn't been such a fool I also think Henson would have made it into my team after a few more years, probably the most gifted Welsh player I've ever seen, he had it all and wasted it.

great thread

Jenkins, Davies, Jones (Smiler)
AWJ, Cockbain
Ryan, Quinell, Nuggett (Charvis)
Peel (Howley until he became coach)
S Jones (after France)
Shane
Gavin (Doc)
Gibbs (Shanks)
Thomas
Byrne (best line break exponent in Welsh rugby)

think there is a bit too much nostaglia here... the mid 90s- early 00s were ok and Wales had some gifty players but Howley, Gibbs and Quinnell aside its a forgettable era.
From 2005-2015 it has been at a level so much higher.

fa0019 wrote:think there is a bit too much nostaglia here... the mid 90s- early 00s were ok and Wales had some gifty players but Howley, Gibbs and Quinnell aside its a forgettable era.
From 2005-2015 it has been at a level so much higher.

Overall yeah but individually not so sure.

Arwel Thomas?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:think there is a bit too much nostaglia here... the mid 90s- early 00s were ok and Wales had some gifty players but Howley, Gibbs and Quinnell aside its a forgettable era.
From 2005-2015 it has been at a level so much higher.

Overall yeah but individually not so sure.

Its difficult. Guys like Gav in his day were exceptionally talented but Roberts for instance brings it, brings it nearly every game. He's limited as a 12, not a Henson, Giteau, Mauger type but not an all in one Nonu either. However he is very effective and his consistency is so high. Gav could reach 10/10 at times but his average was perhaps 6 or 7. Roberts is at best a 9/10 guy but rarely drops below 8.  Roberts would get the 12 jersey for me even over Gibbs (albeit thats really a toss up).
Faletau for me is super to Quinnell, yes Faletau has been fortunate to have been a pro all his life and had all the science of progression but even still the guy has few weaknesses and can really do it all.

Henson not being in is a big shout as he did have it all but I think Roberts has proved it at every level over a sustained period.

For me the best centre and most under rated we have produced is Bateman but was more an amateur era and spent his best years in league.

I think Faletau is huge for us and would be first name on team sheet but he's not a huge barnstorming No8 which I like and as said so hard to pick from pro era as despite us not being great for a long period we have produced great players.

No Gibbs!

One of the things that I do admire is a player who can shine even in a comparatively weak side (it's why someone like Simon Geoghegan would always be in my Irish all-time team). Gibbs, Howley and Quinnell had a habit of doing this on a consistent basis; when they were in with the Lions, obviously better teams, they shone even more brightly.

Howley clearly had that miserable luck with his shoulder in South Africa, but his performances until then were astonishing. In the early 2000s, he continued to be a figure around whom his team (Wales or Wasps) could rally. Gibbs bridged the amateur and pro eras with equal success and Quinnell was another huge presence during the dog days of Welsh rugby. I could just about accept the case for Faletau over Quinnell, albeit he is playing in a far better side than Scott ever did, and Roberts/Gibbs is an amazingly difficult call, but I do think that Howley sets a playing standard for pro era scum-halves in Wales that hasn't yet been approached.

This is a tricky one. Some decent Welsh players in the 1990s and 2000s didn't have the chance to shine to the same extent as the current crop under Gatland.

This would be my effort:

1.Jenkins 2.Hibbard 3.A Jones 4.AWJ 5.Charteris 6.Charvis 7.M Williams 8.S Quinnell 9.Howley 10.Biggar 11.S Williams 12.Gibbs 13.JD2 14.Evans 15.Byrne

16.Horsman 17.Rees 18.Morris 19.Wyatt 20.R Jones 21.Peel 22.S Jones 23.G Thomas

Tricky. Leaving out Warburton, Roberts, Bateman, Shanklin, North and Halfpenny were difficult decisions. Leaving out Shane Howarth, Jason Jones-Hughes and Iestyn Harris less so!!

I think I would go for the following (second place in brackets)

Leigh Halfpenny (Gareth Thomas)
Daf James (George North)
Tom Shanklin (Jon Davies)
Jamie Roberts (Scott Gibbs)
Shane Williams (has there been another welsh 11 of any quality?)
Steve Jones (Dan Biggar)
Mike Phillips (Rob Howley)

Gethin Jenkins (Duncan Jones)
Garin Jenkins (Matthew Rees)
Adam Jones (John Davies)
Chris Wyatt (Brent Cockbain)
Alun Wyn Jones (Ian Gough)
Colin Charvis (Daf Jones)
Martyn Williams (Sam Warburton)
Scott Quinnell (Ryan Jones)

You've had some pretty decent players over the last years - as alluded to earlier, probably a good thing for the rest of us in the 6Ns that you've rarely been able to put out a XV that is well balanced - probably 2005 was the best in terms of the balance and interplay between forwards and backs.

Interesting how few selections seem to have unanimity:
Gethin Jenkins
Adam Jones
AWJ
Martin Williams
Shane

No disputing these guys credentials.
Some positions of real strength over the years, for example 12 where you can argue for Gibbs, Roberts or Henson. GH probably hit the highest peaks, but for far too short a time, so personal I'd give it to the worlds fastest prop (Gibbs).

Full back also been good: Thomas v Byrne v 1/2p, and with the perennially unlucky Kevin Morgan getting a mention (as with a few players, would have been a great international player if he had ever managed to stay fit for longer than 3 matches)

I do not see how you could have a Welsh best 15. with out Neil Jenkins, Scot GIbbs, or Mark Taylor, not being included.

Plus Gareth Thomas over Lee Byrne any day.

Neil Jenkins was a very average OH at best - World Class kicker but poor-average OH

Gibbs on the other hand is a different story

RubyGuby

Re Neil Jekins being an average OH. but  a World Class kicker.

Wouold you say the same about Leigh Halfpenny> Being an average Full Back. But a World Class Kicker.

Am I the only one who remembers arwel Thomas being a brilliant but unlucky 10?
Had all the skills just lacked a little size

carpet baboon wrote:Am I the only one who remembers arwel Thomas being a brilliant but unlucky 10?
Had all the skills just lacked a little size

I remember him flattening that French second rower after he tried roughing him up off the ball.

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Am I the only one who remembers arwel Thomas being a brilliant but unlucky 10?
Had all the skills just lacked a little size

I remember him flattening that French second rower after he tried roughing him up off the ball.

Wasn't it there 9?

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Am I the only one who remembers arwel Thomas being a brilliant but unlucky 10?
Had all the skills just lacked a little size

I remember him flattening that French second rower after he tried roughing him up off the ball.

Wasn't it there 9?

It was (Carbonneau), but that doesn't make for such a good story.

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Am I the only one who remembers arwel Thomas being a brilliant but unlucky 10?
Had all the skills just lacked a little size

I remember him flattening that French second rower after he tried roughing him up off the ball.

Wasn't it there 9?

Yeah it might have been, it was mad to see him just swing for him though and decking him.

Only way Arwel Thomas could have flattened a 2nd row is if he bit him on the knee - was about as high as little Arwel could reach.

More seriously, he was undoubtedly a talented player ball in hand, but was born at least 15 years too late, as size and physicality became more important. Was about the same size as Phil Bennett, and no-one ever reckoned he was too small or not physical enough in the 70s.

There was a style of play issue with Arwel Thomas as well, particularly with the likes of Shane Howarth and Neil Jenkins offering far more formulaic and structured options at 10. Arwel Thomas was far more of the "Welsh Way" but in an era where Welsh rugby was muscling up.

funnyExiledScot wrote:There was a style of play issue with Arwel Thomas Matthew Morgan as well, particularly with the likes of Shane Howarth Leigh Halfpenny and Neil Jenkins Dan Biggar offering far more formulaic and structured options at 10. Arwel Thomas Matthew Morgan was far more of the "Welsh Way" but in an era where Welsh rugby was muscling up.

It's amazing how often through the modern history of welsh rugby your quote could be used with the names changed (as I did).

Why are there no teams with Nigel Walker in them, the only Welsh person who was faster than him was Colin Jackson, and that try against Bath, a thing of beauty.

Kevin Morgan
Aled Brew
Hal Luscombe
Andy Marinos
Hallam Amos
Ceri Sweeney
Gareth Cooper
Chris Anthony
Lloyd Burns
Rhys Thomas
Ian Gough
Rob Sidoli
Dan Lydiate
Colin Charvis
Taulupe Faletau

Best Welsh xv I've ever seen.

RiscaGame wrote:Kevin Morgan
Aled Brew
Hal Luscombe
Andy Marinos
Hallam Amos
Ceri Sweeney
Gareth Cooper
Chris Anthony
Lloyd Burns
Rhys Thomas
Ian Gough
Rob Sidoli
Dan Lydiate
Colin Charvis
Taulupe Faletau

Best Welsh xv I've ever seen.

I seen what you done there Risca To be fair that's a pretty tasty backrow

What happened to brew?

He went to France and didn't improve (got way worse). Hey cement head was right.

Think he got too big in France and lost a lot of pace. Now he is picking up a lot of niggles like back injuries and the like and has been mostly playing for our A team this season.

RiscaGame wrote:Kevin Morgan
Aled Brew
Hal Luscombe
Andy Marinos
Hallam Amos
Ceri Sweeney
Gareth Cooper
Chris Anthony
Lloyd Burns
Rhys Thomas
Ian Gough
Rob Sidoli
Dan Lydiate
Colin Charvis
Taulupe Faletau

Best Welsh xv I've ever seen.

No Jason Forster?
And where's your proper 7? Have Sowden-Taylor, there you go.

Have to have the ones who have achieved the most with Team Wales, so Lydiate still. If it was a Dragons team, I'd have fozzy over Lydiate easily.

That's a shame at one pointi brew looked like he was going g to be a bit special

majesticimperialman wrote:RubyGuby

Re Neil Jekins being an average OH. but  a World Class kicker.

Wouold you say the same about Leigh Halfpenny> Being an average Full Back. But a World Class Kicker.

No Halfpenny for me is one of the best FBs in the world

RiscaGame wrote:Have to have the ones who have achieved the most with Team Wales, so Lydiate still. If it was a Dragons team, I'd have fozzy over Lydiate easily.

A bit of a cult isn't he down Newport way? Remember him on the telly decking two oppos in rapid succession; Bang, Bang, sit down both of ewes.

RubyGuby wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:RubyGuby

Re Neil Jekins being an average OH. but  a World Class kicker.

Wouold you say the same about Leigh Halfpenny> Being an average Full Back. But a World Class Kicker.

No Halfpenny for me is one of the best FBs in the world

Lookout SH, if Wales get their back 3 to click.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Have to have the ones who have achieved the most with Team Wales, so Lydiate still. If it was a Dragons team, I'd have fozzy over Lydiate easily.

A bit of a cult isn't he down Newport way? Remember him on the telly decking two oppos in rapid succession; Bang, Bang, sit down both of ewes.

Yep. Still involved in a sense there, as he takes injured players around the Bisley boxes to butter up the prawn sandwich brigade.

RubyGuby wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:RubyGuby

Re Neil Jekins being an average OH. but  a World Class kicker.

Wouold you say the same about Leigh Halfpenny> Being an average Full Back. But a World Class Kicker.

No Halfpenny for me is one of the best FBs in the world

Yes he is. He's just criminally under used by cement head. I'll be interesting to see if we do use him better in our "new attacking style".

RiscaGame wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:RubyGuby

Re Neil Jekins being an average OH. but  a World Class kicker.

Wouold you say the same about Leigh Halfpenny> Being an average Full Back. But a World Class Kicker.

No Halfpenny for me is one of the best FBs in the world

Yes he is. He's just criminally under used by cement head. I'll be interesting to see if we do use him better in our "new attacking style".

On the wing would be best.

15 Gareth Thomas
14 Ieuan Evans
13 George North
12 Scott Gibbs
11 Shane Williams
10 Jonathan Davies - yes he played for Wales in 1995 he's eligible!
9 Robert Howley
8 Scott Quinell
7 Martyn Williams
6 Craig Quinell
5 Alun Wyn-Jones
4 Gareth Llewellyn
3 Adam Jones
2 Garin Jenkins
1 Gethin Jenkins

16 Alan Bateman
17 Neil Jenkins
18 Robert Jones
19 Colin Charvis
20 Ian Evans
21 David Young
22 Richard Hibbard
23 Mike Griffiths