McGrain: 50 Greatest Welterweights

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/22109--the-50-greatest-welterweights-of-all-time-part-four-20-11

McGrain's been busy again.

Happy to see Tito above Oscar. Truss will be happy to see Curry above Burley and (it looks like) Mayweather made the top ten.

Will be most interested to see 1-10.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/22090-the-fifty-50-greatest-welterweights-of-all-time-part-three-30-21

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/22056-the-50-greatest-welterweights-of-all-time-part-two-40-31

Honeyghan above Benitez?

Not sure about that.

Please post the top 10 as and when you get it. Thanks in advance.

Palomino, Cuevas and Benitez should all be above Honeygan IMO.

Honeyghan still getting elevated by his win over Curry.

Barring that win, he wouldn't be anywhere near those three.

Goes to show what one huge win can do..

If he'd beaten Starling on top of that then yes he's got a case, but he didn't. Not only that he was beaten so easy by Marlon giving rise to the theory he beat a severely drained Curry.

Was a great win though and he went in as a huge underdog and he was on fire that night, so I would'nt discredit that win as readily as perhaps some others do. Did he lose focus and stop training after Curry and become in love with his own power?

Still that was a great win and should elevate him, but between 40-50 more for me than 30-40. I'd just like to have seen him more competitive with Starling and Breland.

Did he lose focus? I realise your question was rhetorical but honey was party central after becoming champion and also believed his own hype, ignoring what got him to be champion and becoming a crude slugger.

Whichever, he's not the first nor will he be the last, and ultimately it's irrelevant in his standing.

McGrain claims to have based this on what was achieved at the weight... It's not a list of who was the best on their day... So the guys who Weight hopped are downgraded. That explains Benitez who was a truly great fighter (albeit one who's career derailed) but a welter for a relatively short period of time.

Palomino and cuevas? I'm not outraged at honeyghan ranking higher.  He's obviously given him big brownie points for the curry fight. Not sure I'd have him so high but... Cuevas was a banger who fought dross as champion, palomino tends to get better press in the uk than elsewhere as he beats stracey and green... Clearly a very good operator but again, not much quality on his win ledger.

milkyboy wrote:Did he lose focus? I realise your question was rhetorical but  honey was party central after becoming champion and also believed his own hype, ignoring what got him to be champion and becoming a crude slugger.

Whichever, he's not the first nor will he be the last, and ultimately it's irrelevant in his standing.

McGrain claims to have based this on what was achieved at the weight... It's not a list of who was the best on their day... So the guys who Weight hopped are downgraded. That explains Benitez who was a truly great fighter (albeit one who's career derailed) but a welter for a relatively short period of time.

Palomino and cuevas? I'm not outraged at honeyghan ranking higher.  He's obviously given him big brownie points for the curry fight. Not sure I'd have him so high but... Cuevas was a banger who fought dross as champion, palomino tends to get better press in the uk than elsewhere as he beats stracey and green... Clearly a very good operator but again, not much quality on his win ledger.

If you look at 2 of Palomino's losses S/D against Benitez and UD against Duran, although losses the calibre of opposition is 2 ATG's. But I liked Honeyghan, hit the night clubs far to often after becoming champ, and that done him, cracking punch he knocked Rossi out with in Italy as well when a huge underdog.

I don't know enough about Cuevas in truth but Palomino definitely in with a shout to be ranked ahead of Honeyghan. Benitez nailed on ahead of Honey for me. Palomino appeared in an episode of Happy Days too I think.

Nico the gman wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Did he lose focus? I realise your question was rhetorical but  honey was party central after becoming champion and also believed his own hype, ignoring what got him to be champion and becoming a crude slugger.

Whichever, he's not the first nor will he be the last, and ultimately it's irrelevant in his standing.

McGrain claims to have based this on what was achieved at the weight... It's not a list of who was the best on their day... So the guys who Weight hopped are downgraded. That explains Benitez who was a truly great fighter (albeit one who's career derailed) but a welter for a relatively short period of time.

Palomino and cuevas? I'm not outraged at honeyghan ranking higher.  He's obviously given him big brownie points for the curry fight. Not sure I'd have him so high but... Cuevas was a banger who fought dross as champion, palomino tends to get better press in the uk than elsewhere as he beats stracey and green... Clearly a very good operator but again, not much quality on his win ledger.

If you look at 2 of Palomino's losses S/D against Benitez and UD against Duran, although losses the calibre of opposition is 2 ATG's. But I liked Honeyghan, hit the night clubs far to often after becoming champ, and that done him, cracking punch he knocked Rossi out with in Italy as well when a huge underdog.

It was a bit of a rogue card in the Benitez fight... Benitez win pretty easily on most people's cards and Duran won at a canter... No disgrace in either defeat of course.

Like I said, I do think palomino was a good champion, stracey and Dave green were good wins.

Yeh Lloyd was definitely a different beast on the way up than he was after the curry fight... Always a bit open to be from the very top drawer but definitely a handful. The rosi punch was a beauty, made to look better by the decent career rosi went on to have.

Hermy, don't think anyone's disputing that Benitez is a better fighter than honeyghan... He just didn't fight much at welter... Which is what the rankings are based on. I suspect if mcgrain ever does a light-Welters list el radar will be up contesting the higher reaches.

Was thinking the same about Palomino's fight with Benitez who's fights in general ended up with rather bizarre scoring, don't think judges had any clue how to score him. His ledger is full of comfortable wins and losses that the judges somehow scored close.

I see your point re Benitez Milky, I hadn't realised he didn't fight much at welter.


Who do you think would have won in a fight between Palomino  and Honey?


http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=233763

It's a tough fight to call hermy, but if you took them in their championship winning fights I'd err to the honey that beat curry over the palomino who beat stracey. If palomino fought the honeyghan that lost to starling he'd have beaten him too.

Hammy, true about some of Benitez' fights. Hearns being a case in point. My guess is it's the defensive wizards in general  who produce conflicting cards as it's just not to some judges tastes. Floyd's had a few rogue cards against him, Whittaker was the king of controversy etc.

[quote="milkyboy"]It's a tough fight to call hermy, but if you took them in their championship winning fights I'd err to the honey that beat curry over the palomino who beat stracey. If palomino fought the honeyghan that lost to starling he'd have beaten him too.

Hammy, true about some of Benitez' fights. Hearns being a case in point. My guess is it's the defensive wizards in general  who produce conflicting cards as it's just not to some judges tastes. Floyd's had a few rogue cards against him, Whittaker was the king of controversy etc.[/quote Not knocking Starling excellent fighter, but fought a shell of a fighter from the Honeyghan who beat Curry.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/22132-the-50-greatest-welterweights-of-all-time-part-five-10-1

Not sure about Floyd and Hearns in there but great work.

Interesting stuff, not sure about Britton at 3 and I think he gets a bit contradictory at times... Eg he states it's all about the record at the weight... But then says hearns has to go above mayweather because he'd beat him.

But that's churlish. Always room for debate on these things and in general a well argued and researched piece. Cheers for posting haz.

milkyboy wrote:Interesting stuff, not sure about Britton at 3 and I think he gets a bit contradictory at times... Eg he states it's all about the record at the weight... But then says hearns has to go above mayweather because he'd beat him.

But that's churlish. Always room for debate on these things and in general a well argued and researched piece. Cheers for posting haz.

Think he's on to lightweights next. Not as fun that one.