LV Cup Returns

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/anglo-welsh-cup-return-next-11548179

Good to see the Anglo-Welsh Cup is back.

Nice to see natural rivals that share a border in a competition together.

Meh, but it is free games on the season ticket!

That will be the tourny where the welsh sides take the cash and send their U20s over the bridge. You have more chance spotting Lord Lucian than a Welsh test player. The sooner it is ditched and AP sides go back to playing Championship sides in a FA Cup style knockout, the better.

Recwatcher16 wrote:That will be the tourny where  the welsh sides take the cash and send their U20s over the bridge. You have more chance spotting Lord Lucian than a Welsh test player. The sooner it is ditched and AP sides go back to playing Championship sides in a FA Cup style knockout, the better.

Erm, it's played on Test Weekends so you're right that "You have more chance spotting Lord Lucian than a Welsh test player".

It's supposed to be a development competition.

The LV hasn't always been test weekends but yes latterly that has been the case and I should probably have expanded it to any first team players we might recognise.
As a ST holder most view these weekends as a social and a development game where most players don't really get developed.

Recwatcher16 wrote:The LV hasn't always been test weekends but yes latterly that has been the case and I should probably have expanded it to any first team players we might recognise.
As a ST holder most view these weekends as a social and a development game where most players don't really get developed.

When was the LV not on test weekends?

Unless you're confusing it with the EDF.

I can't see the point of the LV Cup, for development of the regions there is the British and Irish Cup.

It would make more sense to ditch the LV Cup and Aviva teams enter 'A' teams into the British and Irish Cup instead.

Or possibly the best idea, enter the 12 Aviva teams, 12 Championship teams, and 10 Pro 12 teams
in a straight, maybe have top 8 play off teams from last season enter slightly later.

Straight knock out, home and away games, one final

Means there would be between 2 and 9 games for a team, most likily around 7/8 for the big teams, and even then most likily they will be putting out 'A' teams in the first rounds.

While it may be better to watch, there are less games for development, so maybe not

Kingshu wrote:I can't see the point of the LV Cup, for development of the regions there is the British and Irish Cup.

It would make more sense to ditch the LV Cup and Aviva teams enter 'A' teams into the British and Irish Cup instead.

Or possibly the best idea, enter the 12 Aviva teams, 12 Championship teams, and 10 Pro 12 teams
in a straight, maybe have top 8 play off teams from last season enter slightly later.

Straight knock out, home and away games, one final

Means there would be between 2 and 9 games for a team, most likily around 7/8 for the big teams, and even then most likily they will be putting out 'A' teams in the first rounds.

While it may be better to watch, there are less games for development, so maybe not

There is only space for 6 games. The point of the LV is to provide at least two home games and, in total, four games for development.

The B&I Cup is a level down again.

Of course, the other point of the LV is for the PRL/PRW relationship to maintain contact.

Yes I call it LV but mean the AP/welsh games.
Pretty sure match ups against Championship sides would generate more interest and they would be at least as motivated and probably more so than the welsh franchises, which represent Wales but not much else.

AP sides playing Pro12 sides in euro comps and that is enough, otherwise it is overkill.

PhilBB wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:That will be the tourny where  the welsh sides take the cash and send their U20s over the bridge. You have more chance spotting Lord Lucian than a Welsh test player. The sooner it is ditched and AP sides go back to playing Championship sides in a FA Cup style knockout, the better.

Erm, it's played on Test Weekends so you're right that "You have more chance spotting Lord Lucian than a Welsh test player".

It's supposed to be a development competition.

Who is Lord Lucian?

I remember some bloke who supposedly killed his Nanny and then disappeared, looked like a modern version of Lord Kitchiner on the "Your Country Needs You" posters

Though his name was Lucan.


Incedentally I worked around the corner from Eaton Square when it all happened, couldn't move for police and camera wagons for days

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:That will be the tourny where  the welsh sides take the cash and send their U20s over the bridge. You have more chance spotting Lord Lucian than a Welsh test player. The sooner it is ditched and AP sides go back to playing Championship sides in a FA Cup style knockout, the better.

Erm, it's played on Test Weekends so you're right that "You have more chance spotting Lord Lucian than a Welsh test player".

It's supposed to be a development competition.

Who is Lord Lucian?

I remember some bloke who supposedly killed his Nanny and then disappeared, looked like a modern version of Lord Kitchiner on the "Your Country Needs You" posters

Though his name was Lucan.


Incedentally I worked around the corner from Eaton Square when it all happened, couldn't move for police and camera wagons for days

Who is Lord Kitchiner.

I remember seeing some recruitment posters for the First World War featuring a Lord Kitchener, who looked a bit like the infamous Lord Lucan.

Funny that some Welsh welcome the return of this competition. Were you not complaining about playing reserve players, too many games etc

profitius wrote:Funny that some Welsh welcome the return of this competition. Were you not complaining about playing reserve players, too many games etc

Presumably that was the A-Team reinstation, which could affect League games further, it will be disastrous for Welsh regions as they will be missing their best players for 3 different Welsh rugby sides (Senior XV, U20s and A team).

These LV Cup dates will be played on the fallow weekends as they were previous seasons.

I think this is the competition that might be given the axe - along with the B&I Cup - so that a proper development competition can be created involving teams from Wales, Ireland, Scotland and England. It is rumoured that the Premiership would be open to this.

The idea would be for it to be played during test weekends, and not involve players within national squads. This is part of Martin Anayi's plans to tackle the problem of low-quality PRO12 teams playing league matches during international windows. With a a proposed reduction in the number of games to be played during the season in a conference/pool structure, and with more 'event' weekends to boost crowds to compensate for less games, the revised WISE competition would take over from the league in November, February and March.

We don't have the resources for an LV cup, we'll just be making up the numbers again. Waste of time for us.

I think it is a positive. It will give the lads coming through an opportunity to play together in a competition. At the Dragons, if the BIC is to be competed by prem select sides, I hope we have the same nucleus of players for both competitions. Gives them 6 fixtures instead of the 3 they had last year. Looking forward to seeing a number of youngsters Keddie, Bale, Gasson, Garrett, Davies coming through.

mikey_dragon wrote:We don't have the resources for an LV cup, we'll just be making up the numbers again. Waste of time for us.

"Us" being the NGD?

Being the Welsh regions. Since they rebranded the Anglo-Welsh cup and moved it to international weekends we've just been making up the numbers. Putting out young players and fringe players in an already weak squad (as all the regions have weaker squads than their counterparts) is not good for development.

Take a look at the results here: http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/lv_cup.php#WmGCsjZoE88WyHal.97 - that's not good for us, like at all.

mikey_dragon wrote:Being the Welsh regions. Since they rebranded the Anglo-Welsh cup and moved it to international weekends we've just been making up the numbers. Putting out young players and fringe players in an already weak squad (as all the regions have weaker squads than their counterparts) is not good for development.

Take a look at the results here: http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/lv_cup.php#WmGCsjZoE88WyHal.97 - that's not good for us, like at all.

I'm never sure of the yardstick for measuring 'development'. Some align it with winning, others don't.

I can see merits in both sides of that argument.

I too, but personally speaking sending weak teams with promising youngsters to get thrashed by stronger teams isn't good. If we had better depth then yes, this competition would be very good for developing fringe players and U20s - but we've never had that and I'm convinced that we still don't.

mikey_dragon wrote:I too, but personally speaking sending weak teams with promising youngsters to get thrashed by stronger teams isn't good. If we had better depth then yes, this competition would be very good for developing fringe players and U20s - but we've never had that and I'm convinced that we still don't.

Counter that with Cardiff winning in Newcastle and Wasps in that link you sent. Those games will have benefitted the youngsters who played.

Is there a reward for winning the LV? European Cup place?

propdavid_london wrote:Is there a reward for winning the LV? European Cup place?

There certainly was for English clubs.

It's a chance for up and coming young Welsh players to audition for a well paid contract in the English Premiership.

PhilBB wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Is there a reward for winning the LV? European Cup place?

There certainly was for English clubs.

The Premiership gave one of their six slots to the (english) winner of LV Cup under the old H Cup format.

If/when the Cup is broadened to a British/Irish development comp - supposedly from 2018 season - this might make it more competitive and/or worthwhile participating in. Particularly if it was instead of league matches being played during the test windows.

Pot Hale wrote:
If/when the Cup is broadened to a British/Irish development comp - supposedly from 2018 season -

Link?

So, if there is no English winner of the LV cup then the European spot reverts to the 6th placed league side?

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I too, but personally speaking sending weak teams with promising youngsters to get thrashed by stronger teams isn't good. If we had better depth then yes, this competition would be very good for developing fringe players and U20s - but we've never had that and I'm convinced that we still don't.

Counter that with Cardiff winning in Newcastle and Wasps in that link you sent. Those games will have benefitted the youngsters who played.

Counter that with getting demolished at home by Leicester... It also looks like Saracens sent what isn't far off a third string team down and it dispatched an Ospreys team largely made up of 2nd choice players. So yeah I guess that benefitted Sarries. Northampton were also putting out a competitive team. If we look back at your home game versus Tigers, who do you think from the starting team will have benefitted? Ellis Jenkins maybe, but the rest of the team are poor and is an example of the poor depth I've alluded to. We don't have the squads necessary to compete so this competition is a waste of time. When we do, like some of the top English clubs, then yes this LV cup will be very useful.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Counter that with getting demolished at home by Leicester... It also looks like Saracens sent what isn't far off a third string team down and it dispatched an Ospreys team largely made up of 2nd choice players. So yeah I guess that benefitted Sarries. Northampton were also putting out a competitive team. If we look back at your home game versus Tigers, who do you think from the starting team will have benefitted? Ellis Jenkins maybe, but the rest of the team are poor and is an example of the poor depth I've alluded to. We don't have the squads necessary to compete so this competition is a waste of time. When we do, like some of the top English clubs, then yes this LV cup will be very useful.

I take your Leicester point, true.

I'd like to think that the depth this season will be better than that in the season you've shown.

propdavid_london wrote:So, if there is no English winner of the LV cup then the European spot reverts to the 6th placed league side?

The allocation was under the old format of the H Cup. It no longer applies in the Premiership allocation of automatic places.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
If/when the Cup is broadened to a British/Irish development comp - supposedly from 2018 season -

Link?

Yes.  I posted one some months ago in a similar topic in which you posted if that helps.   It's from a Martin Anayi interview when he was doing the rounds of the various Pro 12 clubs.

Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?
Post by Pot Hale on Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:53 am


Martin Anayi has continued the rounds of media interviews he's been giving.  

In another recent one in irish newspaper, he's quoted as referring to the conference/pool system being very suited to a cross-border competition.   He's also quoted as saying he's in favour of introducing a top 6 style play-off to league.  And that his proposal to club CEOs is that matches should continue during international windows but maybe as part of a cup involving Irish and British teams from both leagues so a development pathway continues for lower profile players.  However, PRO12 matches would be more often filled with test players and he'd like to introduce an extra derby round of matches once they move to the conference/pool model.  Change unlikely to happen before 2017-18 season.  

The poor reffing image and empty stadia are also referred to and that whilst Sky are content with the viewing figures for a weekend of matches, empty seats and poor reffing displays are not helping.  

All interesting food for thought and seems to indicate that they're determined to change things up.

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/lights-camera-action-34654329.html



And here's another link from an Irish Times article around the same period:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-improving-pro12-product-a-matter-of-urgency-1.2598028

Yes, cheers. As noted elsewhere, just guesswork from Fanning.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Counter that with getting demolished at home by Leicester... It also looks like Saracens sent what isn't far off a third string team down and it dispatched an Ospreys team largely made up of 2nd choice players. So yeah I guess that benefitted Sarries. Northampton were also putting out a competitive team. If we look back at your home game versus Tigers, who do you think from the starting team will have benefitted? Ellis Jenkins maybe, but the rest of the team are poor and is an example of the poor depth I've alluded to. We don't have the squads necessary to compete so this competition is a waste of time. When we do, like some of the top English clubs, then yes this LV cup will be very useful.

I take your Leicester point, true.

I'd like to think that the depth this season will be better than that in the season you've shown.

I'd like to think that too. Blues depth will be slightly better, but I'm not sure about the other three Welsh teams.

PhilBB wrote:Yes, cheers. As noted elsewhere, just guesswork from Fanning.

Which bit is guesswork?

You'll find that similar articles were written by a number of other journalists on the topic, including one that followed up the feedback that Anayi received from the club CEO's on his various proposals, and what they were looking for on development games and the test windows.

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Yes, cheers. As noted elsewhere, just guesswork from Fanning.

Which bit is guesswork?  

You'll find that similar articles were written by a number of other journalists on the topic, including one that followed up the feedback that Anayi received from the club CEO's on his various proposals, and what they were looking for on development games and the test windows.

The guesswork = the bit that says 'maybe' and no direct quotes from anybody involved.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Yes, cheers. As noted elsewhere, just guesswork from Fanning.

Which bit is guesswork?  

You'll find that similar articles were written by a number of other journalists on the topic, including one that followed up the feedback that Anayi received from the club CEO's on his various proposals, and what they were looking for on development games and the test windows.

The guesswork = the bit that says 'maybe' and no direct quotes from anybody involved.

That's too vague. It's a report based on an interview with Anayi with quotes from him about the proposed changes. So which elements specifically are you saying is guesswork?

Pot Hale wrote:
That's too vague.  It's a report based on an interview with Anayi with quotes from him about the proposed changes.  So which elements specifically are you saying is guesswork?  

There is not one quote from Anayi about the English being involved in an 'in international window' competition. Hence, guesswork.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
That's too vague.  It's a report based on an interview with Anayi with quotes from him about the proposed changes.  So which elements specifically are you saying is guesswork?  

There is not one quote from Anayi about the English being involved in an 'in international window' competition. Hence, guesswork.

Correct, there isn't. So what you're focussing on is the specific bit about potential English involvement in a development competition.

The journalist doesn't say "maybe" as you stated in your previous post. The pertinent piece reads:

"Interestingly, across the water the Anglo Welsh tournament is scheduled to run in this gap again next season but our understanding is that Premier Rugby would be open to the idea of looking at a potential tie-up with the Pro12 thereafter. In any case it will be 2017/'18 before, or if, Anayi's ­proposals would see the light of day."

You are familiar with the journalistic phrases of "it is understood", "it is our understanding", "sources say", etc, etc? Sometimes these phrases are used where someone does not wish to be quoted directly, or be seen as having come from a specific organisation.

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
That's too vague.  It's a report based on an interview with Anayi with quotes from him about the proposed changes.  So which elements specifically are you saying is guesswork?  

There is not one quote from Anayi about the English being involved in an 'in international window' competition. Hence, guesswork.

Correct, there isn't.   So what you're focussing on is the specific bit about potential English involvement in a development competition.

The journalist doesn't say "maybe" as you stated in your previous post.  The pertinent piece reads:

"Interestingly, across the water the Anglo Welsh tournament is scheduled to run in this gap again next season but our understanding is that Premier Rugby would be open to the idea of looking at a potential tie-up with the Pro12 thereafter. In any case it will be 2017/'18 before, or if, Anayi's ­proposals would see the light of day."

You are familiar with the journalistic phrases of "it is understood", "it is our understanding", "sources say", etc, etc?   Sometimes these phrases are used where someone does not wish to be quoted directly, or be seen as having come from a specific organisation.

And sometimes they are used when they are completely made up.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
That's too vague.  It's a report based on an interview with Anayi with quotes from him about the proposed changes.  So which elements specifically are you saying is guesswork?  

There is not one quote from Anayi about the English being involved in an 'in international window' competition. Hence, guesswork.

Correct, there isn't.   So what you're focussing on is the specific bit about potential English involvement in a development competition.

The journalist doesn't say "maybe" as you stated in your previous post.  The pertinent piece reads:

"Interestingly, across the water the Anglo Welsh tournament is scheduled to run in this gap again next season but our understanding is that Premier Rugby would be open to the idea of looking at a potential tie-up with the Pro12 thereafter. In any case it will be 2017/'18 before, or if, Anayi's ­proposals would see the light of day."

You are familiar with the journalistic phrases of "it is understood", "it is our understanding", "sources say", etc, etc?   Sometimes these phrases are used where someone does not wish to be quoted directly, or be seen as having come from a specific organisation.

And sometimes they are used when they are completely made up.

Not in my professional experience. Why would he or other journalists need to make it up, when they could just as easily posit it as something to be considered?

Out of curiosity, is it a development you would welcome if it were to occur?

Pot Hale wrote:
Not in my professional experience.   Why would he or other journalists need to make it up, when they could just as easily posit it as something to be considered?

Out of curiosity, is it a development you would welcome if it were to occur?

No, I wouldn't welcome it.

Why would they make it up? Pass.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
Not in my professional experience.   Why would he or other journalists need to make it up, when they could just as easily posit it as something to be considered?

Out of curiosity, is it a development you would welcome if it were to occur?

No, I wouldn't welcome it.

Why would they make it up? Pass.

Precisely. It may only be something under consideration at the moment, but if there is intent from PRO 12 chiefs to:

a) Remove PRO 12 league games from International Windows but not have them lie fallow and instead
b) Have a development competition involving all PRO 12 unions/teams then
c) the AW Cup would be unsuitable as a vehicle so
d) the current B&I Cup could be discarded or upgraded to one that uses higher quality players from academies and squads.

Pot Hale wrote:

Precisely.   It may only be something under consideration at the moment, but if there is intent from PRO 12 chiefs to:

a) Remove PRO 12 league games from International Windows but not have them lie fallow and instead
b) Have a development competition involving all PRO 12 unions/teams then
c) the AW Cup would be unsuitable as a vehicle so
d) the current B&I Cup could be discarded or upgraded to one that uses higher quality players from academies and squads.

a) is good
b) is not needed
c) is not a price worth paying for b)
d) the Championship clubs may have an issue with that.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Precisely.   It may only be something under consideration at the moment, but if there is intent from PRO 12 chiefs to:

a) Remove PRO 12 league games from International Windows but not have them lie fallow and instead
b) Have a development competition involving all PRO 12 unions/teams then
c) the AW Cup would be unsuitable as a vehicle so
d) the current B&I Cup could be discarded or upgraded to one that uses higher quality players from academies and squads.

a) is good
b) is not needed - because....?
c) is not a price worth paying for b) because...?
d) the Championship clubs may have an issue with that.

Why to a, b and c?

Please expand if you can/are willing. I note that Gerry Thornley in his Irish Times article (linked above) gives his opinion that abandoning the current B&I Cup would be a bad thing for Irish amateur clubs.

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Precisely.   It may only be something under consideration at the moment, but if there is intent from PRO 12 chiefs to:

a) Remove PRO 12 league games from International Windows but not have them lie fallow and instead
b) Have a development competition involving all PRO 12 unions/teams then
c) the AW Cup would be unsuitable as a vehicle so
d) the current B&I Cup could be discarded or upgraded to one that uses higher quality players from academies and squads.

a) is good
b) is not needed - because....?
c) is not a price worth paying for b) because...?
d) the Championship clubs may have an issue with that.

Why to a, b and c?

Please expand if you can/are willing.  I note that Gerry Thornley in his Irish Times article (linked above) gives his opinion that abandoning the current B&I Cup would be a bad thing for Irish amateur clubs.

Playing the PrO'12 during the international window skews the league completely, as I've shown elsewhere.

b) is not needed as we have the AW Cup. If the Irish and the Scots want to not play during the international windows they should find their own competition to play in rather than ruining ours. Again.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Precisely.   It may only be something under consideration at the moment, but if there is intent from PRO 12 chiefs to:

a) Remove PRO 12 league games from International Windows but not have them lie fallow and instead
b) Have a development competition involving all PRO 12 unions/teams then
c) the AW Cup would be unsuitable as a vehicle so
d) the current B&I Cup could be discarded or upgraded to one that uses higher quality players from academies and squads.

a) is good
b) is not needed - because....?
c) is not a price worth paying for b) because...?
d) the Championship clubs may have an issue with that.

Why to a, b and c?

Please expand if you can/are willing.  I note that Gerry Thornley in his Irish Times article (linked above) gives his opinion that abandoning the current B&I Cup would be a bad thing for Irish amateur clubs.

Playing the PrO'12 during the international window skews the league completely, as I've shown elsewhere.

b) is not needed as we have the AW Cup. If the Irish and the Scots want to not play during the international windows they should find their own competition to play in rather than ruining ours. Again.

Sorry - I should have written b, c and d.

I don't think you can say the AW Cup is yours however, if the PRO 12 clubs are agreed on moving games out of the test Windows and everyone wants something else to happen during that time under the PRO12 banner.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Precisely.   It may only be something under consideration at the moment, but if there is intent from PRO 12 chiefs to:

a) Remove PRO 12 league games from International Windows but not have them lie fallow and instead
b) Have a development competition involving all PRO 12 unions/teams then
c) the AW Cup would be unsuitable as a vehicle so
d) the current B&I Cup could be discarded or upgraded to one that uses higher quality players from academies and squads.

a) is good
b) is not needed - because....?
c) is not a price worth paying for b) because...?
d) the Championship clubs may have an issue with that.

Why to a, b and c?

Please expand if you can/are willing.  I note that Gerry Thornley in his Irish Times article (linked above) gives his opinion that abandoning the current B&I Cup would be a bad thing for Irish amateur clubs.

Playing the PrO'12 during the international window skews the league completely, as I've shown elsewhere.

b) is not needed as we have the AW Cup. If the Irish and the Scots want to not play during the international windows they should find their own competition to play in rather than ruining ours. Again.

No you haven't to that first sentence. It was pointed out quickly that it was lacking in detail and no accurate conclusions could be made without more info.

Pot Hale wrote:

Sorry - I should have written b, c and d.

I don't think you can say the AW Cup is yours however, if the PRO 12 clubs are agreed on moving games out of the test Windows and everyone wants something else to happen during that time under the PRO12 banner.  

I don't follow. The AW Cup doesn't belong to the English and Welsh clubs, not the PrO'12.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
No you haven't to that first sentence. It was pointed out quickly that it was lacking in detail and no accurate conclusions could be made without more info.

Drivel, fair play. Drivel.