England 45-man EPS

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com


  • Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  • Nathan Hughes included for first time


England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:
While the dust settles on the most successful trip down South for an England team since 2003, Eddie Jones will have to start thinking about naming his first EPS squad that is completely his.

You would assume the 23 from that second test would form the bedrock of the squad, but then what about the other 10 spots? There are big question marks over:

Joe Marler
Undisputed first choice under Lancaster and just about held off Mako Vunipola during the Six Nations, but he's been hauled in front of the disciplinary committee three times since March and made himself unavailable for selection. Mako Vunipola has played very well and probably has the starting spot for the first Autumn International, but do you stick with Mullan as back-up or do you bring back Marler, assuming he's available?

Teimana Harrison and the backrow
So Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola and Clifford will all be in the EPS, but does Harrison come back from being subbed after 30 minutes? Beaumont is another option, as is Nathan Hughes now - but does he come straight into an EPS?

Centre options
Manu and Te'o were named in the initial squad for the Australia tour, with Burrell filling in for Manu. Burrell overtook Te'o and started the first test, but Burrell and the "Bosher" gameplan were both ditched after 30 minutes of the first test. Will Burrell recover? Did Jones not like what he saw from Te'o when he got into camp? And does Manu come back in? Do we use any of them?

We also have Slade, who toured and didn't get on the pitch or from left-field our best two under-20s were Mallinder and Marchant, do either of these come into consideration?

Saxons
The Saxons won their two "test" series in South Africa. Taylor, Attwood, Kvesic, Robson, Cipriani and Hill will all come into consideration.

Potential EPS
Forwards (19)
Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie
Mako Vunipola, Cole, Marler, Hill, Mullan, Brookes
Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Clifford, Hughes
Vunipola, Beaumont

Backs (14)
Youngs, Care, Robson
Ford, Farrell, Mallinder
Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
Yarde, Nowell, Watson
Brown, Goode

Who would you pick in your EPS if you were Eddie Jones?


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue 02 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Updating post for new developments)

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 10:27 am

Probably as much as Slade does to the 13 jersey tbh. I don't think either are ideal for those positions. Eddie obviously sees something as Daly was covering 12 from the bench apparently.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 10:59 am

Slade has been class throughout for Exeter at 13 though.

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Post by DaveM on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 11:02 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Yea pretty much. He's not done a whole a great deal to warrant such hype but he does have plenty of potential. I don't think he's played 12 either but I imagine he'll get more and more game time at 10 next season in a backline of:

10. Slade
12. Devoto/Hill
13. Campanagro/Devoto/Slade

I really like Slade but he seems to be held in very high regard by a number of posters on here without actually doing that much. In the big games I've seen with him playing, he hasn't really delivered.

I'm sure Steenson, who is clearly first choice at 10, will have something to say about that!

Slade is a fantastic player, who has played outstandingly well at 13 for Exeter. He didn't play well in the AP final, but given the horrific injury he suffered he had no right to be there in the first place. Hopefully a good pre-season will see him returned to full fitness. He's held in high regard because of his complete skill-set - the ability to pass, kick, tackle and run is still fairly rare in the English game.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 11:13 am

You have to remember that whilst Joseph can be electric offensively....he has proven that generally he can be a rock in defence as well....and seems to have power that belies his slighter frame.

Mind Daly also put a thumping hit In the final test when he came on in the "back row"....

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 11:17 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Slade has been class throughout for Exeter at 13 though.

From what little I understand I think he tends to play in different positions depending on what is happening rather than staying at 13 all the time regardless of what number is on his back. He does seem an ideal foil to a heavyweight in the centers.

He is also indicative of the good times we are currently enjoying with England. It is entirely possible that he will only earn a handful of caps, because of the competition with FF. Alternatively we could be going into 2019 with FF out of the picture and, say, Slade at 10 and the young prince at 12.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 11:22 am

DaveM wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Yea pretty much. He's not done a whole a great deal to warrant such hype but he does have plenty of potential. I don't think he's played 12 either but I imagine he'll get more and more game time at 10 next season in a backline of:

10. Slade
12. Devoto/Hill
13. Campanagro/Devoto/Slade

I really like Slade but he seems to be held in very high regard by a number of posters on here without actually doing that much. In the big games I've seen with him playing, he hasn't really delivered.

I'm sure Steenson, who is clearly first choice at 10, will have something to say about that!

Slade is a fantastic player, who has played outstandingly well at 13 for Exeter. He didn't play well in the AP final, but given the horrific injury he suffered he had no right to be there in the first place. Hopefully a good pre-season will see him returned to full fitness. He's held in high regard because of his complete skill-set - the ability to pass, kick, tackle and run is still fairly rare in the English game.  

Steenson is 32 and not getting any younger. I'm sure we'll more of Slade at 10 next season.

I don't think he has "played outstandingly well", he's looked good without setting the world alight. I sometimes wonder if people just jump on bandwagons of players without actually seeing much of them play sometimes.....not accusing you of this.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 11:25 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:You have to remember that whilst Joseph can be electric offensively....he has proven that generally he can be a rock in defence as well....and seems to have power that belies his slighter frame.

Mind Daly also put a thumping hit In the final test when he came on in the "back row"....
He was great in that last test...I can imagine Daly saying 'What do I do' And Gustard just saying - hit every ruck and tackle everything!
Though he did really well.

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Post by Jimpy on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 12:11 pm

Tuilagi shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. And if he was, I'd hope he got there having earned his place back. England need to move on from Manu now.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 12:11 pm

propdavid_london wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:You have to remember that whilst Joseph can be electric offensively....he has proven that generally he can be a rock in defence as well....and seems to have power that belies his slighter frame.

Mind Daly also put a thumping hit In the final test when he came on in the "back row"....
He was great in that last test...I can imagine Daly saying 'What do I do' And Gustard just saying - hit every ruck and tackle everything!
Though he did really well.

A fast 8 and a 12 often have quite a lot in common - I can still remember James Forrester turning out at 12 for Gloucester when they had an injury crisis, and Clifford was a 12 for a lot of his junior career. Wouldn't want to see Daly there long term, though... ;-)
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 1:04 pm

Ha ha...yeah don't think Daly is the long term answer at 8. But many focus on his defence as being weak....but he didn't half put a thumping hit in...im pretty sure it dislodged the ball.

Back to the midfield though...I genuinely think we have a good mix to allow us to create a nicely balanced midfield....power, pace, guile and kicking...

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Post by hugehandoff on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 1:07 pm

Who do you think are guaranteed to start in the AI's and which positions are open to players putting their hands up?

Defo starters for me:
Hartley, Cole, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Billy V, Haskell, Ford, Farrell

All the others I think will be up for grabs. Mako in the starting loosehead spot but if Marler plays well for Quinns he could return. Youngs played well at 9, but not enough to be cemented in.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 1:37 pm

Eddie has found a winning formula, and it seems pretty clear that his message to the rest of the squad is: "you want the shirt? come and take it." Barring injury, I think we know the default starting XV and most of the bench.

Some places will be up for grabs in training camp. Will Marler displace Mako? Has Mullan overtaken Marler? Perm 2 from Watson, Nowell and Yarde. Can Goode or Haley's form trump Brown's breakdown skills, defensive organisation and attitude (which Eddie clearly likes, even if the opposition hate it)? But mostly I think the squad will be fighting for bench slots, and even there George, Hill, Launchbury, Clifford and Care seem to have theirs sewn up for the time being.

But it only takes a niggle for things to change, as Launchbury knows to his cost. If Haskell or Robshaw pick up a dead leg, they could easily cede the shirt to Underhill or Hughes and might not get it back - as long as the replacement puts in a shift that's more Itoje than Harrison.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 3:30 pm

See how young Auterac goes next year.....struggled a bit but individually he looked a real prospect.

Him and Genge look to very good young LH's

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 4:54 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:See how young Auterac goes next year.....struggled a bit but individually he looked a real prospect.

Him and Genge look to very good young LH's

The problem for them is how young the competition is. Marler and Mako are both 25 and firmly established as top class internationals (now that the insanity of the RWC has been undone). Eddie will undoubtedly want to bring through some backups in case of injury, and it looks as if he favours letting Hatley get his claws on them young, so they have a good chance of being around the squad but they may need some time to break through.
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Post by DaveM on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 6:26 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:See how young Auterac goes next year.....struggled a bit but individually he looked a real prospect.

Him and Genge look to very good young LH's

I think Hepburn has pulled way ahead of Auterac, whose form seemed to fade badly as the season progressed.

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Post by DaveM on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 6:31 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Steenson is 32 and not getting any younger. I'm sure we'll more of Slade at 10 next season.

I don't think he has "played outstandingly well", he's looked good without setting the world alight. I sometimes wonder if people just jump on bandwagons of players without actually seeing much of them play sometimes.....not accusing you of this.

Steenson is arguably at his peak.

Slade wouldn't have gone to Australia if he hadn't played outstandingly well for Exeter, particularly before his injury. Like Itoje he's always stood out at whatever level he's played. Do I remember correctly that you were pretty sceptical about whether Itoje was worth the hype when we were talking about 6 Nations squads last season?

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 7:06 pm

Itoje is a rare beast though. It isn't really fair to measure the progress of other players by what he has achieved

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Post by DaveM on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 7:25 pm

lostinwales wrote:Itoje is a rare beast though. It isn't really fair to measure the progress of other players by what he has achieved

That's true. My point was simply that the Sarge possibly has an instinctive dislike of young, hyped players. Even if this is true, we all have our prejudices (I've been wrong about lots of thing EJ has done since he's come in). Plus he may be right - perhaps Slade is over-hyped and shouldn't be considered an option at 13.

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Post by DaveM on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 7:30 pm

Well, there are lots of options:

FH

Farrell
Ford
Cipriani
(Slade?)

IC

Farrell
Tuilagi
Teo
Mallinder
Slade

OC

JJ
Daly
Tuilagi
Slade

EJ can put together pretty much any type of midfield he wants. I bet he'd like at least one other option at FH though - a couple of injuries and a player out of form and we have a problem.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 7:31 pm

DaveM wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Itoje is a rare beast though. It isn't really fair to measure the progress of other players by what he has achieved

That's true. My point was simply that the Sarge possibly has an instinctive dislike of young, hyped players. Even if this is true, we all have our prejudices (I've been wrong about lots of thing EJ has done since he's come in). Plus he may be right - perhaps Slade is over-hyped and shouldn't be considered an option at 13.

I don't think that's quite fair, Itoje was last season seen more as a potential 6 but after an unprecedented season is possibly the number one lock in the Northern Hemisphere. Most young players need time to progress before being thrown into international rugby and one exception doesn't change that, Slade looked like a top prospect before his injury and hasn't shown the same level of promise since, needs time to get back to his best next season.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 7:38 pm

Slade and Mallinder can both play fly half. Plus there's Burns (remember him?)

In a pinch there is Myler. Tim Swiel - EQP via his mother, currently coming back from injury at Quins and billed as a fullback, but he's a very exciting running 10 who can't placekick reliably but could fit into a backline that had Farrell, Daly or Slade to do the kicking.

I also read that Beaumont played 10 at university level - has anyone ever seen him play there?

Longer term, Theo Brophy-Clews has potential but is young and will be injured for 3-6 months. The earliest he could be in consideration is AIs 2017 but more realistically he is an option for 2020+. Joe Marchant has also played fly half at junior level, I believe, but seems to be settling at OC.
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Post by kingelderfield on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 9:51 pm

Poorfour wrote:Slade and Mallinder can both play fly half. Plus there's Burns (remember him?)

In a pinch there is Myler. Tim Swiel - EQP via his mother, currently coming back from injury at Quins and billed as a fullback, but he's a very exciting running 10 who can't placekick reliably but could fit into a backline that had Farrell, Daly or Slade to do the kicking.

I also read that Beaumont played 10 at university level - has anyone ever seen him play there?

Longer term, Theo Brophy-Clews has potential but is young and will be injured for 3-6 months. The earliest he could be in consideration is AIs 2017 but more realistically he is an option for 2020+. Joe Marchant has also played fly half at junior level, I believe, but seems to be settling at OC.

Before his season ending injury, I thought Burns was really hitting his stride and was in fact the glue that fixed the 'New' Tigers together. Therefore I am really hoping that he's able to carry on post injury 2016/17 and progress the Tigers to the next level with Toomua eventually at his side.

Fly halves; Ford, Farrell, Cipriani, Burns, Slade, Malinder, Lozowski, Vickery etc.

p.s as for Beaumont I think this World rugby gig is just gonna take up to much time, but fare play to the fella if he's up for it.


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Post by kingelderfield on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 10:05 pm

T'other thing and of real import to the progress/development of the team/squad/s, is when are the details of the new club/country contract to be agreed/announced?

I might have missed this, though my understanding was that it's being hammered out now, as a shortened 4 year deal to co-inside with EJ's contract (was delayed due to the wc balls-up).

Furthermore I'm sure I've seen EJ comments to the effect the players must play less and so be protected from burn out.

Though he's not involved as a coach, I wonder what EJ's stance will be in terms of promoting the Lions, from a playing perspective?

Personally I hope he takes a very selfish viewpoint.

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Post by DaveM on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 10:29 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

I don't think that's quite fair, Itoje was last season seen more as a potential 6 but after an unprecedented season is possibly the number one lock in the Northern Hemisphere. Most young players need time to progress before being thrown into international rugby and one exception doesn't change that, Slade looked like a top prospect before his injury and hasn't shown the same level of promise since, needs time to get back to his best next season.

I always thought Itoje would mainly be a lock. For me Itoje is the most exciting player to have ever come through the academy system, so I'm not particularly surprised he's been an immediate success. As you say, Slade needs time to get fit.

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Post by kingelderfield on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 10:31 pm

I know our back row is looking immense, which is very impressive given it is actually in transition, and we are all hoping for special things from the likes of Hughes, Beaumont, Clifford, Jones(Sam) and others.

But the question is, what has become of the forgotten back row man of English Rugby, what does the future hold for Ben Morgan? Can he ever fight his way back into selection, does he actually have the heart?

Well I hope so and much like Slade, I think a real preseason may propel him into the autumn squad over some of the more tired and so slower season starters from this summers tour?

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Post by DaveM on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 10:34 pm

Poorfour wrote:Slade and Mallinder can both play fly half. Plus there's Burns (remember him?)

In a pinch there is Myler. Tim Swiel - EQP via his mother, currently coming back from injury at Quins and billed as a fullback, but he's a very exciting running 10 who can't placekick reliably but could fit into a backline that had Farrell, Daly or Slade to do the kicking.

I also read that Beaumont played 10 at university level - has anyone ever seen him play there?

Longer term, Theo Brophy-Clews has potential but is young and will be injured for 3-6 months. The earliest he could be in consideration is AIs 2017 but more realistically he is an option for 2020+. Joe Marchant has also played fly half at junior level, I believe, but seems to be settling at OC.

I completely forgot about Burns, and he should be on the list. If Lozowski starts well at Sarries then I could imagine him touring next summer. I don't think Myler or Swiel are options, and TBC will have to wait until 2018/19 at the earliest (and probably post WC as you say). Nonetheless, Burns and Lowowski have cheered me up when it comes to depth at FH.

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Post by DaveM on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 10:36 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
But the question is, what has become of the forgotten back row man of English Rugby, what does the future hold for Ben Morgan? Can he ever fight his way back into selection, does he actually have the heart?


I don't see any short-term way back for Morgan. Clifford, Hughes and Armand are the players providing competition and back-up for Vunipola at the moment.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 10:59 pm

DaveM wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:
But the question is, what has become of the forgotten back row man of English Rugby, what does the future hold for Ben Morgan? Can he ever fight his way back into selection, does he actually have the heart?


I don't see any short-term way back for Morgan. Clifford, Hughes and Armand are the players providing competition and back-up for Vunipola at the moment.

Its hard to say when he probably isn't quite back to the form he had before the leg break. But he also seems to be a player for the big occasion and its hard for him to prove himself in a new regime when he isn't playing in big occasions

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 11:03 pm

kingelderfield wrote:T'other thing and of real import to the progress/development of the team/squad/s, is when are the details of the new club/country contract to be agreed/announced?

I might have missed this, though my understanding was that it's being hammered out now, as a shortened 4 year deal to co-inside with EJ's contract (was delayed due to the wc balls-up).

Furthermore I'm sure I've seen EJ comments to the effect the players must play less and so be protected from burn out.

Though he's not involved as a coach, I wonder what EJ's stance will be in terms of promoting the Lions, from a playing perspective?

Personally I hope he takes a very selfish viewpoint.

Agree totally. I think we are also in the position that England as a team* are currently stronger than any Lions team we could put together. I think I will rather resent losing another summer of development

*(I.E. NOT BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT BETTER INDIVIDUALS IN THE REST OF BRITAIN& IRELAND)

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 29 Jun 2016, 11:46 pm

lostinwales wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:Personally I hope he takes a very selfish viewpoint.

Agree totally. I think we are also in the position that England as a team* are currently stronger than any Lions team we could put together. I think I will rather resent losing another summer of development

*(I.E. NOT BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT BETTER INDIVIDUALS IN THE REST OF BRITAIN& IRELAND)

He has already said that he thinks at least 15 Englishmen should travel with the Lions. I'm assuming that will be 10-11 forwards 2 fly halves, a scrum half and one outside back...
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Post by dgttaylor on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 1:39 am

Beaumont was a second row at university. Think he was a fly half during school days.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 6:10 am

DaveM wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Itoje is a rare beast though. It isn't really fair to measure the progress of other players by what he has achieved

That's true. My point was simply that the Sarge possibly has an instinctive dislike of young, hyped players. Even if this is true, we all have our prejudices (I've been wrong about lots of thing EJ has done since he's come in). Plus he may be right - perhaps Slade is over-hyped and shouldn't be considered an option at 13.

Not a dislike at all.

I just try not to get too carried away with hype and prefer to take players on their performances. I always said Itoje would be a star but I didn't think he was quite ready for the WC and the warm-ups was no place to be giving out debuts.

Slade is a different case to Itoje, he's had a few caps already. I also do rate Slade highly but not at 13 internationally, he's not quick enough. He'll be 10 or 12 going forward, probably a 10.

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Post by Poorfour on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 6:18 am

Sgt, Slade has had 2 caps - including one against Uruguay, the other I think as a late replacement - and a game against the Barbarians in which he started at 13, also spent some time at 10 and was superb.

That's hardly a basis on which to judge a player's international potential in any position.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 6:26 am

The point I was saying was that Itoje is a different case, he came straight in and impressed immediately after a superb season and numerous motm's.

Slade is off the back of a good season, I don't think he's been superb in any of his int appearances which is relativity normal for a youngster.

Again, I like Slade, but not at 13.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 8:07 am

Maybe not superb, but he was v good in the WC warm up, got picked and ignored for a flanker, then looked good against a poor Uruguay.

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 8:56 am

RE: Slade, injury came for him 'as I felt' just as he was about to break into the starting lineup in the last 6N. It was unfortunate, and EJ was very positive about him pre-6Ns. Subsequent games for Chiefs haven't been amazing with a few errors (but that's to be expected after coming back and time out - wasn't he also back from injury in record time? So, possibly not 100%).

Slade will massively benefit from the off season and some decent pre-season. I fully expect that he will still be named in the EPS and guys like Burrell might loose out and possibly be in the Saxons.

Itoje is an anomaly....not lost a game all season. He will be in the EPS for a long time if he can maintain his standards.

Guys at risk of dropping out of EPS when named for me -
Burrell - didn't fit into defensive patterns 'not sure why selected anyway'
LCD - possible competition from Taylor who had a good Saxons showing. Tom Youngs may come into the equation if he has a good start to season for Tigers.
Teo - We still haven't seen what he can do (Hopefully he doesn't become EJs Callum Clark, and is persistently named in squads and never used).

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:06 am

Tom Youngs Shocked

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:09 am

If he can prove a return to form then I don't see why he couldn't come back into the equation. Its not like LCD is hitting 100% with his throwing. When he broke onto the scene he was a destructive ball carrier too.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:12 am

Pooly likes Tom Youngs about as much as the Labour MPs like Corbyn

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:19 am

Always get nervous when I hear about miraculous recoveries from serious injuries such as Slade’s, Morgan’s (Cip’s all those years ago). Such injuries need a lot of rehabilitation when talking about playing top level rugby. Slade (& Morgan) should be left alone for a bit and allowed to recover fully before even thinking about test rugby.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:20 am

Haha....you're not far wrong Bam.

EJ has stated he doesn't rate Youngs set piece pre-England so I'd be surprised if he got back in contention. Hartley and George are clearly the best hookers available, the 3rd spot is relativity open, but I wouldn't expect Youngs to be one of those in the running, he's not good enough.

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Post by DaveM on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:24 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
DaveM wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Itoje is a rare beast though. It isn't really fair to measure the progress of other players by what he has achieved

That's true. My point was simply that the Sarge possibly has an instinctive dislike of young, hyped players. Even if this is true, we all have our prejudices (I've been wrong about lots of thing EJ has done since he's come in). Plus he may be right - perhaps Slade is over-hyped and shouldn't be considered an option at 13.

Not a dislike at all.

I just try not to get too carried away with hype and prefer to take players on their performances. I always said Itoje would be a star but I didn't think he was quite ready for the WC and the warm-ups was no place to be giving out debuts.

Slade is a different case to Itoje, he's had a few caps already. I also do rate Slade highly but not at 13 internationally, he's not quick enough. He'll be 10 or 12 going forward, probably a 10.

Ok, although I thought you were objecting to Itoje featuring in the 6 Nations.

In any case, ok but you are wrong about Slade lacking pace - he is quick.

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Post by DaveM on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:27 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Always get nervous when I hear about miraculous recoveries from serious injuries such as Slade’s, Morgan’s (Cip’s all those years ago). Such injuries need a lot of rehabilitation when talking about playing top level rugby. Slade (& Morgan) should be left alone for a bit and allowed to recover fully before even thinking about test rugby.

Slade's injury wasn't as bad as Cipriani's. With a few weeks' off now and then a good pre-season Slade should be fine.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:30 am

I'm not wrong Dave. I'm of the opinion he's not quick enough to play 13, you're of the opinion he is.....

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Post by DaveM on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:39 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not wrong Dave. I'm of the opinion he's not quick enough to play 13, you're of the opinion he is.....

Thinking Slade can't (or can) play 13 is an opinion, but yours is based on a factual error that Slade isn't fast. He is.

Slade has played all his rugby at 13 in the last couple of years, essentially, and in doing so has impressed two international coaches enough to get him into the squad. To say he can' play 13 under those circumstances seems to be ignoring the evidence to me.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:44 am

You're mis-reading Dave.

I don't think he's quick enough to be a good international 13. I've not said he's not quick, he's got decent pace for a 10/12. Jones has not picked him at 13 as far as I'm aware and has rumoured he was going to play 12 in the 6N.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:48 am

Jones hasn't picked him yet.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:50 am

DaveM wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not wrong Dave. I'm of the opinion he's not quick enough to play 13, you're of the opinion he is.....

Thinking Slade can't (or can) play 13 is an opinion, but yours is based on a factual error that Slade isn't fast. He is.

Slade has played all his rugby at 13 in the last couple of years, essentially, and in doing so has impressed two international coaches enough to get him into the squad. To say he can' play 13 under those circumstances seems to be ignoring the evidence to me.

What evidence?

I've watched him and don't think he's quick enough to be successful international 13. You've watched him and you think he is......they're both opinions, There's no facts involved.

As stated, EJ has not picked him in a squad. If he did, how do you know he would have played 13?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:56 am

Based on previous recent English 13s he doesn't lack pace.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Based on previous recent English 13s he doesn't lack pace.

JJ & Manu?

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