Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Super

For starters I live in a one bedroom flat. But I think you know that it should not take the people of a nation putting refugees up in their house before the government is required to do anything about it.

For example the government could easily rent 50 premier inns and put the refugees there until they can be given homes.


"Of course it matters. They have a far greater responsibility than the UK does"

So you are saying that because those countries closer to Syria have neglected their responsibilities the UK has the right to do nothing? You are saying that one country doing nothing is sufficient for another country to justify doing nothing?


bob

WTF was that?

[navyblueshorts]

...But that isn't usually how access is blocked to certain careers for those who have committed some crimes.  It is usually the employer or professional body who bar entry or membership if an applicant has been convicted of certain crimes.

Maybe Mac, except that wasn't the case here was it? It was all that lovely mob rule pressure put on those clubs that even said he could train, let alone actually play for them.
Many of those same numpties banged on about how disgraceful it was that he'd shown no remorse (what a cad!), despite the fact that he always said he didn't do it. Why, on Earth, would one admit to something they'd never admitted to doing? Since when does British justice say that one must show remorse in any case? Who are you to know what remorse someone actually feels? Are we so pathetic now that we have to get vicarious thrill from seeing someone give some squirming public apology for something?

Enough already. Let's agree that we have some disagreements over some of the issues surrounding this.

[navyblueshorts]

I think I can say with some certainty that Jess Ennis has nothing to be jealous of when it comes to Evans. What a ridiculous supposition

I just knew you'd say that. Damn! I knew I should have qualified that. Ennis was one voice amongst thousands. Yes, she has little to be jealous of re. Evans. Happy now?

[beninho]

ANyone should be allowed to try and return to their chosen profession. But no one has a right to have any given job. He wanted to return to football, but the clubs need to balance it against the views of their fans. And a convicted r***ist appealing his decision is still a convicted r***ist, that is enough of a reason for some fans to not want to see a player signed, which may harm the club financially.

Same with a plumber, builder or estate agent, if it may be financially detrimental why would a business keep an employee.

[McLaren]

Let's say he served his license with no issues and there wasn't an appeal. You and everyone else would be fine with him then returning to a pro football career? My arse you'd be. You'd still be demanding that he be further punished and putting pressure on any institution that allowed him to return to his former career.

Navy

As part of his sentence he will have been placed on the serious sex offenders register for life (or indefinitely, as I think is the case).  Given that he would still be on the sex offenders register (which is our societies way of saying this guy might still be a bit dodgy) there would be a valid argument to be made that certain career paths should not be open to him.

I don't think he needs further punishment as proper implementation of the fact he is on the sex offenders register could be enough to ensure he doesn't pose much of a threat to society.

As it was at the time, I don't think a person convicted of r*** should be employed by a company which is a major part of a community and where he would be visible on a daily basis to his victim. The harm on the victim being my main concern.

Out of interest what careers do you think should no longer be available to those convicted of r*** or sexual assault?

[GunsGerms]

WTF?  There is no gradation of r***.  r*** is r***.

I disagree and so does the UK legal system.

Would you seriously consider a 17 year old boy convicted of statutory r*** with his 16 year old girlfriend as the same class a criminal as a r***ist who violently abducts and rapes women?

If you do then there is no hope for you.

[McLaren]

Guns

Not really for us to decide is it? If you were a victim of r*** would you really appreciate people discussing whether or not you should feel as bad about it as someone who suffered a "more serious" r***?

It is about impact on the victim and not whether or not others think the scenario is more gruesome? How can we predict the level of trauma caused to a victim based on our ill informed notion of what a "worse" r*** is?

[GunsGerms]

Guns

Not really for us to decide is it?  If you were a victim of r*** would you really appreciate people discussing whether or not you should feel as bad about it as someone who suffered a "more serious" r***?

It is about impact on the victim and not whether or not others think the scenario is more gruesome?  How can we predict the level of trauma caused to a victim based on our ill informed notion of what a "worse" r*** is?

In certain statutory r*** scenarios there is little to no impact on the victim. The common law legal system in Ireland and the UK allows judges to treat different cases differently. Unless a precedent has been set for the exact scenario in the past judges have the power as far as I understand to create precedent. Judges also have the power to hand down different sentences depending on a variety of different factors. So obviously not all r*** cases are the same.

Actually it is also partially up to the public because in Ireland and the UK we both have jury systems where the people decide on questions of fact. If I was on the Ched Evans jury I would have concluded that he wasn't guilty based on what I have read anyway.

Are you just playing devils advocate Mac?

[beninho]

Want the impact on the Ched Evans victim such that she did not know if she had been raped, as she was smashed after a big night out?

[skiddy]

Is anybody in Britain who has any intelligence going to vote to leave the EU?

[McLaren]

Is anybody in Britain who has any intelligence going to vote to leave the EU?

No.


But I am seriously worried about the vote going the wrong way.

[GunsGerms]

Want the impact on the Ched Evans victim such that she did not know if she had been raped, as she was smashed after a big night out?

It doesn't sit well with me when people blame booze and a loss of memory for their actions. I get the sense that sometimes people remember more than they are willing to admit to. Not saying that is necessarily the case here.

[McLaren]

gungerms

Are you a #gamergater?

[GunsGerms]

gungerms

Are you a #gamergater?

Sorry don't know what that is.

[JAS]

Is anybody in Britain who has any intelligence going to vote to leave the EU?

Yep, I'm seriously considering a No. I'm wrestling with the following...
1. When you listen to the so called "facts" they contain words like "may" & "could" Um....they are therefore NOT facts but scaremongering speculation.
2. We are being told that it's important for financial stability....oh really??? What did the EU do in 2008 (or for that matter in the lead up to 2008) to ensure we avoided a financial crisis and subsequent years of austerity??
3. We are being told we will be more secure. How exactly? Will we be ejected from NATO? We will no longer be part of Shengen, will that not make us more secure?
4. Trade deals - we can't negotiate trade deals with non EU countries currently, it all has to go through the EU. How good are we at getting good deals from the EU....why don't we ask say our farmers or our fishermen?
5. The simplest of equations, how much do we put in? How much do we get back?

I'm not a definite no...yet, but if those questions can't be satisfactorily covered in the next few weeks then I will be.
I do wonder what would happen if we did come out. Because we are a net contributor, if we came out others would have to contribute more or the "hand out" pot would become smaller, either way it may cause other countries to think again about the whole flawed project.

[beninho]

This in/out referendum is a difficult one. I have not seen anything that would make me vote to not remain, but working in local authority housing in London, I can very well see why people would want to leave, and its purely going to be an immigration issue.

[McLaren]

Not sure why people care so much about the economic arguments. Stay in and you are part of the biggest trade union in the world, leave and you are one of the top 10 economies in the world. I am sure the UK would be ok either way, although I obviously accept the evidence from academia world that staying in will be better. No idea what each sides claim is but if you do some quick searches in the academic literature it is clear staying in comes out a bit better.

But as I said, why care so much about that? What about the protection being in europe gives in terms of human rights, workers rights, our own government etc?

What about being part of a more interesting cultural area?

What about the joy of being able to live anywhere you like in Europe?

The joy of living in a country that invites people from various backgrounds across a continent?

A future where more rational thinking people (eg swedes, germans, belgians etc) make more of our policy decisions?

[JAS]

Human rights & workers rights could come from our own government (depending on the flavour obviously).

We are part of a cultural area, and it's not as if we'd be banned from European culture if we came out.

I also don't see why we wouldn't be able to continue to welcome French, Germans, Spaniards, Poles etc, we did it before we were part of the failing Union why would we not be able to continue? Do you think the rest of the Europeans are gonna take the hump?  Do you think they'll want to kick us out the Ryder Cup? or abandon it such that it'll go back to GB &I?? No of course they won't

[skiddy]

Its hardly scaremongering if the potus says the Uk is back of the line for a trade deal. That is a scary prospect.

[SmithersJones]

To my mind it boils down to the glass half full or glass half empty scenario. However, while I'd normally suggest optimism is preferable, it strikes me that the optimism of the out campaigners is both blind and naive. Obama's assertion today is unlikely to have been politically motivated - why should he give a sh!t either way? As for the brexiters like Boris suggesting that he's being hypocritical because the US would never give up sovereignty by joining an organisation like the EU, they clearly don't understand that the US is exactly like the EU, only more so.

[McLaren]

JAS

The tories won on a manifesto which claimed they would scrap human rights legislation.  Clearly the UK public cannot be trusted to ensure such things remain.

I forget to mention it above but if you care at all about tackling global warming you have to vote to stay.

I just don't understand the petty mindset that yearns for a Britain of old, I feel European and look forward to the day we are more fully integrated with our neighbors on the continent.

[pedro]

Jas, you seem very focused on "what's in it for me", and "them and us". You clearly missed the whole idea about the EU. There are many things wrong with EU today, but maybe you should try to see past that and look at the bigger picture.

[navyblueshorts]

Is anybody in Britain who has any intelligence going to vote to leave the EU?

Yep, I'm seriously considering a No. I'm wrestling with the following...
1. When you listen to the so called "facts" they contain words like "may" & "could" Um....they are therefore NOT facts but scaremongering speculation.
2. We are being told that it's important for financial stability....oh really??? What did the EU do in 2008 (or for that matter in the lead up to 2008) to ensure we avoided a financial crisis and subsequent years of austerity??
3. We are being told we will be more secure. How exactly? Will we be ejected from NATO? We will no longer be part of Shengen, will that not make us more secure?
4. Trade deals - we can't negotiate trade deals with non EU countries currently, it all has to go through the EU. How good are we at getting good deals from the EU....why don't we ask say our farmers or our fishermen?
5. The simplest of equations, how much do we put in? How much do we get back?

I'm not a definite no...yet, but if those questions can't be satisfactorily covered in the next few weeks then I will be.
I do wonder what would happen if we did come out. Because we are a net contributor, if we came out others would have to contribute more or the "hand out" pot would become smaller, either way it may cause other countries to think again about the whole flawed project.

None of your points are pro-exit JAS; just trying to deny pro-Remain points. Much like the official Leave people, there doesn't seem to be anything concrete there to say would actually would happen/be the benefits of leaving.

[McLaren]

Jas

"5. The simplest of equations, how much do we put in? How much do we get back?"


How will you monetize the guaranteed human rights, workers rights, tempering of right wing policies in the uk, national security benefits, increased ability to tackle climate and other environmental factors, ability to live in more countries and so on?

Whatever we pay I would happily pay much more to get all the great not directly financial gains from being part of the EU.

[puligny]

JAS - many of the "facts" are economic forecasts, so by definition not facts. I haven't seen any attempt from the leavers to quantify their mostly emotional rhetoric, and believe the forecasts are the best we have right now.
2008 was a calamity worldwide. Some European (not all) were better insulated at that time as they (many not all) are generally more conservative in their approach. Simple example - compare "bankers" pay in Germany vs UK - I guarantee you would be amazed.
There should be more security in the larger group. Macro, it's helped avoid wars among many regular combatants. Micro, if only we hadn't been so bull nosed at the time of Iraq and listened a bit more to France, for example, rather than being so arrogant and we know best. Cooperation among police forces is way better now than times previous, but can be improved further. Maybe we should try harder to improve things from the inside, rather than standing on the touch lines shouting abuse!
UK farmers do very well out of the EU. Farmers and fishermen might do better if UK politicians built effective partnerships rather than standing on the touch lines etc. In addition many other economic groups are being formed, Asia, southern Pacific, to get the benefits of block deals. Which of the rather poor cast of Brexiters is going to lead our effort in the future. We all know Boris is playing a dangerous game of bluff - seen Lord Soames letter yesterday? I'm not impressed with many of our politicians - no time to give all the reasons now - but EU exit group is the C team at best. Scaremongering more from their rhetoric than anything else, and of course their description of anything from anywhere else as scaremongering is a well established tactic for those that don't have an argument but insist on making noise.
I'm for in. It took us decades to e septet in the first place and we have never really embraced it. Get rid of this argument once and for all, and maybe we can work effectively from within?

Hope you daughter is ok.
Cheers

[puligny]

JAS - also we are not full members of Shengen, hence UK Border staff on French side of the Tunnel, and at all points of entry to the UK.

[McLaren]

Great post Puligny, especially the last line "Get rid of this argument once and for all, and maybe we can work effectively from within?"

I get genuinely excited when thinking about a time where the politics of Europe is focused on making the EU as good as possible and not on petty domestic squabbles.

Whith proper integration of political movements across Europe the cause you fight for will not just benefit people in your own small region but across a whole continent. How cool is that?

[skiddy]

The end of the EU would be back to the pre wars to the pre war years. Niger Hitler in charge of the uk and and marine musollini ic charge of France. There the type of politicions that will thrive if europe breaks up

[raycastleunited]

JAS do you read the Mail or the Express?

UK is not part of Schengen.

All economic indicators point to UK being better off in the EU. It is estimated that it would take up to 8 years for the UK to negotiate its exit treaty, every EU member has to agree it, so we would be facing a decade of uncertainty and it is uncertainty which causes volatility and holds back investment. That applies to Both foreign and UK companies.

Taking a step back, UK will have a large and prosperous economy either way. Maybe in the long term leaving is the best thing, it's just the UK will be worse off for 10-20 years.

[raycastleunited]

The reason Obama is worried is that a UK leave vote could trigger another global recession. Quite a few economic forecasters are modelling this outcome.

Oh, and a very good post puligny.

[puligny]

So Obama skewers the leave campaigners pie in the sky view of producing trade deals, and now they are trying to have the Home Secretary ban one of their supporters (Marine Le Pen) from entering the country to avoid embarrassment about her extreme, possibly racist, and certainly inflammatory language.
I listened this morning to Obama and thought - makes sense, reasonable, believable logical and considered. Then we had that Titan of British politics, Liam Fox, putting the other case! I can't remember why he had to resign as a minister, but fair play to him, when asked to comment about Boris' racist dog whistle this week, he stayed calm and didn't want to make it personal. The only sensible thing he had to say! In moments of high stress my dad had a saying "give me strength". Give me strength!!!!
If only Cameron had had the balls to avoid this whole exercise we wouldn't look quite so stupid in the eyes of our European partners and the wider world.

[JAS]

I do get your post from yesterday Puligny and share much of the sentiment in it. I always believed in the principle of a union whether it be a United Kingdom or a European Union, in theory we should always be able to achieve more together than individually.
The problem I have is that I believe the European Union is in a complete mess and full of inept beaurocrats. I genuinely thought Cameron could have gone further in insisting to the Germans/French etc that the whole project needs a serious review and big changes to make it workable. To me the EU has gone wrong because they've mistakenly thought that it's possible to have monetary union without fiscal Union which to be honest is a pipe dream. We have had a fairly good position in that we've been part of the Union but not part of the single currency. If we stay in that position that's fine but if we vote to stay I suspect the Europeans might see that as a que to pull us toward monetary union which would be very unpalatable to many as would any push toward fiscal Union.
I just think several decades in that they would have learned how to run things just a bit better.

Daughters progress has been remarkable by the way, she'll probably get discharged early to middle of this week.

[JAS]

Also, I don't see Obama as interfering, he of course will have a relevant view as any change will affect his country too.

I don't think he's had the credit he deserves as a world leader. I can't begin to imagine what reasoned intellectual contribution Trump would bring to the debate :-/

[puligny]

JAS - big review, yes. I'm all for it, but do we want to be contributors to that review, or simply recipients of the terms which emerge, like Norway. Of course Norway has the buffer of the largest sovereign wealth fund per capita on the planet, but we don't.
Euro, you cite good reasons not to be in. It may collapse in time, but equally it could yet work. It's certainly worked for Germany. I agree with your assessment, but we are where we are. The EU is not going away and I reckon we have a better chance of changing it positively from the inside not the outside.
Cameron made the classic mistake of engaging mouth before brain. Of shouting what he wanted before building the alliances which might help him succeed. We know why - to reign in the right of his party, which is far more important for him to control than the wider interests of the country. So he's gambled, hugely that we will vote to stay in. I hope he's right, because a UK government shaped by Johnson, IDS, Fox Farage Redwood (Le Pen!) should make us all realise what the real game is here. Pull up the drawbridge chaps, were British don't you know!
Hey ho - off to Burnham and Berrow for West of England seniors - now that is serious!

[MontysMerkin]

As I get older I find that these decisions become easier. Find out what the Daily Mail thinks about a subject, and then position yourself opposite. Simples.

[super_realist]

JAS - big review, yes. I'm all for it, but do we want to be contributors to that review, or simply recipients of the terms which emerge, like Norway. Of course Norway has the buffer of the largest sovereign wealth fund per capita on the planet, but we don't.
Euro, you cite good reasons not to be in. It may collapse in time, but equally it could yet work. It's certainly worked for Germany. I agree with your assessment, but we are where we are. The EU is not going away and I reckon we have a better chance of changing it positively from the inside not the outside.
Cameron made the classic mistake of engaging mouth before brain. Of shouting what he wanted before building the alliances which might help him succeed. We know why - to reign in the right of his party, which is far more important for him to control than the wider interests of the country. So he's gambled, hugely that we will vote to stay in. I hope he's right, because a UK government shaped by Johnson, IDS, Fox Farage Redwood (Le Pen!) should make us all realise what the real game is here. Pull up the drawbridge chaps, were British don't you know!
Hey ho - off to Burnham and Berrow for West of England seniors  - now that is serious!

Very obvious why Norway has that and why Britain couldn't.

[JAS]

Jas, you seem very focused on "what's in it for me", and "them and us". You clearly missed the whole idea about the EU. There are many things wrong with EU today, but maybe you should try to see past that and look at the bigger picture.

Pedro, my post was meant to be thought provoking, in reality if I was only thinking of what's in it for me on a personal level I'd be screaming at everybody that we should stay in (I'm currently embroiled in a legal case regarding the mis-selling of a mortgage in Cyprus, our barristers are fighting under EU law to have the case heard in the High Court in the UK rather than Cyprus. If we exited the Greek bank involved would probably try and assert that we were no longer covered by EU law - which would drag out the case rather than bringing it to a head)

Taking a wider view, I recognise the value of a Union, I just have particular concerns about the way the current EU works. I agree with Puligny's assertion that in principle we would have a better chance of changing things from within than from outside. That being said, that's what Cameron allegedly tried to do and clearly fell hopelessly flat on his @rse.

Also from a wider perspective, most people are only thinking of what's in it for Britain either way. What about the implications for the EU post any EU exit (should it happen). Judging from the rhetoric from some EU leaders regarding a potential EU exit, they are clearly alarmed at the prospect (as they should be) because it would be damaging for the EU if we did leave, both financially and politically. I would hope hope that post-vote whatever the result, that will make them look a lot more seriously at root and branch reform.

Finally for the record I'm no Daily Mail/Daily Express reading little englander either and I detest that rather blind xenophobic line. There are left and right reasons for both remaining and exiting.

[McLaren]

Jas, it may be what Cameron "allegedly" tried to do, but what he actually tried to do was to ask Europe to give the UK special treatment on a broad range of issues without bothering to consider the rest of the people living in Europe while he tried a cheap political stunt. If he really cared about changing the EU for the better he would have been trying to push legislation through the European parliament that improved things for all EU citizens.

What are the particular concerns you have about the way the EU works?

[super_realist]

Mac, It isn't Cameron's responsibility to improve things for all EU citizens, that's the EU's MO. Cameron's responsibility ends at the UK.

[MontysMerkin]

And what a lovely job he's doing. Wonder what he'll f*ck up next?

[super_realist]

Do any politicians ever do anything of note worthy of praise, or are people just on a witchunt again?

[navyblueshorts]

Do any politicians ever do anything of note worthy of praise, or are people just on a witchunt again?

Not I. Many are now careerist winkers but I don't think I'd want the job. Permanently insulted and not paid enough for the job description.

[MontysMerkin]

I would say minimum wage was a good one. Creation of the welfare state another. Invading Iraq is starting to increasingly look foolish. As were the PFI deals. The junior doctors contract looks well dodgy, and as for removing free education for nurses when nursing is at an all time low seems particularly short sighted. I suppose things of note worthy of praise would have to be things like wiping ones own arse, remembering to blink, etc...

[JAS]

What are the particular concerns you have about the way the EU works?

More that it doesn't actually work, or it doesn't appear to at the moment. Perhaps it just expanded too quickly. To me there is too much diversity in the member nations of the single currency e.g Greece/Germany. That's not Greece or Germany's fault but both have significant numbers that are completely pee'd of with the other. The Germans in general work hard, are quite well off and rightly resented having to shell out money to keep the Greeks afloat. The Greeks on the other hand are laid back and resented their nation being forced to the brink of bankruptcy by EU banking institutions (many would say it was the Greeks own fault and they should work harder and not spend what they haven't got). Now...that's just a caricature of the tensions between 2 members. Throw in another 25 all with their own cultural peculiarities and socio-economic values and you have an absolute nightmare to try and manage. To try to manage 27 diverse countries will result in frequently endless stalemate debates. What the EU tends to do is fudge the bold decisions because it can never get agreement between all member states. If it is to survive then they may have to look at a 2 tier model with the economically viable countries in tier 1 and the others in tier 2.

[McLaren]

But doesn't it actually work quite well in many of the wider issues?

Trade is easier between member states

Basic rights have been provided for people across the whole continent

the courts of the EU protect us from our government

There have been no military conflicts between european states since ww2

It provides a great coalition able to tackle climate change

Despite recent economic mismanagement the union has provided greater growth for members than they would have had otherwise.

And surely many things I can't think of right now. It seems like incredibly short sighted through all that away because we are not quite happy with the practicalities of its current day to day running.

[kwinigolfer]

No military conflicts? You'd better define "European States"!

[McLaren]

Kwini

I meant EU state vs EU state, and not like UK vs Iraq.

[JAS]

But doesn't it actually work quite well in many of the wider issues?

Trade is easier between member states

Basic rights have been provided for people across the whole continent

the courts of the EU protect us from our government

There have been no military conflicts between european states since ww2

It provides a great coalition able to tackle climate change

Despite recent economic mismanagement the union has provided greater growth for members than they would have had otherwise.

And surely many things I can't think of right now.  It seems like incredibly short sighted through all that away because we are not quite happy with the practicalities of its current day to day running.

Trade is easier - that is an assumption, a reasonable one but an assumption nevertheless.

Basic Rights? Any modern state should have basic rights without the EU telling them they need to have them
EU courts protect us - on occasion they may well do, on other occasion they are seen to interfere.

Military conflict - Ah one of the original founding principles and probably the most important one. No conflicts however is stretching it a bit as we have had paramilitary activity in several areas as well as a war on the continent itself although with countries not member states at the time.

Economic mismanagement is not uniquely recent I don't think they've been economically competent for decades (I.e. The thought that the single currency can work without some sort of fiscal Union - politically that's a step too far for many yet so the EU fudge it and pretend that monetary union will still work anyway.

No doubt many are short sighted on both sides of the debate but as I eluded to in the last para, I believe the EUs problems are not just current, they are systemic and long term.

It would be great if they could be fixed and we could help to fix them, I just struggle with how we are going to get to that point.

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
Maybe not EU countries in conflict with each other but certainly NATO countries - and I lived in the middle of one for 15 months! Before your time though.

[McLaren]

Kwini

I just wanted to point out that the EU does make it pretty unlikely that member countries will go to war with each other. Which is a much better position than most of the history of Europe where the countries battled each other every 5 minutes.

[beninho]

Good to see the Tories stating we should leave the European Convention on Human Rights. Can withdrawing from anything regarding Human Rights be a good thing?

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