Slow motion replays - Haskell says they are unfair on players making late tackles..!

Avidly reading the build up to this weekends trip down to Twickenham, nearly everyone publishing that James Haskell doesn't like slow motion replays, after being yellow carded from a slow motion replay of his late tackle on Connor Murray.

Haskell claims, “the slo-mo gives the wrong impression. It is not great doing that kind of stuff because it is making a spectacle out of it when it doesn’t need to be. Reviewing is a good idea but playing it on the big screen, making it a big circus, is not constructive. Any tackle looks pretty bad when seen like that, slowed right down. You see people’s heads go backwards and all that kind of stuff.”

He assures us his reaction and press statement are nothing to do with him getting a yellow card last week

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/03/07/six-nations-2016-james-haskell-calls-for-ban-on-big-screen-slow/

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/haskell-wants-big-screen-replays-banned/


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/mar/07/james-haskell-big-screen-replays-england-ireland

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14923209/james-haskell-calls-stadium-replays-ban-yellow-card-england-vs-ireland

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/10196503/england-flanker-james-haskell-objects-to-use-of-slow-mo-replays

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/james-haskell-criticises-call-to-bin-him-for-hit-on-conor-murray-and-wants-end-to-slomo-replays-34520227.html

Agree with James totally - slomo does no favours for the game.

The incident with Murray wasn't even a penalty let alone a yellow card.

It is not that the tackle was dangerous in any way.

MM in cut and paste to cause a row shocker...

He should keep his mouth shut - not much going on upstairs with him is there.  

Slo mo is important and officials can understand the impression it can give. They get more right than wrong.  Haskell should be more concerned about keeping his place.

Slow motion replays are good to find out what actually happened, was Haskell's tackle high? Did Lidiate use his arms? Was contact made with the eye area? What it can't tell you is contxt. It gets warped by the temporal distortion and our brains process it as though it was real time. Everything looks deliberate, everything looks late. That's why refs ask for real time footage.

I can't see anything in that says he thinks they're unfair on players making late tackles. But that's not surprising.

I agree to a point and I do think that any decision should be taken whilst viewing it at full speed.

SlowMo thread sent all the way from Maesteg 

Slomo is important yes of course but that isn't the point being made is it?
Should it be played in front of a crowd who overreact & hence potentially influence the officials.

But then what's the alternative if the ref wants to see it?

Slow motion replays are good, especially if a player commits a foul that wouldn't be picked up in real time. They can make incidents look worse than they actually were though, and late tackles would be a fair example of that. The fact that a player is already committed to tackle might be missed if played in slow motion.

Munchkin wrote:But then what's the alternative if the ref wants to see it?

Slow motion replays are good, especially if a player commits a foul that wouldn't be picked up in real time. They can make incidents look worse than they actually were though, and late tackles would be a fair example of that. The fact that a player is already committed to tackle might be missed if played in slow motion.

True but you can clearly see in most instances, just like this one that the ball left the players hands a long while before the high tackle with no arms was made.

I agree that a crowd can influence some referees, but rarely and certainly not a small away crowd in this case.

I wouldn't say a long while, but it does look a bit dodgy, and Haskell has only himself to blame. Haskell still makes a valid point, although I think it depends on the type of offence.

Here's a link for the incident:


https://twitter.com/ITVRugby/status/703641323916513280?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

IMO he is wrong. If the ref can see at what point he was committed to the tackle, then he can say whether the ensuing tackle was late. In this case, he was dangerously late, took him high and was correctly carded for being high and late.

Now, read the above again in slow motion.

Cue WUM remarks….one things for sure, they won't be late.

Haskell's comment comes along with the comment by Gustard that both of the yellow cards received by England were ridiculous and shouldn't have been awarded.

This along with the French this week deciding that they'll judge by their own rules and not other ones they signed up to.

It's all gone to hell in a handcart.

Nobody is wrong except for the other team or the other player.

Rugby is getting worse than soccer for complaints and whinging about ref decisions.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Should it be played in front of a crowd who overreact & hence potentially influence the officials.

Nailed it

Leave tech-assisted home town histrionics to the fans watching the game on the couch.

In this case, I vaguely remember it being termed 'high and shoulder' rather than late. In which case, slow motion is very useful.

yes have replays, but they should not be shown on the big screens while a decision is pending!

Either the TMO makes the call or the ref can do what the yanks do and run over to the side to watch it on a private screen!

Not commenting on the Haskell incident last week, but the current TMO usage is a bit of a circus. Still, better to get these things picked up, but I think there is a debate to be had about TMO procedures.

I think a combination of slow mo (to determine where impact was) and real time (to look at timing issues) is obviously necessary.

As a fan watching on TV, hearing the crowd react to try to pressure the referee into a decision is irritating, however, as a fan in the ground, if the referee blows his whistle and then you sit there for 5 minutes while he trots off to the side to watch a little monitor of his own, you'd start to wonder what you are paying for.

My solution, a decision has to be made in 90 seconds of "clock off", and then it isn't shown on the big screen (90 seconds being the arbitrary period of time offered to a kicker). If the footage is still inconclusive, go with your instinct and possibly defer it to a citing commissioner.

You could then have the TMO working overtime while the play is allowed to continue, and then only bugging the referee with a potential issue if it's actually an issue. Similarly, perhaps the assistant referees could ask them to review items. I feel that if an assistant referee calls the ref over and says something, the referee is almost obliged to go with them or risk overruling them in public. If the assistant said to the TMO "have a look at that tackle from White 7 again", the referee would hear this instruction and know it was an issue, but the TMO would review to determine whether it was worth stopping for. If the TMO then told the referee it should be a penalty, the referee stops the game, checks the monitor and then restarts after an informed decision.

The aim of rugby technology should be to assist the officials to get the best decision they can. Slow motion helps them so therefore it should be used.

It's a different question as to whether the crowd should see the forensic analysis of TMO decisions being looped endlessly on a big screen. That just heaps more pressure on the officials and obviously shouldn't be allowed. The crowd could be shown all sorts of alternatives while the decision is being made, such as famous tries or special offers or news 24 etc.

As for the TMO being restricted to a certain amount of time, that won't help getting the right decision, but they should obviously be wary of it themselves.

I guess the operative word is 'Late'.  What's late is late.  If a train is late, you get to work or get home late... the driver can't claim it wasn't all his fault and ask you to reset your watch.

What about the slow-mo forward passes, the slow-mo foot-out-of-play-before-try, the slow-mo capture of a ball that went just outside the posts when everyone thought it was in?

Many teams have dragged victory from defeat with the use of very visible slow-mo footage.  Many players have enjoyed wins that otherwise might not have come due to a serious look at some seriously large screen slow-mo footage that a crowd would then cheer or boo too depending on what ground the game was being played at.

It's natural that a player will only think of the negative impact when criticising.  But he should remember the moments when he was probably lapping up the slow-mo footage and enjoying the crowd's partisan contribution.

SecretFly wrote:I guess the operative word is 'Late'.  What's late is late.  If a train is late, you get to work or get home late... the driver can't claim it wasn't all his fault and ask you to reset your watch.

What about the slow-mo forward passes, the slow-mo foot-out-of-play-before-try, the slow-mo capture of a ball that went just outside the posts when everyone thought it was in?

Many teams have dragged victory from defeat with the use of very visible slow-mo footage.  Many players have enjoyed wins that otherwise might not have come due to a serious look at some seriously large screen slow-mo footage that a crowd would then cheer or boo too depending on what ground the game was being played at.

It's natural that a player will only think of the negative impact when criticising.  But he should remember the moments when he was probably lapping up the slow-mo footage and enjoying the crowd's partisan contribution.

This. +100

Slow motion replays aren't the problem poor officials are, some refs are bright enough to know that you can't rely on them in some instances and others don't.

In Haskells case he was late and Gustard complaining about ridiculous decisions maybe should have let an Irish player kick the head of one of his then maybe he could complain about them.

Thems the laws.

offload wrote:He should keep his mouth shut - not much going on upstairs with him is there.  

Slo mo is important and officials can understand the impression it can give.  They get more right than wrong.  Haskell should be more concerned about keeping his place.

On the other hand, despite your assessment of his intelligence, he's paid to play rugby professionally, and has done so very successfully. His opinion is as valid as any that would oppose it. I can think of several players in other 6N teams that are thick enough to think sitting at the back of the bus ensures they have a longer ride, doesn't invalidate their opinions on things.

For what it's worth, he is right-ish. All these slow-mo incidents tend to look worse than they really are at full speed. Usually, they're run far enough back that context can be applied. The thing they shouldn't do, is put it up on the big screens for all to see. It should be the preserve of the TMO in consultation with the referee. The crowd shouldn't be allowed to influence a decision. Play it on the big screen afterwards by all means, but make any decision as impartial as possible.

I agree with Haskell too to a certain extent. Slow mo's on black & white decisions are helpful (things like foot in touch). The speed of the replay helps the ref to see what might be missed under normal speed. However, for something like a late tackle that has a time parameter to it (I.e. committed and no-way to pull out vs being full on late late) then slowing this down will obviously change the perception and in some ways can alter reality. What was in real-time a split second thing can be made to look like a hit 5 seconds after the ball was kicked, which does not paint the true picture. I agree that a late tackle is still a late tackle so should be punished accordingly, but it is the tackle that is completed after a player is committed and in the process of tackling, when the ball is offloaded or kicked, that can be made to look late by a guy in a computer room with his finger on the sloooooooooooooooooow button.

I always like it when I ear the ref say 'Can you show me that in normal speed please'. Good reffing.

Maybe players shouldn't make late tackles? Then no matter how quickly or slowly the TMO repeats it on the big screen there will be no repercussions?

I saw nothing wrong with what he did.

This is rugby people, if its too rough for you then go and play a good, honest, safe sport like Tennis or go cycling.

Look, you're all just making excuses for Haskell.

He was just plain and simply late when he ran in dangerously on that goal post a year or so ago.  He's still sore about that one obviously and his comments now are only a veiled attempt to open up that one again.  He tackled the post late, the post had to end its career early because of it...and this man is still making excuses for his excess bull-in-a-china-shop routines????

Despicable.

TightHEAD wrote:I saw nothing wrong with what he did.

This is rugby people, if its too rough for you then go and play a good, honest, safe sport like Tennis or go cycling.

Tell that to Mikey Brown... A blade of grass grazes him the wrong way and it's gloves on and trash-talk pre-fight banter with him....

TightHEAD wrote:I saw nothing wrong with what he did.

This is rugby people, if its too rough for you then go and play a good, honest, safe sport like Tennis or go cycling.

This isn't about being 'tough enough' to watch rugby. It's about the laws of the game, and how they're applied.

Munchkin wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I saw nothing wrong with what he did.

This is rugby people, if its too rough for you then go and play a good, honest, safe sport like Tennis or go cycling.

This isn't about being 'tough enough' to watch rugby. It's about the laws of the game, and how they're applied.

Then we agree, he did nothing wrong and he was judged purely on a slow motion replay.

..that judged he had made an error of judgement in his timing.

TightHEAD wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I saw nothing wrong with what he did.

This is rugby people, if its too rough for you then go and play a good, honest, safe sport like Tennis or go cycling.

This isn't about being 'tough enough' to watch rugby. It's about the laws of the game, and how they're applied.

Then we agree, he did nothing wrong and he was judge purely on a slow motion replay.

I don't agree, but still think he makes a valid point about slow motion replays. They are good for the game, but they can alter perception, and perhaps unfairly.

I don't think the fans seeing the replays matters that much. Maybe it's even a good thing, as it can help educate. There's enough time wasted with use of TMO, and I don't want the ref running to the small screen every time he has to view an incident.

Haskell should be grateful for the TMO and slow mo. At normal speed it was a red.

Far too much moaning by professionals in rugby at the moment. Just get on with it.

He was fully committed to the tackle when the ball was passed, it happens in every game.

The problem England have is that the white kit shows up too well on HD screens, if he was wearing black nothing would have happened.

If Haskell didn't like what he was watching on the big screen, why didn't he just change channels? Too lazy to get up for the remote?

TightHEAD wrote:He was fully committed to the tackle when the ball was passed, it happens in every game.

The problem England have is that the white kit shows up too well on HD screens, if he was wearing black nothing would have happened.

Nice one.

I suppose the argument about the late tackle on Murray is what else could he have done given he was committed to what would have (probably?) been a legitimate tackle before the ball left Murrays' hands. That is context that is probably not being considered when the YC is given.

The main thing is that Murray wasn't hurt

Incidently it's pointed that the boys in white ain't allowed change their jerseys to the fresh Daz washed variety during half time.

I only just noticed that recently...was that brought in by Lancaster or did old Jones bring it in?

SecretFly wrote:Incidently it's pointed that the boys in white ain't allowed change their jerseys to the fresh Daz washed variety during half time.

I only just noticed that recently...was that brought in by Lancaster or did old Jones bring it in?

The kit man was sacked for giving out BAD financial advise, maybe they have to wash their own kit?

It's a man's woyld TightHead.... They obviously all hold the boxes the wrong way up when trying to.....

Just watched it again. The ref clearly says that the yellow card was because it was high and shoulder. Nothing to do with it being late. Dallaglio keeps whittering on about it being late but it wasn't judged that way by either the ref or TMO.

The camera stuff has become a circus.... in all departments.  And the crowds joining in just propagates the circussy, x-factory, pantomime aspect to this increasingly commercial product that is rugby.  And it can be both tiring and embarrassing - yes.  I personally shudder at the buzz word 'interactive' but I think that's the aspect that sponsors kinda like about the whole big screen stuff with the crowd doing the theatrics as the event is related again and again.

But if a stop was to be made to showing 'contentious' discussions about considered 'foul play' then the ban should come in for everything.  Drop the big TV screen completely.  Did the crowd come to watch a live game or a TV show?  You can't be selective about which bits they get to see on a screen.  I'd like them not to see a few toe in-touch tries myself   That would brighten up the game and introduce some sensational new try scoring records.......   Just get rid of the pesky 'audience participation' bloody element completely

HammerofThunor wrote:Just watched it again. The ref clearly says that the yellow card was because it was high and shoulder. Nothing to do with it being late. Dallaglio keeps whittering on about it being late but it wasn't judged that way by either the ref or TMO.

That b@rstard Murray, Not content with headbutting poor Brown on the foot he tries the same on Haskell's shoulder!

Does come across as a harsh YC though.

lostinwales wrote:Does come across as a harsh YC though.

Not really sure where it comes across as harsh, he took him high its textbook yellow

Nah, not a yellow. Had no bearing on the game though.

Not sure why this article headline states that Haskell thinks slow motion replays are unfair on players making late tackles. That's not what he says. Interesting how words are twisted sometimes. Interesting, but tiresome.

tigertattie wrote:yes have replays, but they should not be shown on the big screens while a decision is pending!

Either the TMO makes the call or the ref can do what the yanks do and run over to the side to watch it on a private screen!

Agreed.

SecretFly wrote:Drop the big TV screen completely.  Did the crowd come to watch a live game or a TV show?

Well said.

Another advantage of dropping the big screen is that we wouldn't have people in the crowd waving at themselves on it.

SecretFly wrote:The camera stuff has become a circus.... in all departments.  And the crowds joining in just propagates the circussy, x-factory, pantomime aspect to this increasingly commercial product that is rugby.  And it can be both tiring and embarrassing - yes.  I personally shudder at the buzz word 'interactive' but I think that's the aspect that sponsors kinda like about the whole big screen stuff with the crowd doing the theatrics as the event is related again and again.

But if a stop was to be made to showing 'contentious' discussions about considered 'foul play' then the ban should come in for everything.  Drop the big TV screen completely.  Did the crowd come to watch a live game or a TV show?  You can't be selective about which bits they get to see on a screen.  I'd like them not to see a few toe in-touch tries myself   That would brighten up the game and introduce some sensational new try scoring records.......   Just get rid of the pesky 'audience participation' bloody element completely

Keep the big screen. You could show the latest Bond film in the time TMO is messing about and scrums are being reset.

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Just watched it again. The ref clearly says that the yellow card was because it was high and shoulder. Nothing to do with it being late. Dallaglio keeps whittering on about it being late but it wasn't judged that way by either the ref or TMO.

That b@rstard Murray, Not content with headbutting poor Brown on the foot he tries the same on Haskell's shoulder!

Does come across as a harsh YC though.

High tackle with no use of the arms and off the ball. It's a yellow for the first two, the third
is subjective, but it was technically late.