Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

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Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

Good at everything? I'd suggest he's pretty average at most things and exceptional at none.

Haskell gets a bad rap but he's physicality and aggressive tackling is outstanding. He regularly disrupts attacking play by knocking the guy back and this is often as good as turnover ball.

Clifford has looked a better player in his cameos than Robshaw has in a year.

You just can't be that average and slow and expect others to fill in for these deficiencies.

As I said, I rate Robshaw but he's reached his level.

Robshaw reached his level the day he started playing for England; that's the point. He is a solid journeyman player, consistent, professional and the perfect Captain under the last regime which espoused values Eddie Jones has probably never heard of.
Reading what Jones said to Wood about his averageness one can only expect that as soon as an alternative shows itself that brings any sort of X Factor Robshaw, and Haskell, will be done.

Not sure you get to play this many times for England by being average at everything! Hes a much better player than Haskell at 6 or 7.Flashy doesn't mean better but hes even done flashy better lately. Clifford is class though. I have a feeling this is another T Youngs scenario.

Robshaw deserves his caps, he's been a solid pro.

We just need better and there is now better coming through too. Tom Youngs is a completely different scenario, he was poor at his core roles and should never have been given a cap.

I'll never get your view for either!

Haha...the beauty of an opinions forum fella! It would be boring if we all agreed

In fairness, I think most of you have a short memory. Robshaw was playing brilliantly for quins at 6 before the six nations. 

Yeah he's not been great for England but you know what, players dip in and out of form.

I've said it before, the side will stay more or less the same for these next to games.

The changes will come for the aussie trip. Clifford may well then Make one of the flank spots his own.

And Ewers will be looked at aswell.

I do agree with Sgt aswell though. We praise Robshaw for his workrate, his tackling etc. But that's a norm in the SH. Down there they must do more.

Ie breakdown master or ball carrier etc.
Haskell has that in a small part in his physicality, Clifford has much more the skills that Jones will desire.

I also think it's odd that Kvesic is not fancied as he has a high work rate but is becoming so dominant at the breakdown.

Kvesic for 7

I'm not doubting his club form Nathan.

Here's one guy's thoughts on England's attacking plan under Jones.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/03/08/anatomy-of-an-eddie-jones-try/

Sgt Pooly if it's down to getting rid of Robshaw or Haskell first I would take out Haskell first.

People say he's physical, a good ball carrier etc. He's taken none of the pressure off Billy in the ball carrying department in this year's 6 nations. I would say his ball carrying ability is a bit overrated.

Plus there's his poor discipline.

Clifford has a much better rugby brain than Haskell too.

Clifford just like Itoje is a breath of fresh air that needs to shake up the pack.

I know there are some posters reluctant to see change - why on earth there are when England failed miserably in the RWC I still don't understand, but still it must happen.

I would start Clifford and Itoje in the pack against Wales.

You'll not see Clifford start Beshocked until the summer tour.

I expect to see Kruis and Itoje in the engine room though. Itoje was excellent v Ireland and its his shirt.
One thing not many have focused on with Itoje is his support play. Quite often as a player went into contact it was Itoje next man driving him forward. I was impressed.

Haskell offers more than Robshaw, is that an actual debate?

Haskell is a show pony. Robshaw is quality. That is all.

So is Mark Wilson

I agree that Robshaw is AP quality.

Disappointing geordiefalcon if true. Discipline will be key. I don't know Clifford's disciplinary record by I assume he doesn't have a bad record.

It's because Itoje has got a good rugby brain. So has Clifford.

Sgt Pooly depends what you want from a player. Both Haskell and Robshaw have their pros and cons but as I said before - I would have wanted Haskell to take pressure off Billy as a ball carrier but he hasn't.

Robshaw was used as a lineout option vs Ireland.

Another alternative solution is this.....

6.Itoje
7.Clifford
8.Billy

Take out both Robshaw and Haskell...

Not my preference but an option.

He makes his tackles, he makes his carries, he makes his turnovers, he hits rucks all day (rather than goal posts), he makes tries. I really don't know what more you would want? Haskell has been decent to good in this 6Ns touch unlucky with getting a yellow last game though now the yc record holder for England, but his performances are very erratic (even in 1 game!).

An option beshocked but if we win this game we probably have a 6 Nations title and the chance for a GS. No ones going to make 2 changes in the back row.

He does none of those things to a good standard bar tackling.

He's an average International player who would struggle to get in any other decent International side.

He's arguably the slowest flanker in world rugby.

Haskell isn't much better but at least he brings physicality and aggression.

We need better at 6 & 7 tbh but Robshaw is the first to go imo.

You couldn't have a brainless lump like Haskell in the backrow without some ball players to balance things out (see Robshaw's pass for the try v Ireland).

No 7 & 1/2 I agree but to do that we need to keep down the penalty count.

Something Haskell has been incapable of doing. With another ref he might have picked up another YC vs Italy.

I said what I would do. Bring in Clifford, take out Haskell. Leave Kruis and Itoje in the 2nd row, no need to rock the boat by bringing back Launchbury.

Itoje does not deserve to be dropped.

Sgt Pooly Haskell isn't exactly known for his pace either.

I don't know for sure but I expect that Clifford is faster than Haskell.

If Launchbury's fit he's a step up that's what I'm thinking. Itoje played well but he's not to that level yet. If there's a doubt on fitness start Itoje. Clifford is fast for a back row.

Step up? Sure.... you think Launchbury would have done much better vs Ireland?

To that level? What level is that exactly?

The reality is at the moment Launchbury should be 3rd in the lock pecking order based on current form.

Launchbury is not a world class player, he's not someone who England have missed with his injury. Might as well stick with Itoje who had a strong debut partnered with his team mate.

As I said before he's not just Launchbury vs Itoje, it's who I think would work best with Kruis and in that area I think there is no contest - Itoje all the way.

Launchbury is better for me, he's the nearest to a world class player we have, along with Hartley, Brown and a fast approaching Vunipola. None are there currently. I go back to if Launchbury is fit he's the proven international player. I don't think Itoje will let us down but there's no need to risk him if there's no need.

I do take your point on the partnership though, bit like Alan Hansen getting half the caps he should have had as a centre half for Scotland. The better player but benched a lot of the time as he was up against a club partnership who knew each others games inside out.

You think Launchbury is on par with Billy? Launchbury isn't as important to England as Billy. With Launchbury injured, there was no worry because Itoje stepped up. If Billy gets injured then it becomes a much bigger problem.

Last time Launchbury won a man of the match at international level it was one of the biggest jokes in international rugby. He also missed a tackle which led to an Aussie try too.

Launchbury doesn't influence a game like Billy or even Brown have. I wouldn't call either world class though.

I don't care if Launchbury was good a year ago - I care about now. You talk about proof - Itoje had a strong debut vs Ireland, still things to work on but needs to be trusted to kick on.

It's just as much of a risk to pick a lock whose been struggling for fitness and form in the first 3 games of the 6 nations rather than the young lock whose been playing well in his limited appearances.

I don't think there's a whole lot between Itoje and Launchbury at the moment given Launchbury has been injured.

I do think that Itoje would offer more impact off the bench than Joe, and when the margin between them is so small, I think I'd look to have the greater impact off the bench

Somewhat similar to the Marler/Mako debate

Bambam not a whole lot? I assume you've not been watching any of the 6 nations so far.

So far in the 3 games

Itoje - not picked vs Scotland, strong off the bench vs Italy, strong start vs Ireland
Launchbury - poor against Scotland, taken off at half time because not fully fit, good vs Italy but so were the whole bench, missed the Ireland game due to injury.

Neither has played that much in the 6 nations so far but Itoje holds the advantage as he's stayed fit.

Launchbury has not shown anything that suggests he'll be fit and firing against Wales.

Different to the Marler/Mako debate as both of them have been fit throughout the 6 nations.

I would suggest that the bench is the best option for Launchbury as he made a good impact vs Italy off the bench and he's been struggling for fitness.

So the bottom line is would you be happy going in to a game v Wales with two youngsters in Itoje and Clifford. Itoje has shown v Ireland hes not bothered about the "arena" he thrives on it.

Is Clifford in the same boat? Would you be happy with him starting?

beshocked wrote: You think Launchbury is on par with Billy? Launchbury isn't as important to England as Billy. With Launchbury injured, there was no worry because Itoje stepped up. If Billy gets injured then it becomes a much bigger problem.

Last time Launchbury won a man of the match at international level it was one of the biggest jokes in international rugby. He also missed a tackle which led to an Aussie try too.

Launchbury doesn't influence a game like Billy or even Brown have. I wouldn't call either world class though.

I don't care if Launchbury was good a year ago - I care about now. You talk about proof - Itoje had a strong debut vs Ireland, still things to work on but needs to be trusted to kick on.

It's just as much of a risk to pick a lock whose been struggling for fitness and form in the first 3 games of the 6 nations rather than the young lock whose been playing well in his limited appearances.

I was talking about the pecking order in international rugby and how that relates to world class. So yes Launchbury is one of the players in the England team who are at that level. So is B Vunipola. Launchbury is the best lock we havee so if he's fit I'd play him. Itoje is good but not as good and persoanlly I'd want our best players on the pitch to maximise our chances.

Launchbury is a better player than Itoje imo. Haskell is pretty quick for flanker, much quicker than Robshaw anyway.

Definitely quicker than Robshaw.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Launchbury is a better player than Itoje imo. Haskell is pretty quick for flanker, much quicker than Robshaw anyway.

Robshaw is quicker upstairs. For a 'slow runner' he tends to be at the right place at the right time.

beshocked wrote:Bambam not a whole lot? I assume you've not been watching any of the 6 nations so far.

So far in the 3 games

Itoje - not picked vs Scotland, strong off the bench vs Italy, strong start vs Ireland
Launchbury - poor against Scotland, taken off at half time because not fully fit, good vs Italy but so were the whole bench, missed the Ireland game due to injury.

Neither has played that much in the 6 nations so far but Itoje holds the advantage as he's stayed fit.

Launchbury has not shown anything that suggests he'll be fit and firing against Wales.

Different to the Marler/Mako debate as both of them have been fit throughout the 6 nations.

I would suggest that the bench is the best option for Launchbury as he made a good impact vs Italy off the bench and he's been struggling for fitness.

Yes beshocked, my opinion is different to yours because I've been watching Come Dine With Me instead of the 6Ns

Launchbury is not on par with Billy. I know you're a big fan of Launchbury but come on.... Billy has been our best forward in the last year. You just need to look at the stats to see that. Some things are subjective, Launchbury being on par with Billy is not.

If we talk about overall international careers then of course Launchbury is ahead of Itoje but I am talking about now.

Both Kruis and Itoje ahead of Launchbury on current form. You can talk about Launchbury's class all you want - he wasn't missed vs Ireland.

A players' importance be can measured just as much by their absence as their presence.

England didn't need to start him vs Ireland and they don't vs Wales. If Itoje had struggled vs Ireland then Launchbury would have a strong case to be parachuted back in.


Geordiefalcon

Yes. This is not a first cap for either.

Yes I would be happy with Clifford starting, he's in the same boat as Itoje albeit slightly less experienced in the biggest games.

I see it just as much as a risk picking a penalty machine like Haskell as a talented youngster like Clifford whose knocking on the door.

Bambam it honestly wouldn't surprise me if you have been watching Come Dine with me if you think Launchbury has been on par with Itoje in the 6 nations.

Not sure what you mean by on par. I'm talking in terms of how they compare with their interntional rivals.

Why would you ignore the rest of Launchburys career and focus on the last 3 games (or 2 for each?). The second Vunipola has a bad game you won't be calling on the next in line as he's a quality player. I know you rate Itoje as the best lock we have but if he's fit we have to start Launchbury.

Robshaw is quicker upstairs. For a 'slow runner' he tends to be at the right place at the right time.

While I love watching Brand Haskell (he reminds me of a Labrador unleashed in a pie shop) I must agree with lostinwales, Robshaw is a bit like dogshit - all over the place, turning up when you least expect it and you wonder 'how the hell did it get there'?

You put Launchbury in the same bracket as Billy when Billy has been the more influential player in the last year.

I focus on the last 3 games like any player. It's why I wasn't against seeing the likes of Barritt and Wigglesworth dropped. It's why I criticised a decision to pick Farrell Jr when he was in poor form in 2014 AIs and in a club game vs Munster. He wasn't fully fit just like Launchbury isn't fully fit now.

Hodgson won man of the match vs Clermont yet was dropped, Sarries lost the subsequent game vs Munster partly because of Farrell who should have never been picked. That's poor management.

Itoje is the 2nd best lock behind Kruis at the moment going by form. Both Kruis and Itoje as a 2nd row combo I think are the best available to England.

If Billy has two poor games in a row then I would consider dropping him to the bench, can't stick with someone not performing, would give him an incentive to win his place back.

Plus England need to develop another 8.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure what you mean by on par. I'm talking in terms of how they compare with their interntional rivals.

Why would you ignore the rest of Launchburys career and focus on the last 3 games (or 2 for each?). The second Vunipola has a bad game you won't be calling on the next in line as he's a quality player. I know you rate Itoje as the best lock we have but if he's fit we have to start Launchbury.

I agree with this. Billy and Joe are two completely different players picked to do two completely different jobs.  

Itoje has done a very decent job for a guy feeling his way into international rugby, but Launchbury has shown the heights he can reach at international rugby.  What do they say?  Form is temporary and class is permanent.  Make no mistake though, I believe Itoje will get there and if Eddie did pick him I would be perfectly happy to get behind the lad as a justified selection.  

I guess I don't see a particularly negative choice to be made in all of this.

Personally if Jones decides Itoje is the better choice fine by me. The question I ask is where is the consistency of argument? I thought to play in the big games (and it doesn't get much bigger than a potential title decider) you had to prove yourself. Given Ireland were suitable opponents to start a new player you can't prove yourself vs them surely? And are we really saying a player has proven themselves with a cameo and a start? Not the arguments I would use but if we're following the logic...

Of course we now have to consider short term form over everything again. Ie we need to drop Joseph for Daly, Hartley for George, Marler for Vunipola, Launchbury for Itoje, Haskell for Clifford, Robshaw for Ewers, Youngs for Care or Care for Youngs whichever had the better cameo, etc etc. When comes the time to build consistency of selection and build experience?

TrailApe wrote:

Robshaw is quicker upstairs. For a 'slow runner' he tends to be at the right place at the right time.

While I love watching Brand Haskell (he reminds me of a Labrador unleashed in a pie shop) I must agree with lostinwales, Robshaw is a bit like dogshit - all over the place, turning up when you least expect it and you wonder 'how the hell did it get there'?

I'll tell you how it got there! That is your dog - on your leash - attached to your hand - and you ain't doing your duty in picking up that sheet with the proverbial sheet scooper.

You gotta fine coming!

beshocked wrote:You put Launchbury in the same bracket as Billy when Billy has been the more influential player in the last year.

I focus on the last 3 games like any player. It's why I wasn't against seeing the likes of Barritt and Wigglesworth dropped. It's why I criticised a decision to pick Farrell Jr when he was in poor form in 2014 AIs and in a club game vs Munster. He wasn't fully fit just like Launchbury isn't fully fit now.

Hodgson won man of the match vs Clermont yet was dropped, Sarries lost the subsequent game vs Munster partly because of Farrell who should have never been picked. That's poor management.

Itoje is the 2nd best lock behind Kruis at the moment going by form. Both Kruis and Itoje as a 2nd row combo I think are the best available to England.

If Billy has two poor games in a row then I would consider dropping him to the bench, can't stick with someone not performing, would give him an incentive to win his place back.

Plus England need to develop another 8.

If you only focus on the last three games, how can a player ever get himself back into form? We'll be forever chopping and changing and there will be no continuity in the team. I agree that if a player isn't performing over a long period of time, he should be given a rest, but I believe you've got to view players in overall context. If you know that a guy has a lot of talent, you can be pretty confident to back him to come good again. Three games just seems like an awfully short window of opportunity IMO.

Well yes, Cumbrian. But it's a very dicey exercise to keep playing the 'he'll come good if we give him just one more game..... and one more game....and one more game'

There has to be a more ruthless cut-off for players that have shown so much in the past but who might be holding back development by a coach hoping that 'one more game' will be the return to form everyone wants to see.

But maybe I'm just thinking of Ireland here..... carry on people.

Bambam

Of course you believe it's to do with Saracens.....that's why I want Wigglesworth to start at 9, Barritt at 12, Fraser 7,Goode at 15... wait a minute.. no I am not.

I want England to play the most suitable team to win the game.

Launchbury is a good player but he's not been fit and hasn't been playing as well as either Kruis or Itoje. That's why I would bench Launchbury. Launchbury has been unfortunate with his lack of fitness but that's a good thing for Itoje.

I don't think Itoje is the best lock in the world, in Europe or indeed England. I do think he's the most suitable lock to start next to Kruis vs Wales though.

Eddie Jones decision to start a not fully fit Launchbury vs Scotland was genius...

SecretFly wrote:Well yes, Cumbrian.  But it's a very dicey exercise to keep playing the 'he'll come good if we give him just one more game..... and one more game....and one more game'

There has to be a more ruthless cut-off for players that have shown so much in the past but who might be holding back development by a coach hoping that 'one more game' will be the return to form everyone wants to see.

But maybe I'm just thinking of Ireland here..... carry on people.

You saw something similar under Lancaster with Ashton. Played below par for a while in England colours but was chosen and given the chance to regain his form for a good while. He was surely about to get the chop but his club form then offered him a final chance. When he was dropped there was a lot of criticism that it came too soon still. You can never win as a coach.

SecretFly wrote:Well yes, Cumbrian.  But it's a very dicey exercise to keep playing the 'he'll come good if we give him just one more game..... and one more game....and one more game'

There has to be a more ruthless cut-off for players that have shown so much in the past but who might be holding back development by a coach hoping that 'one more game' will be the return to form everyone wants to see.

But maybe I'm just thinking of Ireland here..... carry on people.

Aye, you'll get no arguments from me in that regard. There definitely needs to be a point when you let players go, but 'three games and you're out' seems a little arbitrary. Fans, coaches and general commentators generally come to a consensus when this is, the art of managing a team is to know when and how to go about change. Something that I would say (even as a fellow Cumbrian) Lancaster failed at.

TrailApe wrote:

Robshaw is quicker upstairs. For a 'slow runner' he tends to be at the right place at the right time.

While I love watching Brand Haskell (he reminds me of a Labrador unleashed in a pie shop) I must agree with lostinwales, Robshaw is a bit like dogshit - all over the place, turning up when you least expect it and you wonder 'how the hell did it get there'?

Love both metaphors