The Final Six Nations weekend..!

The final weekend again comprises of the same three matches as last year though at the opposite locations

Wales face Italy first up in Cardiff, then Ireland face Scotland in Dublin and finally France will meet England in Paris.

Same order as last year. Same match ups, different venues and different circumstances. Though we could see Wales, France or England as possible champions.

Will we get the exciting day we did last year?

Why are the fixtures, or at least the order of the fixtures not changed...?

maestegmafia wrote:The final weekend again comprises of the same three matches as last year though at the opposite locations

Wales face Italy first up in Cardiff, then Ireland face Scotland in Dublin and finally France will meet England in Paris.

Same order as last year. Same match ups, different venues and different circumstances. Though we could see Wales, Scotland, France or England as possible champions.

Will we get the exciting day we did last year?

Why are the fixtures, or at least the order of the fixtures not changed...?

Well I never - people giving us a chance to win the whole kaboodle after one win in 2 years lol

I would take another win first :-)

Riskysports wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The final weekend again comprises of the same three matches as last year though at the opposite locations

Wales face Italy first up in Cardiff, then Ireland face Scotland in Dublin and finally France will meet England in Paris.

Same order as last year. Same match ups, different venues and different circumstances. Though we could see Wales, Scotland, France or England as possible champions.

Will we get the exciting day we did last year?

Why are the fixtures, or at least the order of the fixtures not changed...?

Well I never - people giving us a chance to win the whole kaboodle after one win in 2 years lol

I would take another win first :-)

Actually I think Scotland is a mathematical impossibility. Might make top three of you win the last three games though

Just for a change England's last game in the 6N is away from home, although unusually there is no SH ref allocated to the game which statistically gives England a better chance. Although with France, it is anyone's guess what type of game it will be.

maestegmafia wrote:Why are the fixtures, or at least the order of the fixtures not changed...?

I thought it was a bit crap that the order hadn't been changed. Of course, as it turns out it's not the same as it was last season, with a team from each match in with a shout of winning the tournament - but what if it had been? Why should England again have the advantage of knowing how the other two countries had done, and thus what they needed to do? Why should Wales again be playing 'blind'?

The three matches on the last day should kick off at the same time. This isn't (or shouldn't be) about the viewing public, it's about the teams involved, and there's a trophy at stake. No team should be able to take the field knowing what score / result they need.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Why are the fixtures, or at least the order of the fixtures not changed...?

I thought it was a bit crap that the order hadn't been changed. Of course, as it turns out it's not the same as it was last season, with a team from each match in with a shout of winning the tournament - but what if it had been? Why should England again have the advantage of knowing how the other two countries had done, and thus what they needed to do? Why should Wales again be playing 'blind'?

The three matches on the last day should kick off at the same time. This isn't (or shouldn't be) about the viewing public, it's about the teams involved, and there's a trophy at stake. No team should be able to take the field knowing what score / result they need.

Money money money. TV money.

Oh I know. But you see my point, don't you? Can you imagine teams standing for it if it was a football tournament?

Didn't do England any good last year though did it

Wont be relevant this year anyway.
Whoever wins between Wales and England will be champions

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Oh I know. But you see my point, don't you? Can you imagine teams standing for it if it was a football tournament?

The English domestic rugby league don't stand for it with all games kicking off at the same time.

Of course it's solved by all teams aiming for the biggest win margin possible. As Geoff said, doesn't always help. It could be a detriment in some cases as games are forced too early. To be honest the only time I've ever really heard any complaints in 2007(?) when France won by going for a last minute try (and Ireland did the same but gave the ball away to Italy for a breakaway try). If the games had been reversed France may have kicked it out and Ireland may have held to the ball, rather than trying to force a score they didn't need.

Isn't there a two year cycle where in year two all the matches are mirror images of year one?

The order definitely favours whoever plays Italy last. Wales have a very easy match as Italy can only really be competitive in their first game. After that they progressively fade away. We should all have equal turns at putting 70 points on them in the last game.

englandglory4ever wrote:The order definitely favours whoever plays Italy last.

The point is we're playing Italy last, but also playing them first, if that makes sense.

In theory, Wales could go out against Italy all guns blazing looking for a big score, play sloppily as a result and win by, say, 8 points, when in the final shakeup, a win by 10 points would have been enough; if Wales were playing last, they would know they needed a 10-point win, could play more sensibly as a result, and (in theory) be more likely to win by the required margin.

It's not just that it's an advantage to be playing last, it's also that it's a disadvantage to be playing first.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:The order definitely favours whoever plays Italy last.

The point is we're playing Italy last, but also playing them first, if that makes sense.

In theory, Wales could go out against Italy all guns blazing looking for a big score, play sloppily as a result and win by, say, 8 points, when in the final shakeup, a win by 10 points would have been enough; if Wales were playing last, they would know they needed a 10-point win, could play more sensibly as a result, and (in theory) be more likely to win by the required margin.

It's not just that it's an advantage to be playing last, it's also that it's a disadvantage to be playing first.

Italy are a shambles. Any side can go to the italian well and 'drink' as many points as they like on the last day.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:The order definitely favours whoever plays Italy last.

The point is we're playing Italy last, but also playing them first, if that makes sense.

In theory, Wales could go out against Italy all guns blazing looking for a big score, play sloppily as a result and win by, say, 8 points, when in the final shakeup, a win by 10 points would have been enough; if Wales were playing last, they would know they needed a 10-point win, could play more sensibly as a result, and (in theory) be more likely to win by the required margin.

It's not just that it's an advantage to be playing last, it's also that it's a disadvantage to be playing first.

I'm fairly sure that playing Italy as the last game on home turf is a far bigger advantage than playing France away, no matter what time the games are being played, where points difference is concerned.

I don't think it actually matters this year, unless my maths is all wrong. If Wales beat England then they only need the win against Italy to lift the trophy. If they lose to England they can't win the tournament anyway, regardless of the result in Paris. Or am I missing something?

I did say in theory. But you see the point, don't you?

Hoonercat wrote:I don't think it actually matters this year, unless my maths is all wrong. If Wales beat England then they only need the win against Italy to lift the trophy. If they lose to England they can't win the tournament anyway, regardless of the result in Paris. Or am I missing something?

If England can beat Wales then France and England are in the chase

maestegmafia wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I don't think it actually matters this year, unless my maths is all wrong. If Wales beat England then they only need the win against Italy to lift the trophy. If they lose to England they can't win the tournament anyway, regardless of the result in Paris. Or am I missing something?

If England can beat Wales then France and England are in the chase

which makes the order of the matches irrelevant as they play each other. Though France could be out of the hunt by then if they lose to Scotland. If they do, and England beat Wales, then England would be guaranteed the title before the final round of matches wouldn't they?

England fold in Paris, Wales cream Italy and Scots sneak Irish. Happy Days.

I can easily predict England getting beaten by a France side (who lost against Scotland) and denying us the title/GS. We do love a last game defeat..

Breadvan wrote:I can easily predict England getting beaten by a France side (who lost against Scotland) and denying us the title/GS. We do love a last game defeat..

Well if i remember right. The last time England played France in the last game France won in the dying seconds of the game.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I did say in theory. But you see the point, don't you?

Not really. You're suggesting that Wales are hard done by, but they have got the easiest match they could hope for as their last game. Would you rather they had France away for their last game but played later in the day?

Knowing what you have to do in the last game is always an advantage whichever way you want to spin it Hooner. Its why most major European competitions insist that the last round of matches KO at the same time - Irrespective of who you are playing. Just try and accept that, not sure why its so difficult for you.

Hoonercat wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I did say in theory. But you see the point, don't you?

Not really. You're suggesting that Wales are hard done by, but they have got the easiest match they could hope for as their last game. Would you rather they had France away for their last game but played later in the day?

What I'm saying is that the matches should all kick off at the same time, so there's no possibility of the team(s) playing last knowing what score / result they need to win the tournament, having already seen what's happened in the other two matches. No team should have that advantage.

I might be wrong here, but if England beat Wales and Scotland beat France in the fourth round doesn't that guarantee England the championship?


The table would look like this going into the last weekend:

England 8pts
Wales 5pts
Scotland 4pts (above France on points difference)
France 4pts
Ireland 3pts
Italy 0pts

On the flip side of that, Wales beat England and they are 99% guaranteed the title.

RubyGuby wrote:Knowing what you have to do in the last game is always an advantage whichever way you want to spin it Hooner. Its why most major European competitions insist that the last round of matches KO at the same time - Irrespective of who you are playing. Just try and accept that, not sure why its so difficult for you.

I can accept that come the final Sunday, it's not going to make the slightest difference to any of the teams involved. If Wales beat England and Italy then they win the tournament, regardless of what happens later in the day. If England beat Wales then Wales cannot win the tournament so playing early makes no difference. So no, it's not always an advantage, not sure why its so difficult for you

Its so difficult for me because you fail to mention the scenario if England and Wales draw and if I'm honest I think you have it within you to get a draw; unless of course the old Pontypool lad at number 8 pulls up early with a hamstring problem

RubyGuby wrote:Its so difficult for me because you fail to mention the scenario if England and Wales draw and if I'm honest I think you have it within you to get a draw; unless of course the old Pontypool lad at number 8 pulls up early with a hamstring problem

A draw still has no relevance, except that it puts more pressure on England against France once Wales beat Italy in the early game. It makes absolutely no difference to the team that plays in the earlier game, not sure why you're struggling to understand that?

Of course, if England and Wales draw AND France and England draw then it would come down to points difference (assuming of course Wales beat Italy), so maybe Ruby has a point. Pretty unlikely though?

Given England's recent record at pressure games, I'd much rather they had the early match. Swap?

At the end of the day, all teams should be aiming to win regardless of when they kick off.

Personally, I think it's brilliant the way the last day is structured.

Let's not get bogged down in the specifics of this season. It is obvious that if you are playing the very last game of the tournament you can have a specific target in order to win the championship. That's unfair.

I have to be honest, as dissapointing as last years last day was when in Italy, the excitement of the Wales v Italy game, then the corresponding 2 fixtures culminated in one of the best rugby day experiences i've ever had, 200 Welsh fans rueing the Scottish for rolling over, then cheering on the French and celebrating the end result.

Sounds petty I know, but it was so easy to get swept up in the histeria...

If the final weekend is as exciting as that this year, regardless of who wins I think it'll be good for rugby and the 6N!

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I don't think it actually matters this year, unless my maths is all wrong. If Wales beat England then they only need the win against Italy to lift the trophy. If they lose to England they can't win the tournament anyway, regardless of the result in Paris. Or am I missing something?

If England can beat Wales then France and England are in the chase

which makes the order of the matches irrelevant as they play each other. Though France could be out of the hunt by then if they lose to Scotland. If they do, and England beat Wales, then England would be guaranteed the title before the final round of matches wouldn't they?

Yes like in 2011 when they then played Ireland in the last round.

Hoonercat wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I did say in theory. But you see the point, don't you?

Not really. You're suggesting that Wales are hard done by, but they have got the easiest match they could hope for as their last game. Would you rather they had France away for their last game but played later in the day?

The point is not who they are playing but when. Wales play their game first, England play theirs last, like last year.

It's a shame that the order of the three matches wasn't changed as if the championship had gone to the last game as it did last year, the team playing first have a lesser advantage than the team playing last, to know what needs to be done to win the title.

A bit premature this topic, with a couple of possible scenarios depending on results in Round 4.

Round 4
Ireland beating Italy, or Italy beating Ireland won't make any difference, they've both lost at least two matches already.  Dead rubber.

If Wales beat England, then they move into the driving seat on championship points, with any kind of a win against Italy sufficient for them to win the Championship.   So it could be all over by Round 4, and the final weekend, a bit of a damp squib.  Wales will also have the advantage of playing Italy in the Millennium first up in Round 5, making the final two matches complete dead rubbers.

France should beat Scotland but they'll still only be on 6 points, and would have to rely on points difference to overtake England - which if England beat Wales would make for an exciting Grand Final match.  The earlier two Round 5 matches would be dead rubbers.

In short, if Wales win in Round 4, the Championship is theirs.
If England/France win in Round 4, then the last match in Round 5 would be exciting.

Nothing like last year at all really.

Unless France thrash Scotland, they'd need to beat England by a lot to overturn the points difference in that scenario though Pot. At the moment their points difference is -6, England's +48.

So even if France win by 15 and England by only a point, France would need to win by 20 to overturn the deficit.

Maes, pretty sure Wales could have pipped England to the title had Ireland beaten England by a large large margin in 2011, and Wales then smashed France in the final match? Of course Wales were promptly well beaten by France, so the point is moot...

Actually, just realised a draw between England and Wales would put them and France all with a chance of winning the title on the final day...

Pot Hale wrote:A bit premature this topic, with a couple of possible scenarios depending on results in Round 4.

Round 4
Ireland beating Italy, or Italy beating Ireland won't make any difference, they've both lost at least two matches already.  Dead rubber.

If Wales beat England, then they move into the driving seat on championship points, with any kind of a win against Italy sufficient for them to win the Championship.   So it could be all over by Round 4, and the final weekend, a bit of a damp squib.  Wales will also have the advantage of playing Italy in the Millennium first up in Round 5, making the final two matches complete dead rubbers.

France should beat Scotland but they'll still only be on 6 points, and would have to rely on points difference to overtake England - which if England beat Wales would make for an exciting Grand Final match.  The earlier two Round 5 matches would be dead rubbers.

In short, if Wales win in Round 4, the Championship is theirs.
If England/France win in Round 4, then the last match in Round 5 would be exciting.

Nothing like last year at all really.

France should beat Scotland? How? They are utterly dreadful and struggled to contain Italy at home whereas Scotland defeated Italy convincingly in Rome.


If current performance is anything to go by Scotland should beat France.

That's a good point Radge - Loooking forward to that game, best of luck mate - I forecast 36-20 to you guys for the Italy game - you have what it takes to beat this French side

maestegmafia wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I don't think it actually matters this year, unless my maths is all wrong. If Wales beat England then they only need the win against Italy to lift the trophy. If they lose to England they can't win the tournament anyway, regardless of the result in Paris. Or am I missing something?

If England can beat Wales then France and England are in the chase

which makes the order of the matches irrelevant as they play each other. Though France could be out of the hunt by then if they lose to Scotland. If they do, and England beat Wales, then England would be guaranteed the title before the final round of matches wouldn't they?

Yes like in 2011 when they then played Ireland in the last round.

England weren't guaranteed the Championship in 2011. Ireland's win let Wales back into it, but Wales lost to France and England lifted the trophy in their hotel.

Basically, the tournament needs England to beat Wales so at least we have the drama of a Grand Slam game on the final day (and the final game at that). I'm sure we can ALL agree on this...

robbo277 wrote:Basically, the tournament needs England to beat Wales so at least we have the drama of a Grand Slam game on the final day (and the final game at that). I'm sure we can ALL agree on this...

englandglory4ever wrote:The order definitely favours whoever plays Italy last.  Wales have a very easy match as Italy can only really be competitive in their first game. After that they progressively fade away. We should all have equal turns at putting 70 points on them in the last game.

Though last year it favoured whoever played Scotland last.

This year it favours whoever plays Italy.

If England and France win this weekend, then France would have to win by a huge margin against England in Paris to secure the title. Unlikely since at the moment they don't seem to know where the try line is.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Why are the fixtures, or at least the order of the fixtures not changed...?

I thought it was a bit crap that the order hadn't been changed. Of course, as it turns out it's not the same as it was last season, with a team from each match in with a shout of winning the tournament - but what if it had been? Why should England again have the advantage of knowing how the other two countries had done, and thus what they needed to do? Why should Wales again be playing 'blind'?

The three matches on the last day should kick off at the same time. This isn't (or shouldn't be) about the viewing public, it's about the teams involved, and there's a trophy at stake. No team should be able to take the field knowing what score / result they need.

Actually isn't it all about the viewing public? It'd certainly be tricky to fund the tournament, pro unions, and national sides if not for them.

If they're not playing rugby for people to watch then what's the point?

Alex_Germany wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:The order definitely favours whoever plays Italy last.  Wales have a very easy match as Italy can only really be competitive in their first game. After that they progressively fade away. We should all have equal turns at putting 70 points on them in the last game.

Though last year it favoured whoever played Scotland last.

This year it favours whoever plays Italy.

If England and France win this weekend, then France would have to win by a huge margin against England in Paris to secure the title. Unlikely since at the moment they don't seem to know where the try line is.

That really depends on a number of factors - For example, If Wales beat England by 30 pts to 3 then that would wipe out their points difference over France in the battle for runners up

Likewise if the French run up a score v Scotland

yappysnap wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Why are the fixtures, or at least the order of the fixtures not changed...?

I thought it was a bit crap that the order hadn't been changed. Of course, as it turns out it's not the same as it was last season, with a team from each match in with a shout of winning the tournament - but what if it had been? Why should England again have the advantage of knowing how the other two countries had done, and thus what they needed to do? Why should Wales again be playing 'blind'?

The three matches on the last day should kick off at the same time. This isn't (or shouldn't be) about the viewing public, it's about the teams involved, and there's a trophy at stake. No team should be able to take the field knowing what score / result they need.

Actually isn't it all about the viewing public? It'd certainly be tricky to fund the tournament, pro unions, and national sides if not for them.

If they're not playing rugby for people to watch then what's the point?

If the teams were just playing for recreation and not for a trophy, would you want to watch?

I strongly hold the opinion that it should be about the integrity of the game and its key principals not about about making it so more people want to watch it.  Professionalism should be a by-product of the fact that people are willing to pay to watch it, not the goal.

As for Luckless' question, I certainly don't watch the AI to find out if we can win back the Hillary Shield (edit: I watch to see us compete against the All Blacks [the reason I used the All Blacks is because they're the only ones I can remember the trophy name]).

Okay, forget I said trophy. What I was getting at is that we watch rugby matches because there's something at stake, because it's a competition. Having staggered kick-offs on the final day skews that competition in favour of the team(s) playing last. I don't think the viewer / viewing figures should come before fairness for the competitors.

robbo277 wrote:Basically, the tournament needs England to beat Wales so at least we have the drama of a Grand Slam game on the final day (and the final game at that). I'm sure we can ALL agree on this...

Maybe but its highly unlikely and anyway, the last team you'd want to back in a GS struggle is England.