England 45-man EPS

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com


  • Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  • Nathan Hughes included for first time


England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:
While the dust settles on the most successful trip down South for an England team since 2003, Eddie Jones will have to start thinking about naming his first EPS squad that is completely his.

You would assume the 23 from that second test would form the bedrock of the squad, but then what about the other 10 spots? There are big question marks over:

Joe Marler
Undisputed first choice under Lancaster and just about held off Mako Vunipola during the Six Nations, but he's been hauled in front of the disciplinary committee three times since March and made himself unavailable for selection. Mako Vunipola has played very well and probably has the starting spot for the first Autumn International, but do you stick with Mullan as back-up or do you bring back Marler, assuming he's available?

Teimana Harrison and the backrow
So Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola and Clifford will all be in the EPS, but does Harrison come back from being subbed after 30 minutes? Beaumont is another option, as is Nathan Hughes now - but does he come straight into an EPS?

Centre options
Manu and Te'o were named in the initial squad for the Australia tour, with Burrell filling in for Manu. Burrell overtook Te'o and started the first test, but Burrell and the "Bosher" gameplan were both ditched after 30 minutes of the first test. Will Burrell recover? Did Jones not like what he saw from Te'o when he got into camp? And does Manu come back in? Do we use any of them?

We also have Slade, who toured and didn't get on the pitch or from left-field our best two under-20s were Mallinder and Marchant, do either of these come into consideration?

Saxons
The Saxons won their two "test" series in South Africa. Taylor, Attwood, Kvesic, Robson, Cipriani and Hill will all come into consideration.

Potential EPS
Forwards (19)
Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie
Mako Vunipola, Cole, Marler, Hill, Mullan, Brookes
Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Clifford, Hughes
Vunipola, Beaumont

Backs (14)
Youngs, Care, Robson
Ford, Farrell, Mallinder
Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
Yarde, Nowell, Watson
Brown, Goode

Who would you pick in your EPS if you were Eddie Jones?


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue 02 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Updating post for new developments)

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:02 am

He's faster than Manu, Barritt, Farrell. sure there's a few others there. he's not much slower than joseph to be fair. He's also a better footballer than all of those so if the intent is to fit a Tuilagi in at 12 (or the like) he would suit the expected role for the 13.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:07 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's faster than Manu, Barritt, Farrell. sure there's a few others there. he's not much slower than joseph to be fair. He's also a better footballer than all of those so if the intent is to fit a Tuilagi in at 12 (or the like) he would suit the expected role for the 13.

I'd disagree that he's quicker than Manu and nowhere near JJ or Daly.

You need either pace or power at 13 as you need to be able to beat your man if needed imo. I don't think Slade has enough of either to be a top 13.

I think he has all the skill sets to play 10/12. I seen him live make a break against Falcons and he was chased down by Ally Hogg, that's not quick enough imo.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:13 am

Ignoring the pace debate, when we've got a game plan working, like it appears to at the moment with Farrell/Ford, surely Slade should be seen as competing for either of those shirts with his skillset?

10 - Ford/Farrell/Slade/Cipriani
2nd playmaker who can threaten the line at 12 - Farrell/Slade/Devoto/Mallinder
Strike runner 13 - Joseph/Manu/Daly

Seems to be the most obvious way to ensure continuity to me. I think one of the biggest errors made in the past is the inability to define the style of the midfield - when it looks to be working, why tear it up?

On the Tuilagi point, I doubt he'll get much game time at 12 as first choice given they've signed Toomua, looks to me he'll be back at outside centre


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:27 am

He is quicker than Tuilagi.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He is quicker than Tuilagi.

Unless they have a foot race, the debate is pointless. I think Tuilagi is quicker, he can shift.

https://youtu.be/hiTI-8-87fQ

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:22 pm

Mike Brown is quicker than Tuilagi!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:30 pm

He's not Wink

Next you'll be saying Goode is! Even if he wasn't quick, he has an abundance of power which allows him to make the break.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:32 pm

Yup, plenty of power. Speed isn't really Tuilagis thing at all though.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup, plenty of power. Speed isn't really Tuilagis thing at all though.

Watch the first try and the one against France at about 3.20. Vicent Clerc can't catch him and Clerc is quick.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:50 pm

Watching those highlights.....I'd forgot how good Tuilagi is!

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 1:19 pm

Tuilagi is all about acceleration. His top speed is probably more good than great, but apparently he had the fastest acceleration in the English squad back in the day.

Probably why he looked so effective for us, take the ball standing (as usual for England) but then able to make something of it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 1:35 pm

Yeah watch him run down the wing in treacle vs NZ.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:31 pm

You're starting to sound like Beshocked Wink

I've gave you evidence that Tuilagi is not slow. He's obviously not winger quick, nobody is suggesting that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:35 pm

Ha. Low blow that. Just saying Slade is quicker, which he is!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:36 pm

The overall point is neither are as quick as Daly/May but their games mean they don't rely on that.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Low blow that. Just saying Slade is quicker, which he is!

There's zero evidence of this mate. I've very rarely seen Slade make a break, there's a number evidencing Tuilagi's gas on that clip. I've seen both in the flesh and Tuilagi is quicker, certainly over 10/20m where he can be quite explosive.

Saying he's quicker because I say so holds very little weight, I've never seen Slade gas somebody, certainly not a winger. As I said, I saw Ally Hogg catch him.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:45 pm

I guess it's just up to you to watch him.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:54 pm

I've watched him mate, as stated.

"Because he is" isn't really a valid point.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:57 pm

I really don't know what else to say. He's quicker. If that's a real hold up, it's not much of one.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I really don't know what else to say. He's quicker. If that's a real hold up, it's not much of one.

Little point carrying on with this one really. If you ever find anything to back your point up, we'll re-visit OK


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:17 pm

Like I said, watch him!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:20 pm

Enough Beshocked Wink

I'VE SEEN HIM PLAY!

I've seen him from about 10m away get chased down by Ally Hogg. I've showed you a video of Tuilagi failing to get chased down by Vincert Clerc, you've came back with "because he is".

It's kind of like debating with a 5 year old, you're better than this 71/2!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:22 pm

I don't know what to say Pooly. I'm unable to go trawling youtube or even watch it here. I just have to go on watching them both play. Neither are what you'd call speed demons, neither need to be. The only thing that would convince you is Slade starting at 13 for England anyway. Probably a matter of time.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:25 pm

boxing

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:26 pm

Fair one pal.

I doubt he will ever get that run to be honest with JJ, Daly and Manu seemingly ahead.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:27 pm

I'm still in a generally bad mood following that bloody vote, so you'll have to excuse my grouchiness.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:28 pm

We'll see Slade at some stage in the AIs I reckon.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 5:23 pm

Does any one think we will ever see the likes of Tom Wood, Ben Foden, Ben Morgan. back in the England squad any time soon.

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Post by doctor_grey on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 5:52 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one think we will ever see the likes of Tom Wood, Ben Foden, Ben Morgan. back in the England squad any time soon.
Doubtful.  

However, Wood has received clear marching orders from Jones indicating the things he needs to do to get back into consideration.  Since he has had the summer to rest and focus on the things he needs to do, he does have a chance.  He clearly does not get fazed by the big occasions which is important.  On the other hand, the back row is extremely competitive at the moment and all things being equal I would presume Jones would likely go for the younger body.

Foden is still recovering from his injuries, which were severe enough to have ended the professional sporting careers of other people.  However, if Foden does have his speed, change of direction, and acceleration back, he is as good as anyone in England.  He and Brown were choice 1 and 1A before Foden started his injury run.  Remember playing both of them?   However, just like Wood there are younger options available.  Something would have to happen to those younger options.  

Ben Morgan was recently observed coming out of a McDonalds with 27 cheeseburgers and a diet Coke.  His problem was that he couldn't, or rather didn't, control his conditioning and health.  He was clearly a good Number 8.  I think he has the longest road of the three back to the England squad.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 8:43 pm

Tom Wood will not make it back in the squad. That ship has sailed.

Same with Foden and I suspect Ben Morgan. Morgan is class on his day ut seems to find it too difficult to keep fit. Probably even harder with what Jones expects.

Besides Hughes is available....and as much as I loath that idea, he is an absolute beast of a player.
Ewers and Harrison will work on areas of their game as will Kvesic. Then theres underhill....who ive never seen but must be superman or in reality at the same level as Itoje for all the build up hes getting!

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 8:46 pm

Morgan getting mugged off mid break by a 19 year old on debut won't have done him any favours. He's a good ball carrier but his work rate is nowhere near high enough to warrant consideration in the current system.

Wood hasn't shown anywhere near enough form to move the obvious contenders aside, same with Croft really. Foden needs to be fit for a length of time to be considered same as Manu.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:24 pm

Agree Sam.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 9:44 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tom Wood will not make it back in the squad. That ship has sailed.

Same with Foden and I suspect Ben Morgan. Morgan is class on his day ut seems to find it too difficult to keep fit. Probably even harder with what Jones expects.

Besides Hughes is available....and as much as I loath that idea, he is an absolute beast of a player.
Ewers and Harrison will work on areas of their game as will Kvesic.  Then theres underhill....who ive never seen but must be superman or in reality  at the same level as Itoje for all the build up hes getting!
I am not convinced about Underhill. Looks okay in a weaker league. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:13 pm

Underhill is still young and developing, he's had one season in senior rugby I think Jones will wait until he's seen a little more. He doesn't want to select from outside of the AP and won't want to pressure Underhill to come out of an environment he is curently thriving in. There's no need to rush him on to the international scene and if he can be guided back to an AP club of his choice at 22 woth a degree in hand and plenty of first team rugby under his belt then that would be a perfect time to involve him (the year building up to the next RWC).

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:14 pm

Ive not seen 30 secs play of him, ive simply only heard the hype.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:17 pm

Ill be watching Harrison with interest. Hesd a good season for Saints..but maybe he got a little surprise at the physicality he was being asked to show under Eddie Jones.

Lets see if he can up that a little. Though hes not quite as big as Haskell, who himself has only shown this level of performance for a consistent period since Jones took over....

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 4:27 am

I do wonder whether Ben Te'o will win selection.

Jones likes his profile, but as soon as he went with Ford/Farrell, then Te'o never got a look-in.

Worcester may not be the best platform to show what he can do. Meanwhile, if Tuilagi gets fit, then he would most likely be first in line as a power inside centre.

There are a lot of players who need England to lose, or their rivals to get injured, to get a place in the match 23.

The Argentina tour is probably the best target for quite a few next year.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 7:13 am

Rugby Fan wrote:I do wonder whether Ben Te'o will win selection.

Jones likes his profile, but as soon as he went with Ford/Farrell, then Te'o never got a look-in.

Worcester may not be the best platform to show what he can do. Meanwhile, if Tuilagi gets fit, then he would most likely be first in line as a power inside centre.
I suspect the next time we see a power inside centre will be Mallinder's first game as he is the only power twelve who can be a second playmaker as well. I doubt we will see that in this year and certainly not in the Autumn. Maybe next summer when Farrell is likely to be with Lions.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 8:38 am

I think the realistic guy to get game time this Autumn is Robson. Another guy I'd love to see get a chance is Wade, limitied opportunity in SA but looked very good. Would think he'd need to start the season on fire though.

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Post by Cumbrian on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:58 am

I've been a big fan of Foden since his Sale days but I wonder at 31 (in a few weeks) if he still has enough desire/ speed to get up to that level again. It is a crying shame because for a long time I rated him above Mike Brown.

I wouldn't necessarily bin Morgan yet, he's a couple of injuries to rivals away from being a contender. If he stays fit and pulls up trees this season I can see him creating a selection headache. At 27 and a forward (sorry to keep banging on about age) he could reasonably expect to have 5 or 6 years left in the prime of his career. He is in danger of becoming the forgotten man of the back row though.

Regarding Underhill, I have literally only seen about 20 minutes of him actually playing. He seemed decent enough and I wonder where he will end up after his time in university. Will one of the big clubs come in for him?
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Post by yappysnap on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:22 am

Manu has to now be viewed as a 13. You can not change the 10/12 play maker gameplan that we use currently. And he'll be playing 13 for Tigers once Tamuua comes in.

If he ever stays fit that is.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:42 am

If Manu is fit and shows that he's learned to pass, I am sure Eddie would be happy to use him as a 12 - though very possibly off the bench. It's clear that he uses the bench to change the shape of the game and force the opposition to keep up - playing 50 or 60 minutes with Youngs, Ford, Farrell and Joseph and then moving to Care, Farrell, Manu and Joseph or even Care, Farrell, Manu, Slade with Joseph shifting to wing looks to me like exactly the sort of thing he'd do.

But he'd also have the option to stick with Ford and Farrell and put Manu in at 13.

I see this as possibly the most important difference between what Eddie is doing and what Lancaster was doing. Lancaster picked benches to close down games. Eddie picks benches to open them up and go for the jugular. It illustrates the difference in mindset.
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 12:11 pm

Manu's passing and offloading looked good last season. However I sincerely hope Jones does not rush him back into the squad again. That he was used in the 6Ns was crazy. If he gets a run of games at the start of the season, and looks good in Europe then he becomes an option.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 2:47 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Manu's passing and offloading looked good last season.
Compared to whom?

He might have improved but with the best in the world Manu is not a playmaking twelve which is the way the game is going.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 2:47 pm

I assume the EPS announcement will be in August as it usually is. I think Lancaster got dispensation to delay the announcement last year to give him more room to see how players performed during the warm-up matches.

If so, then Jones will already know as much as he can know about the players available to him. There'll be no early premiership games to see who everyone's going.

He'll be quite keen to know if anyone has an injury likely to keep them out of the autumn internationals. He could still select that player in the knowledge that he's allowed to name a replacement. As far as we know, though, there's a fairly clean bill of health for everyone who went on tour. I suppose Haskell's foot might be an issue, given that the player said it had been bothering him for a while.

Tuilagi and Beaumont missed out on selection through injury, so it'll be interesting to hear how they are progressing.

Jeff Probyn makes a fair point when he says:

The current distraction of how many games England can go without losing one is in danger of becoming a ‘monkey on the back’ of the whole squad with players dreading being part of the team that eventually loses the record.
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/jeff-probyn/26246/jeff-probyn-column-eddies-put-basics-in-place-now-lets-add-killer-instinct/

It may seem presumptuous and bizarre to worry about a winning streak, but we won't really learn much about England if we use the same basic tour 23 for our Autumn Internationals. In the best case we reach deep into the EPS to field players against Fiji and Argentina.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 2:57 pm

I wouldn't get so hung up on the playmaker / crashballer at 12.

Eddie has said all along...horses for courses ....OPTIONS.

He'll view each game as at it comes. It maybe he wants a bruising Tuilagi at 12 for one game...or a playmaker in another. He's made it clear its about options...but those options must be at the level he requires.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:03 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wouldn't get so hung up on the playmaker / crashballer at 12.

Eddie has said all along...horses for courses ....OPTIONS.

He'll view each game as at it comes. It maybe he wants a bruising Tuilagi at 12 for one game...or a playmaker in another. He's made it clear its about options...but those options must be at the level he requires.

Absolutely. Flexibility is key. Same with strategies - the 2 play maker system we used in Oz was very successful because Ford and Farrell have very complimentary skill sets. For Australia you could just as easily claim that they were better in the last test because Tomooa(sp!) is a better more multi-skilled player at 12 than Kerevi. The results of their previous attempts to bring in Leifano to help Foley were pretty poor.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:14 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wouldn't get so hung up on the playmaker / crashballer at 12.
Woodward didn't. Nasty men getting at Wilkinson? Catt to take pressure off (Wales 2nd half/France at the World Cup). Stirling Mortlock heading your way and need more beef? Mike Tindall in the final.


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:26 pm

Jones has even shown early in a game if its not happening he'll change it.

Twice in the Oz series he made early change. Burrell and Harrison both off early in the first half.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 5:15 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jones has even shown early in a game if its not happening he'll change it.

Twice in the Oz series he made early change. Burrell and Harrison both off early in the first half.
I'm happy he was so decisive, but Burrell and Harrison were both selections he made when his first choices weren't available, so there's a seed of doubt about how good he is about looking beyond his preferred players.

Hey, it's still early days.

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