England 45-man EPS

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com


  • Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  • Nathan Hughes included for first time


England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:
While the dust settles on the most successful trip down South for an England team since 2003, Eddie Jones will have to start thinking about naming his first EPS squad that is completely his.

You would assume the 23 from that second test would form the bedrock of the squad, but then what about the other 10 spots? There are big question marks over:

Joe Marler
Undisputed first choice under Lancaster and just about held off Mako Vunipola during the Six Nations, but he's been hauled in front of the disciplinary committee three times since March and made himself unavailable for selection. Mako Vunipola has played very well and probably has the starting spot for the first Autumn International, but do you stick with Mullan as back-up or do you bring back Marler, assuming he's available?

Teimana Harrison and the backrow
So Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola and Clifford will all be in the EPS, but does Harrison come back from being subbed after 30 minutes? Beaumont is another option, as is Nathan Hughes now - but does he come straight into an EPS?

Centre options
Manu and Te'o were named in the initial squad for the Australia tour, with Burrell filling in for Manu. Burrell overtook Te'o and started the first test, but Burrell and the "Bosher" gameplan were both ditched after 30 minutes of the first test. Will Burrell recover? Did Jones not like what he saw from Te'o when he got into camp? And does Manu come back in? Do we use any of them?

We also have Slade, who toured and didn't get on the pitch or from left-field our best two under-20s were Mallinder and Marchant, do either of these come into consideration?

Saxons
The Saxons won their two "test" series in South Africa. Taylor, Attwood, Kvesic, Robson, Cipriani and Hill will all come into consideration.

Potential EPS
Forwards (19)
Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie
Mako Vunipola, Cole, Marler, Hill, Mullan, Brookes
Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Clifford, Hughes
Vunipola, Beaumont

Backs (14)
Youngs, Care, Robson
Ford, Farrell, Mallinder
Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
Yarde, Nowell, Watson
Brown, Goode

Who would you pick in your EPS if you were Eddie Jones?


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue 02 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Updating post for new developments)

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 5:57 pm

Incidentally, on Harrison, has anyone got a view on whether he was that bad?

Around the time Burrell went off in the first test, the game began to turn in England's favour. I didn't notice the same when Harrison went off. The score was 15-17 to England and it stayed pretty much like that for the rest of the game.

I tried to keep an eye on him, and he did seem to spend a lot of time deciding not to participate at the breakdown in favour of spreading out in defence.

Did anyone notice any glaring deficiencies in his play which cleared up once he left?

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 6:31 pm

No, Harrison was not bad. But he did not seem to be overly involved in the way a flanker needs to be. Hesitant is the way I would describe him. He was like that in his early Saints days. Maybe he needs to bed in a little more? He certainly got over that at Saints and had a very good second half of the season.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 7:47 pm

He just lacked physicality I think, it's a big jump. I had concerns with his fitness against Wales, he just needs to up his game.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 8:30 pm

I think Harrison will come good. It was his first venture in to the England side.

He will learn and realise what he needs to do.

However physically Harrison and Haskell are different so Jones shouldn't expect the same. Harrison is also a different type of player. He shouldn't be expected to play the sheer physical role that Haskell is being asked to play. We actually don't have many like Haskell in that regard...maybe Hughes, Ewers...


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Post by Poorfour on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 8:56 pm

Harrison wasn't getting out of the line and stopping Australia behind the gain line, which Haskell has been doing very effectively all year, and as GF says we don't have anyone else who could quite do the same. It's the combination of size, speed and aggression.

Clifford possibly could, if Quins spent the summer injecting him with chemicals extracted from Mike Brown's brain. Ewers probably could but I'm not sure about his speed; he's a tank, but I've not seen him shift like Haskell can.

Underhill doesn't look to have the raw power, but then he would probably be asked to do a different job, one more like Pocock (when he's not playing 8) or Richard Hill (when he played 7). There was a comment somewhere above about Underhill playing in a lesser league or some such; simply not true, at least for a flanker. Whenever I've seen him play he's been up against a selection of Welsh internationals, and has not looked out of place.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 8:58 pm

Underhill's power is the exact reason he's been hyped up so much. He's extremley physical in the tackle, ala Haskell, but stronger at the breakdown.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:23 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Underhill's power is the exact reason he's been hyped up so much. He's extremley physical in the tackle, ala Haskell, but stronger at the breakdown.

He's very physical, I agree. But he's not as big or fast as Haskell so the impact with which he hits is less, and that's what I was getting at.

Underhill is 3 inches shorter and 15 kg lighter than Haskell, so he is not going to hit with the same absolute power. What he does do is hit with real ferocity and excellent technique, especially for one so young. The other thing I have seen him do is read the tackle or ruck so well that he can shape how he goes into it based on whether he's going after the ball or just stopping the man. Not many players can do that as instinctively as he does.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:24 pm

I agree Poorfour, Clifford doesn't have the aggression.

But Haskell is only 31...not finished yet. Lets see how long he can keep up this rich vein of form...

I haven't seen one clip of Underhill....so cant comment. It may be that the tactics will have to change with out Haskell....to alow for lighter less aggressive flankers....but maybe more mobile ...

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:30 pm

I think Harrison wasn't bad - but he did seem a little lost. We did seem stronger after he went off but that is as much about Lawes having a good game as Harrison looking that bad. And that other guy who shifted over to 6 seemed to have done alright (wasn't quite his best though)

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:37 pm

It was Harrisons first outing for England...bar that wales game.

Everyone needs time to adjust to this level...unless your called Lomu or Itoje....


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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:51 pm

I was surprised Harrison was thrown in tbh, I was thinking he wasn't quite ready.

I'd be a little dubious of those stats Poorfour, they have Haskell as close to 120kg which he obviously isn't.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:53 pm

Surely Haskell is close to 19 stone?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 9:56 pm

Haskell is around 17 isn't he. 19? no way.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:00 pm

England, Wasps and Wikipedia(!) put him around 18.5 stone.

Yes, probably exaggerated but he's much bigger than 17 stone.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:02 pm

Those stats have him the same as Launchbury which he clearly isn't. I'd guess Haskell around 105-110Kg tbh

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:08 pm

Done a few searches and the average has Haskell around 114kg - 17st 9.

I could go along with that.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:15 pm

So, he's only a bit bigger than Robshaw? He always looks much heavier.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:30 pm

Cyril wrote:So, he's only a bit bigger than Robshaw? He always looks much heavier.

Probably how its distributed. Haskell is quite 'top heavy'

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Post by Cyril on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:32 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Cyril wrote:So, he's only a bit bigger than Robshaw? He always looks much heavier.

Probably how its distributed. Haskell is quite 'top heavy'
Could be. Haskell has a good turn of pace as seen in the recent series.

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:43 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Cyril wrote:So, he's only a bit bigger than Robshaw? He always looks much heavier.

Probably how its distributed. Haskell is quite 'top heavy'
His brain? Really?

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Post by Cyril on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:54 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Cyril wrote:So, he's only a bit bigger than Robshaw? He always looks much heavier.

Probably how its distributed. Haskell is quite 'top heavy'
His brain?  Really?
Jones now has Haskell's brain on remote-control. It works.

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Post by DaveM on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 12:39 am

yappysnap wrote:Manu has to now be viewed as a 13. You can not change the 10/12 play maker gameplan that we use currently. And he'll be playing 13 for Tigers once Tamuua comes in.

If he ever stays fit that is.

Well apart from the fact EJ said he definitely isn't a 13.

Interesting to see what Tigers do, but I suspect EJ still sees him as a 12.

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Post by yappysnap on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 9:04 am

Poorfour wrote:Harrison wasn't getting out of the line and stopping Australia behind the gain line, which Haskell has been doing very effectively all year, and as GF says we don't have anyone else who could quite do the same. It's the combination of size, speed and aggression.

Clifford possibly could, if Quins spent the summer injecting him with chemicals extracted from Mike Brown's brain. Ewers probably could but I'm not sure about his speed; he's a tank, but I've not seen him shift like Haskell can.

Underhill doesn't look to have the raw power, but then he would probably be asked to do a different job, one more like Pocock (when he's not playing 8) or Richard Hill (when he played 7). There was a comment somewhere above about Underhill playing in a lesser league or some such; simply not true, at least for a flanker. Whenever I've seen him play he's been up against a selection of Welsh internationals, and has not looked out of place.

I think Hughes could do the Haskell thing, he's got the right combination of power, speed and aggression plus the same disregard for his own safety. Lawes actually did it well when he came on too, perhaps there's a future for him and Itoje playing flanker at times when cover is needed.

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Post by yappysnap on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 9:07 am

DaveM wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Manu has to now be viewed as a 13. You can not change the 10/12 play maker gameplan that we use currently. And he'll be playing 13 for Tigers once Tamuua comes in.

If he ever stays fit that is.

Well apart from the fact EJ said he definitely isn't a 13.

Interesting to see what Tigers do, but I suspect EJ still sees him as a 12.

What EJ says and what EJ does are two different things. He's Australian so loves to confuse the British media.

Also it's a bit stupid to think a coach can't have an opinion, try it out (with Burrell and Manu) see its failed and try something else. You think because of one media sound bite he's now going to hamstring himself for the rest of his tenure as England coach?

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 4:37 pm

doctor_grey wrote:No, Harrison was not bad.  But he did not seem to be overly involved in the way a flanker needs to be.  Hesitant is the way I would describe him.  He was like that in his early Saints days.  Maybe he needs to bed in a little more?  He certainly got over that at Saints and had a very good second half of the season.  

I think Harrison struggled to adapt to the Gustard defensive system. The England communication and cohesion in defence was exceptional against a quality Aus attack. I don't think he was up to speed with that and so was not really in the game. Lawes seems to thrive in the Gustard defence and so the switch just gave us more cohesion. Harrison might not get another chance with the flanker options so plentiful.

Yappysnap, I think EJ bigged up Manu as a Nonu esque centre shoot he had in his mind a NZ style hammer and sickle centre combo. Now he's changed his mind he'll probably change his tune. At the time he made his comments over Manu at 12 he seemed to be pushing for Tigers to play him at 12 now his mind has changed he'll probably be happy for Manu not focus at 13 instead.

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Post by DaveM on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 8:23 pm

yappysnap wrote:
DaveM wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Manu has to now be viewed as a 13. You can not change the 10/12 play maker gameplan that we use currently. And he'll be playing 13 for Tigers once Tamuua comes in.

If he ever stays fit that is.

Well apart from the fact EJ said he definitely isn't a 13.

Interesting to see what Tigers do, but I suspect EJ still sees him as a 12.

What EJ says and what EJ does are two different things. He's Australian so loves to confuse the British media.

Also it's a bit stupid to think a coach can't have an opinion, try it out (with Burrell and Manu) see its failed and try something else. You think because of one media sound bite he's now going to hamstring himself for the rest of his tenure as England coach?

I doubt EJ has decided never to play a lump at 12 ever again. Events in the game he started Burrell in forced him to move Farrell to 12 and it worked so he stuck with it. Ford - Farrell doesn't feel like the long-term solution to me, and all sorts of other combinations are available. You made a statement about Tuilagi's best position, but all we know is EJ's only public statement on the matter contradicts your view (btw I think Jones basically does do what he says).

If EJ is to see Tuilagi as a 13 then he'll probably be sacrificing pace in the midfield, and also it remains to be seen whether Manu can handle defending in the difficult 13 shirt in Gustard's system. All of this is moot though, as I remain to be convinced he'll be able to stay fit along enough to even be considered in either shirt.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 03 Jul 2016, 1:16 am

DaveM wrote:...(btw I think Jones basically does do what he says)...
I swear to you he doesn't. A constant theme during his time with Japan was how he would say one thing, then do another. It's one of the first observations I made on this board when he was appointed.

I don't think he's playing mind games. With Japan, it just seemed like Jones would talk about how he'd like to do things in an ideal world, and then promptly do something else because reality differed from that ideal. It happened in regard to personnel appointments, player selection, tactical emphasis and training routines.

He may change the way does things with England, but, given his background, there's every reason to take his public statements with a pinch of salt.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Mon 04 Jul 2016, 10:06 am

Like any physical sport, player's stats are always exaggerated. The NFL is notorious for it, and rugby follows the same path. It's part of the 'off the field' game- trying to get a psychological advantage over other teams. Pocock had always been listed as 5'11 (which he definitely looks) until the world cup, when suddenly he was being reported as 6'1 and occasionally 6'2 in game day brochures and websites. Anyway, no way Haskell is 120kg! Definitely more 110kg.

Regarding Harrison- I think he was just overawed by the occasion and like a few other posters on here, I reckon he will come good. His defence wasn't good enough in my opinion. His line speed was excellent, but he'd often just nudge the ball carrier rather than take them down. Haskell was dropping people well below the gainline, and I think that's what EJ was hoping for. When it became obvious Harrison wasn't making his tackles, He decided to bring Lawes on (who I thought was excellent by the way) to inject some aggression behind the gainline.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 04 Jul 2016, 11:09 am

bluestonevedder wrote:Like any physical sport, player's stats are always exaggerated. The NFL is notorious for it, and rugby follows the same path. It's part of the 'off the field' game- trying to get a psychological advantage over other teams. Pocock had always been listed as 5'11 (which he definitely looks) until the world cup, when suddenly he was being reported as 6'1 and occasionally 6'2 in game day brochures and websites. Anyway, no way Haskell is 120kg! Definitely more 110kg.

Regarding Harrison- I think he was just overawed by the occasion and like a few other posters on here, I reckon he will come good. His defence wasn't good enough in my opinion. His line speed was excellent, but he'd often just nudge the ball carrier rather than take them down. Haskell was dropping people well below the gainline, and I think that's what EJ was hoping for. When it became obvious Harrison wasn't making his tackles, He decided to bring Lawes on (who I thought was excellent by the way) to inject some aggression behind the gainline.

I love our use of mixed measuring systems. About Haskell's size. I am a well built moderately fit middle aged guy at 6 ft tall and about 105kg. I would not at all be surprised if Haskell was a good 10kg heavier even if 120 is pushing it.

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Post by englandglory4ever on Mon 04 Jul 2016, 6:08 pm

Burrell and Harison didn't play bodyline rugby. Neither of them got anywhere near the ball enough in their 20 minute outings. Harrison for a 7 was remarkable in how little he did. He jogged from breakdown to breakdown without ever actually causing one himself. Very poor for a 7 and way off the contribution made by Haskell in previous matches. He has got promise but needs to really step up if he gets another chance. Burrell I would say is on the scrap heap because, like Ashton, he doesn't really like defending. Nowell will also need to show what he can do in defence too as Folau treated him like a speed bump. But he does that to most people I suppose.

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Post by DaveM on Tue 05 Jul 2016, 12:36 am

Rugby Fan wrote:

He may change the way does things with England, but, given his background, there's every reason to take his public statements with a pinch of salt.

He may well have said one thing and doe another with Japan, but are there many examples of him doing so with England so far?

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 05 Jul 2016, 4:21 am

DaveM wrote:He may well have said one thing and doe another with Japan, but are there many examples of him doing so with England so far?
In January, he said his back room appointments were "all done and dusted", and the press decided this was evidence of Jones being his own man, since he was taking on the responsibility for attack/backs. Jones also spoke about the value of keeping the coaching team small.  

By March, Jones had decided he wanted a scrum coach again, and appointed Neal Hatley the following month. He also said he wanted a assistant backs coach, who would just be temporary, and got Glen Ella. He then said he wanted a permanent appointment and was interviewing English candidates. Then he said he wouldn't rule out Ella for the job.

Jones said Chris Robshaw is definitely not a seven but played him in that position as recently as the last Test match. He talked up the need for specialist seven, but ignored the options available and settled for Haskell, who definitely isn't the sort of seven he first described.

I don't have a problem with any of this, but pundits keep tying themselves in knots, because they've been taking him at face value. It's amusing to see u-turns described as Jones being "decisive", when it's more likely the case that Jones has no sense at all that he ever changed his mind.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 05 Jul 2016, 5:15 am

This is notable, especially for Mike Brown:

The Rugby Paper can reveal that two England players – Owen Farrell (34 matches) and Mako Vunipola (36) – had exceeded the RFU’s 32-game seasonal limit prior to yesterday’s third Test against Australia, while full-back Mike Brown had equalled it.

Brown, whose season began against France on August 22, had recorded the most game-time of any England player prior to the Sydney clash, racking up 2,428 minutes in all competitions at an average of 75.9 minutes per match over a 45-week campaign.

Harlequins teammate Chris Robshaw followed closely behind on 2,252 minutes at 75.1 minutes per game, while Farrell, Billy Vunipola, George Kruis and Maro Itoje have all notched over 2,000 minutes during ultra-intense seasons.


Not sure what the point is of game limits if they are going to be ignored.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/26274/players-heading-for-another-post-lions-burnout-say-rpa/

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Jul 2016, 8:05 am

Rugby Fan wrote:This is notable, especially for Mike Brown:

The Rugby Paper can reveal that two England players – Owen Farrell (34 matches) and Mako Vunipola (36) – had exceeded the RFU’s 32-game seasonal limit prior to yesterday’s third Test against Australia, while full-back Mike Brown had equalled it.

Brown, whose season began against France on August 22, had recorded the most game-time of any England player prior to the Sydney clash, racking up 2,428 minutes in all competitions at an average of 75.9 minutes per match over a 45-week campaign.

Harlequins teammate Chris Robshaw followed closely behind on 2,252 minutes at 75.1 minutes per game, while Farrell, Billy Vunipola, George Kruis and Maro Itoje have all notched over 2,000 minutes during ultra-intense seasons.


Not sure what the point is of game limits if they are going to be ignored.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/26274/players-heading-for-another-post-lions-burnout-say-rpa/

I suspect they did not check every player, as with Mako, Dan Cole also played 36 matches. 15 tests for England all as a starter (and usually playing deep into games) and 21 for Leicester with 5 coming from the bench.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 05 Jul 2016, 8:36 am

I think if you have paid attention to him Eddie has been very consistent in what he's said. On the openside question, he's been clear that the only conventional EQP openside who meets his criteria is Underhill, but that Haskell can do a job in that role. And he's done it rather well. It is a nice irony that Robshaw has ended up playing 7 a fair bit, but again, it's in the spirit of playing a specific role rather than being a conventional 7.

On coaching appointments, I'm pretty sure he was referring to his 6 Nations coaching team, but it's in the man's nature to continually push the envelope and look for further advantage. Players can't take in too many new voices at once (which is why defence tends to be settled before attack when a coaching regime changes), but now Borthwick and Gustard's systems are bedded in it's totally expected that he would want to broaden the team. I'd expect the coaching team to continue to change in pursuit of new ideas - more like a tennis coaching setup than a rugby one. Woodward did something similar.
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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 05 Jul 2016, 10:56 am

These consultant coaches seem to be the way forward. In the same vein that EJ came into the SA group of 2007.
Its paid dividends so far. I wonder if this is something he will continue.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 05 Jul 2016, 11:27 am

I wouldn't be surprised. By employing specialists for specific tours or campaigns he gets to bring a fresh perspective and (as with Ella) insight on the opposition without having to add to his permanent staff.

If England want to challenge the All Blacks at the very top, they will need to keep adding to their armoury and tactical flexibility, and point specialists are a great way to do it.
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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 05 Jul 2016, 2:48 pm

Poorfour wrote:I think if you have paid attention to him Eddie has been very consistent in what he's said.
Yes and no. The Japanese press used to say the same. When Jones did something different from what he had stated, they'd go back and reinterpret what he said to include what he's just done. However, the easiest way to understand what had happened was always this: what he said and what he did were different.

The reason I think you are right about his consistency is that, in his own mind, he is always being consistent, because he's always thinking about what is the best decision.

I only labour this point because no-one can confidently say where Tuilagi figures in Jones' plans based on what he has said. We'll only know Jones thinks he's not an outside centre when he chooses not to play him there.

On the same basis, I don't rule out Jones being in contention for a Lions job just because he's said he isn't available. Actually, I don't think he will do it, and I hope he doesn't. However, there's definitely a way Jones could see the world which would square the circle.

Jones wants England to surpass the All Blacks but we currently aren't currently scheduled to play them. He could decide that seeing his main target up close as early as possible will help England. Jones has also expressed concerns about England player welfare. If there's as large a contingent of England players destined for the Lions as he imagines, then he might want some oversight.

As I say, I don't think Jones will go to to NZ next year, but I'll only be sure of that when he hasn't been named in any capacity to the Lions coaching team.

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Post by doctor_grey on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 12:47 am

I am not sure if you are talking about Eddie Jones or my wife (say one thing and do another, then reinterpret). My wife has more hair.

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Post by broadlandboy on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 7:57 am

If Jones had his England head on he would take the lions job & then leave the England players at home for the summer to have a good rest while getting a good look at the opposition & finding the weaknesses of the Home Union players.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 9:01 am

broadlandboy wrote:If Jones had his England head on he would take the lions job & then leave the England players at home for the summer to have a good rest while getting a good look at the opposition & finding the weaknesses of the Home Union players.

No, he wouldn't, because that would be terrible man management. Whatever reason he gave the excluded players, it would seriously damage morale. For a home nations player, winning a Lions cap is the pinnacle of a career, exceeded only by winning the RWC. For instance, unless they've changed the criteria recently, entry into the Harlequins Hall of Fame is only open to Quins who have played for the Lions.

While it might be better for them bodily to be rested, in psychological terms the players will want that accolade and experience.

I also believe Eddie - and Ian Ritchie - when they say he won't be made available to the Lions. I would not be at all surprised to see Gustard and possibly Borthwick join the tour, though.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 9:11 am

Is that true Poorfour (Quins HoF), could be a big kick in the teeth for Robshaw as not sure he'll get taken next year and he's been immense for England (v unlucky not to go last time).

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 9:23 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is that true Poorfour (Quins HoF), could be a big kick in the teeth for Robshaw as not sure he'll get taken next year and he's been immense for England (v unlucky not to go last time).

I am pretty sure those are the criteria. Just tried to check online but couldn't find a definitive link. It would be incredibly harsh on Robshaw - Quins' most successful captain of the modern era - especially since he was passed over for the Lions in favour of a player with a broken leg.
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Post by bathmad on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 10:30 am

Didn't Ritchie announce that he was going to find a way to get Underhill in the EPS, exceptional circumstances or otherwise? The few times I've seen him, I've been very impressed particularly around his decision making. Would love to see him get a go, and I would put him above Harrison or Clifford.
Let's get him playing for Bath (obviously), Bristol, or Gloucester, which could allow him to continue his studies in Cardiff (why does he not play for the Blues by the way - driving to Swansea must be annoying!).

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Post by Cumbrian on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 10:53 am

bathmad wrote:Didn't Ritchie announce that he was going to find a way to get Underhill in the EPS, exceptional circumstances or otherwise? The few times I've seen him, I've been very impressed particularly around his decision making. Would love to see him get a go, and I would put him above Harrison or Clifford.
Let's get him playing for Bath (obviously), Bristol, or Gloucester, which could allow him to continue his studies in Cardiff (why does he not play for the Blues by the way - driving to Swansea must be annoying!).

I kind of agree about him moving back to our side of the bridge, but only to a club that would actually play him. Is there room in the Bath back-row? Gloucester have Kvesic and I am not sure about Bris. Would hate to see him move from a club where he was thriving and getting game time to bench warming.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:13 am

Everyone slates Robshaw yet when they see what he actually does, he always seems to change their opinion. He's done it with Jones now aswell.

How he didn't go on the last Lions tour ill never know.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:15 am

bathmad wrote:Didn't Ritchie announce that he was going to find a way to get Underhill in the EPS, exceptional circumstances or otherwise? The few times I've seen him, I've been very impressed particularly around his decision making. Would love to see him get a go, and I would put him above Harrison or Clifford.
Let's get him playing for Bath (obviously), Bristol, or Gloucester, which could allow him to continue his studies in Cardiff (why does he not play for the Blues by the way - driving to Swansea must be annoying!).

He signed up to play for Bridgend whilst studying, not sure why exactly. As Bridgend are a feeder club for the Ospreys - that explains that bit.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:16 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Everyone slates Robshaw yet when they see what he actually does, he always seems to change their opinion. He's done it with Jones now aswell.

How he didn't go on the last Lions tour ill never know.

Gats saw Warbs and SOB as his 7s.

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Post by bathmad on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:18 am

Cumbrian wrote:
bathmad wrote:Didn't Ritchie announce that he was going to find a way to get Underhill in the EPS, exceptional circumstances or otherwise? The few times I've seen him, I've been very impressed particularly around his decision making. Would love to see him get a go, and I would put him above Harrison or Clifford.
Let's get him playing for Bath (obviously), Bristol, or Gloucester, which could allow him to continue his studies in Cardiff (why does he not play for the Blues by the way - driving to Swansea must be annoying!).

I kind of agree about him moving back to our side of the bridge, but only to a club that would actually play him.  Is there room in the Bath back-row?  Gloucester have Kvesic and I am not sure about Bris.  Would hate to see him move from a club where he was thriving and getting game time to bench warming.

Absolutely - 6 Louw, 7 Underhill, 8 Faletau. Good job I'm sitting down....

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:22 am

So, when is the EPS going to be named? Is it before the domestic season starts?

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