England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

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England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

A bit early, but with squads due to be announced next week thought I'd start a thread to collate all winter tours news...

Firstly it appears the Bangladesh tour will go ahead despite security concerns. I for one am glad of this, gives England a chance to acclimatise to Asian conditions against an improving Bangladesh outfit (especially as England have no planned tour matches in India)

Secondly - it appears Haseeb Hameed will be getting the nod for Bangladesh according to Nick Hoult - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2016/08/29/england-plan-to-call-up-teenage-opener-haseeb-hameed-for-banglad/

Peoples initial thoughts on that?
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by VTR on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 12:08 pm

Batty and Broad would have made a big difference I think, both could have exerted control at different times, and any spinner able to land the ball consistently would do well on that track

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by KO-KING on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 12:21 pm

I might budge on batty stance... In all honesty woakes looked better than most... Bump him up the order maybe?

Drop ballance

Our real problem is we don't have a proper spinner, why can't England produce a Taijul... Nothing special, just consistent... Our spinners spray it all over, problem may be that they're natural allrounders

Monty was Pretty Average But He was A Level Above the current crop

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 12:36 pm

Well there was a chap called Swann...

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 12:58 pm

Congrats to Bangladesh, throughly deserved win. You'll do well to see a better innings than the hundred by Tamim in the first innings

England have some real worries going into the India series - but unfortunately you can't suddenly make the spinners better, and we have to go for someone other than Ballance surely. This is the winter where James Taylor is sorely sorely missed

No problem with them rotating - they have a ridiculous schedule of cricket through to Christmas (blame the schedulers rather than management imo)
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by KO-KING on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 1:08 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Congrats to Bangladesh, throughly deserved win. You'll do well to see a better innings than the hundred by Tamim in the first innings

England have some real worries going into the India series - but unfortunately you can't suddenly make the spinners better, and we have to go for someone other than Ballance surely. This is the winter where James Taylor is sorely sorely missed

No problem with them rotating - they have a ridiculous schedule of cricket through to Christmas (blame the schedulers rather than management imo)

Only Hundred of the Series?

Watching Mominul Field reminded me of the value of Taylor further

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by king_carlos on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 1:23 pm

Congratulations to Bangladesh. They have been building for a long while and it is a deserved victory. Especially pleasing to see players such as Shakib Al Hasan getting that result as vindication for excellent performances over a long period now - close to a decade for Shakib.

For England it is a frustrating result but also indicative of our lack of spin options and batsmen who struggle when the ball turns. Rashid has taken some stick for his inconsistency in tests but he has also played all 5 of his tests against Pakistan or Bangladesh, i.e. sides who play spin very well. He is also more capable than our other options of taking wickets in batches and pressuring new batsmen, which is vital on sub continent pitches.

A change in the batting is needed and Ballance is the obvious man to go when he's this out of sorts. I can't say I've seen Hameed play but I would say that Duckett looks a like batsmen better suited to the middle order. Hameed would also add another right hander to the order, giving Ashwin one less leftie to bowl at in India wouldn't be the worst idea!

The most important issue for me with the current top order frailties is how early it exposes Root. The guy is our best batsmen and most important player. The openers need to shield their 3 from the toughest conditions so he can do the damage he's capable of. Cook and Hameed seem best suited to that role.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 1:33 pm

If anyone thinks that calling up a keeper who was dropped for not scoring enough runs at 6/7 is going to help englands top 5 on iys own then thats more an indictment of just how bad things have got than how good Buttler is.
Suggestions of KP are ridiculous. Its not even like he'd been doing well in the run up to his dropping.

In the last 3 years the only top 4 batsmen to manage a year of good form are root, cook and err ballance. Its just a pity he seems to have completely shat the bed.
I do agree something has to change (as it does every series) in the top 4 but mostly thats players fronting up and delivering rather than worrying about who the individuals are. Bring in Buttler or Habeeb...that alone wont fix it.

Spinners is the same. Im pretty neutral on any combination of the 3, they all have their limitations. But suggesting panessar is hopefuly a joke.

The confidence I have ahead of india for the batting is that the pitches may not turn and wont bounce as much.
The problem is, combined wuth the quality in Indias top 5, is that puts more load on bowlers to deliver quality to get wickets. Regardless of who is picked wickets arent likely to be easy.


Final thing again people need to stop thinking that was an easy target even when reduced to 170.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 1:36 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Congrats to Bangladesh, throughly deserved win. You'll do well to see a better innings than the hundred by Tamim in the first innings

England have some real worries going into the India series - but unfortunately you can't suddenly make the spinners better, and we have to go for someone other than Ballance surely. This is the winter where James Taylor is sorely sorely missed

No problem with them rotating - they have a ridiculous schedule of cricket through to Christmas (blame the schedulers rather than management imo)

Absolutely blame the scheduling : England should never have accepted these touring dates . Certainly they have to do some "player management" : but it can hardly be denied that resting Broad , for example , cost them dearly.

Losing Taylor was a pity ; though his record wasn't so startling as to suggest he'd have been the savior...unfortunately the selectors cannot seem to pick a new batsman who fits in quickly these days : few years back they were lucky enough to see Strauss , Bell , Pietersen Cook and Collingwood all
do well fairly early on ; but only Root has really come in and looked at home in recent years.
Hence why they are set on recycling (tried it unsuccessfully with Compton , while it has worked well with Bairstow ) Ballance is the latest such ; and I think must be heading for the discard pile.

Duckett has at least shown something here. Let us hope he - and Hameed - can show us some more over the next few weeks.

It goes without saying that Cook and Root need to have a massive series...

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 1:50 pm

Well, was away for a while and when I got back to the TV, England were all of a sudden 6 down. And soon after, 9 down as Shakib took 3 in 4 balls. And then it was all over, England losing 10-64, to lose by 107 runs. Comprehensive win for Bangladesh, after their near miss in the first test. Have to say it is a deserving win. And hopefully, the BCB would now onwards, make an effort to get the side to play more test matches. Shakib at last is getting some support in the bowling department. Mehedi has had a sensational start to his test career, and Taijul has looked the part in spinning conditions. With Tamim, and the reinvented Imrul give them a decent opening partnership, and Mominul is their best test batsman. Mahmudullah's position has to be up for discussion, Mosaddek Hossain or Nassir Hossain will have to come into the side sooner rather than later. Sabir seems a good find for the test side, has the shots, and the temperament for a fight. Hom the passenger should be send packing, and again, Nassir or Mosaddek should be coming in. Or in seaming conditions, there could be a seamer coming in. Rabbi didn't look that option....... Mustafizur should be back and take up the led seamer position, but they ned a good support act for him......

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 2:10 pm

And what to say of England. The top order collapse arrived as expected, but it was after a hundred run opening partnership. And A player other than Cook or Root even posted a half century. But the lower middle order, and the lower order that dug them out of many seemingly bottomless pits, chose to go on strike today! And the result, a first ever loss to Bangladesh. Another low in Alastair Cook's captaincy book.......
What can they do? Seems even people have run out of options as I mentioned earlier, no new names are being thrown up....... Ballance, who at one point was projected as the more than adequate replacement to the discarded Kevin Pietersen, has been an out and out disaster and most certainly have to go. Going back to Ian Bell is just nonsensical, the guy had 1 good series in 4 years, 4 years of prolonged rough patch, and now you want him back? And in India that too? He was a walking wicket most of the times here. Did have one good innings lasttime, and that's about it!
Think they have to move Root down to 4. He's pretty much doing alright at 3, but think the middle order would need his reassuring presence at 4. Would separate Cook and Root a bit, and that isn't a bad thing, if one goes early, the other would come in after a bit of cover and rebuild. But if they go one after another, then all that can e done is to hope the lower order all-rounders would somehow get them out of the pit. Haseeb Hameed is the one option they have. Not sure he's the answer. But he has to come in and be tested. Buttler is a special talent, but I don't see him as a top 3 material....... If Buttler has to play, then it has to be as an extra batsman, meaning they will have to go in with 5 and not 6 proper bowling options. Considering the likes of Ansari are picked in a parttime role with bat and ball, that wouldn't be a bad call.
Perhaps a lineup of
Cook
Hameed
Duckett
Root
Bairstow (He has to bat 5)
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Rashid
Batty
Broad
And if Buttler is to come in, then he comes in for Batty, and bats 6, with the others moving down a position.......

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by king_carlos on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 2:15 pm

Buttler averages 32 in first class cricket. He isn't the answer to our top order struggling.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 2:21 pm

king_carlos wrote:Buttler averages 32 in first class cricket. He isn't the answer to our top order struggling.

Hi Carlos, good to see you back. Genuine question - what is your best answer for now?

I know you'll already have an XI in mind for the first India Test, so let's have that as well. Very Happy

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 2:44 pm

I don't think we should have dropped Bell, he wasn't playing brilliantly but he still offered more than the other options.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by king_carlos on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 2:58 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Buttler averages 32 in first class cricket. He isn't the answer to our top order struggling.

Hi Carlos, good to see you back. Genuine question - what is your best answer for now?

I know you'll already have an XI in mind for the first India Test, so let's have that as well. Very Happy

Hi Guildford. Yep it's good to have a bit more time on my hands for cricket after being snowed under with work etc. Very Happy

As I said above the best thing I think we can do for now is give Root, our best batsmen and player, the chance to do damage. Root's best position is at 3 but our current top order failures mean he is getting no chance to perform the role he should be there.

As such I'd go with Hameed alongside Cook. As admitted I haven't seen him play but you don't score tough runs as consistently as he did last season without excellent technique and temperament, which are the two things an opening batsmen needs most in all conditions. Duckett looks a very good player but I also think he's better suited to the middle order in test cricket.

1.Cook (c)
2.Hameed
3.Root
4.Duckett
5.Ali
6.Stokes
7.Bairstow (wk)
8.Woakes
9.Rashid
10.Batty
11.Broad

We need our spinners to be able to offer control when batsmen are in as well as the ability to take wickets in clusters when batsmen are new to the crease. Sadly we don't have a spinner who will do both of these against the Indian batsmen. As such the line-up is going to look unbalanced but I think that there is the best we can get.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 3:00 pm

Alfie...the last batsman to come in and make a sustained early impact was Ballance.
Its his comeback after being harshly discarded thats been the issue.

Loys of hindsight on Bell. Of course if he had been retained we would no doubt be hearing about how Vince and all thebothet golden boys are so much better, and he would be due for retirement too.
But yes he did get over critisized through his career. Never quite a great but got more abuse than he warrented....even more so in hindsight.

I really think theres more to this continued failure in the top order (its crept in over 4 years...when Bell and KP were still both a thing) than individual selections.
Its getting worse the more changes that are made.




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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 3:14 pm

king_carlos wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Buttler averages 32 in first class cricket. He isn't the answer to our top order struggling.

Hi Carlos, good to see you back. Genuine question - what is your best answer for now?

I know you'll already have an XI in mind for the first India Test, so let's have that as well. Very Happy

Hi Guildford. Yep it's good to have a bit more time on my hands for cricket after being snowed under with work etc.  Very Happy

As I said above the best thing I think we can do for now is give Root, our best batsmen and player, the chance to do damage. Root's best position is at 3 but our current top order failures mean he is getting no chance to perform the role he should be there.

As such I'd go with Hameed alongside Cook. As admitted I haven't seen him play but you don't score tough runs as consistently as he did last season without excellent technique and temperament, which are the two things an opening batsmen needs most in all conditions. Duckett looks a very good player but I also think he's better suited to the middle order in test cricket.

1.Cook (c)
2.Hameed
3.Root
4.Duckett
5.Ali
6.Stokes
7.Bairstow (wk)
8.Woakes
9.Rashid
10.Batty
11.Broad

We need our spinners to be able to offer control when batsmen are in as well as the ability to take wickets in clusters when batsmen are new to the crease. Sadly we don't have a spinner who will do both of these against the Indian batsmen. As such the line-up is going to look unbalanced but I think that there is the best we can get.

I'd agree with this XI and will be very shocked if they don't go with it in Rajkot

Looking at how the ball has reversed here - Wood being injured is also a big loss. Feel his raw pace and action would've been good for reverse and another viable option in these conditions

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 3:16 pm

Thanks, Carlos.

No great disagreement with any of that although, after today's knock, I wonder if Duckett might be retained as Cook's opening with Hameed coming in at 3 and Root moving down to 4. I would have liked Hameed to have made his Test debut in this two match series, feel we missed (another) trick there.

I also continue to harbour doubts about Rashid although accept that comment could be made about any of the four spinners on tour.


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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 3:17 pm

Also keep an eye on the Lions who I believe are touring UAE whilst the India series is ongoing

If someone hits form there they could be drafted in
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by king_carlos on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 3:22 pm

Olly - Completely agree on Mark Wood. Given how much he reminded so many of Simon Jones when he burst onto the scene it is such a shame that his career currently seems to heading the same way.

Hopefully he can move past his ankle issues but when a pace bowler has such a chronic injury it can rarely be fixed without massively reducing their work load. Something that is difficult to do in test cricket.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by KP_fan on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 3:25 pm

msp83 wrote:Well, was away for a while and when I got back to the TV, England were all of a sudden 6 down. And soon after, 9 down as Shakib took 3 in 4 balls. And then it was all over, England losing 10-64, to lose by 107 runs. Comprehensive win for Bangladesh, after their near miss in the first test. Have to say it is a deserving win. And hopefully, the BCB would now onwards, make an effort to get the side to play more test matches. 
This is very heartening for BD cricket.....after 15 years of mediocrity in the last year or so their cricket has started to show move up on the curve of growth.....

Like India first and then Lanka they  have been getting successes at home...largely in ODIs in last 2 years ...in helpful flat batting or spin friendly conditions....and now two good tests vs a top side

Winning even if at home---> gives confidence, builds support base with fans , feeling of "belonging there".....and develops ambition...after a a while to want to win overseas also.......that's the path their sub-continental big brothers India and Lanka have traversed.
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by king_carlos on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 3:33 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Thanks, Carlos.

No great disagreement with any of that although, after today's knock, I wonder if Duckett might be retained as Cook's opening with Hameed coming in at 3 and Root moving down to 4. I would have liked Hameed to have made his Test debut in this two match series, feel we missed (another) trick there.

I also continue to harbour doubts about Rashid although accept that comment could be made about any of the four spinners on tour.


I hope Root is kept at 3 but could understand the coaches trying to shield him more, guildford.

I by no means think Rashid is a complete bowler but I also think he's the only spinner we have who could bowl India out in a 4th innings. His debut against Pakistan in Abu Dhabi demonstrated that ability later in a game. He can really turn a ball and has variation. Although he does lack control.

Moeen can give it more of rip than Batty or Zaf but lacks variation and control.

Batty is a wiley old fox but has never turned the ball enough to consistently threaten the best.

Zaf is similar to Batty in that regard. He has good control, gets some sharp bounce and offers variety as a left-arm orthodox spinner. He can't give the ball the rip needed to make himself unplayable on a turning surface though.

The side are currently missing Jimmy Anderson hugely. His control and experience with new and old ball has held our bowling unit together for a long time now.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by KO-KING on Sun 30 Oct 2016, 6:30 pm

Watching the verdict, Trott only go with 2 spinners dropping rashid

BTW Shakib wicket was a no ball by rashid... 3rd umpires need to judge the no balls

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 1:27 am

Gooseberry wrote:Alfie...the last batsman to come in and make a sustained early impact was Ballance.
Its his comeback after being harshly discarded thats been the issue.

Loys of hindsight on Bell. Of course if he had been retained we would no doubt be hearing about how Vince and all thebothet golden boys are so much better, and he would be due for retirement too.
But yes he did get over critisized through his career. Never quite a great but got more abuse than he warrented....even more so in hindsight.

I really think theres more to this continued failure in the top order (its crept in over 4 years...when Bell and KP were still both a thing) than individual selections.
Its getting worse the more changes that are made.




Yes fair point re Ballance : he did have a deal of early success - a brilliant home season v Sri Lanka and India , and a couple of good matches in West Indies...but then it all stopped rather suddenly. Strange in a way ; but I think the bowlers around the world (NZ and Australian quicks initially) had "worked him out ".
Given his initial efforts I was not opposed to giving him another try ; but I think it came a little too soon , and has merely resulted in a string of failures and consequent loss of confidence - which may well end up finishing his international career altogether. Easy to be wise after the event , but I do think he'd have been better left to work on his game a little longer ; probably would have been had it not been for the unfortunate unexpected loss of Taylor.
As for Bell I think he was always a convenient whipping boy for critics when the team failed. As you say , not a superstar but a better player than often acknowledged ...for some unexplained reason a lot of people just didn't seem to like him. Perhaps it was the ginger hair...

In any case I'm not seriously calling for a Bell recall...nor do I have a magic solution. I think (reading above) most on here are just saying Hameed for Ballance , with just the batting order to be haggled over ; and it would be astonishing if anything else were done. How that will work we shall just have to wait and see. But if things don't improve then the next selection changes (2017 home summer) will need to get it right ...

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 11:05 am

The retirement of James Taylor I think ruined the long term plan of the team, he hadn't nailed down his spot by any means but his form and ability far outstripped the options we have now. I just get the impression the selectors would have stuck by him a bit more than the likes of Vince who had a major technical issue, Taylors biggest problem was trying to do too much too early in his innings.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by KO-KING on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 12:28 pm

am really torn on whether Rashid should be in.

The pitch in chittagong was like most Indian pitches, slow low turners...he didn't do great in them, the Mirpur one was a leg spinners paradise, Turn, zip and Bounce...he didn't do anything again, sure he took 4 tailenders and Shakib (with a No Ball)..but he wasn't impressive.

But

He can get through indian defences with his googlies and has better chance of removing the likes of Kholi, he can also clean up the tail well.

And

He can Bat

But I like the look of Ansari

and Batty offers most control

Currently, I might go with this

1.Cook (c)
2.Hameed
3.Root
4.Duckett
5.Bairstow (wk) - want another right hander in Top 6...
6. Moeen
7. Stokes
8. Woakes - Mostly for his batting
9. Ansari - Maybe Rashid...He looks like he's got severe confidence issues
10. Broad
11. Batty

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Maine man on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 1:41 pm

The bit that annoyed me was cook saying that England's inexperience was their downfall. Bangladesh had a teenager ripping the ar$e out of England's batting line up and he had no international experience. Simple fact is that England are not that good a team in non English conditions.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 3:10 pm

I know Guildford and people who have seen closely at Surrey have a thing about Ansari. But can't honestly see why. Seems quite mediocre with the ball to me to be a regular test spinner. And even his supporters aren't calling for him to be batted in the top 6 though he's an opener in county cricket?
Don't think Indian batsmen would be too concerned about Ansari. Even the likes of Mark Craig or Ish Sodhi didn't trouble them much. And the current generation of Indian batsmen are not half as good as the ones from the previous generation when it comes to playing spin. Even someone like Moeen can really trouble them in fact. But I don't see Ansari doing that. He'll be milked to their heart's contentment all day...... And if he bowls anything like the he went about in the first innings of the last test, he will not be bowling much thereafter at this level. Parttime bowler, parttime batsman. Can't really be the option. Unless he can come in at 4 or 5 perhaps, or open the innings like he does in county cricket. We don't know whether Hameed is going to be the done deal, at least as of now. So if they are keen on Ansari and whe he can bring to the table with the ball, then they should get him to open perhaps? The fact that nobody has really mentioned the option suggests that he really isn't international batting material. And from what was on display in the test, he most certainly isn't a regular bowling material at the test level.
Rashid any day over Ansari....... But not sure Rashid is developing the control to be a sustained threat at this level. But the likes of Tahir and Harmer did have some success against India when South Africa came calling last time, just that their batting lineup collectively combusted at the first site of spin, which was as early as the first over itself more often than not!

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by KO-KING on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 3:59 pm

Maine man wrote:The bit that annoyed me was cook saying that England's inexperience was their downfall. Bangladesh had a teenager ripping the ar$e out of England's batting line up and he had no international experience. Simple fact is that England are not that good a team in non English conditions.

Yh that was a poor comment and fact is they didn't play in 15 months!! And arguably with no match practice and no mustafizur, Shahid, taskin and Al amin they played a weakened bangladesh team...

Rashid and moeen seem to have mental issues. Ones got no confidence and another seems to fall asleep when bowling half the times

India won't gift wickets like bangladesh and kholi will replicate what tamim did

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 5:30 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The retirement of James Taylor I think ruined the long term plan of the team, he hadn't nailed down his spot by any means but his form and ability far outstripped the options we have now. I just get the impression the selectors would have stuck by him a bit more than the likes of Vince who had a major technical issue, Taylors biggest problem was trying to do too much too early in his innings.

Totally agree with this 100%

They got to the point where they saw him and Root as the future of the middle order for all conditions. When you have to suddenly replan because of such an unexpected thing as Taylor's heart condition you get muddled selections and random punts
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by JDizzle on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 6:39 pm

Not sure what was wrong with the inexperienced comment to be honest. How many of the England team have played Tests in India/Bang/SL (the conditions in UAE were a lot more benign than these pitches IMO). Cook and Broad... Root played one test in India. Just because you are older doesn't make you more experienced.

It's not like England haven't been trying batsman, both to open and to plug the gaps in the middle order. It just appears that there is a dearth of batsman about at the moment. And as mentioned, when you are losing batsmen for reasons you cannot control with gaps already in the line up... You are going to be stretched.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 6:51 pm

The inexperience comment doesn't quite cut it because it is Bangladesh they've been playing. They have not played this format of the game for more than a year. Haven't won anything against England or any other top side in this format. Their 19 year young spinner finished with 19 wickets from his first couple of games at this level. In the Bangladesh lineup, not even Shakib Al Hasan, their most accomplished player, who can walk into any test side at present, has not played 50 test matches. Besides, a lot of the issues England have faced in this tour, have troubled them even at home. The top order collapse have been a feature of their game for some time now. They haven't had a quality spinner since Graeme Swann retired. Cook has never been a spinner's captain. So to flag the lack of experience as the primary reason, well it just doesn't cut it.......

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 8:08 pm

msp83 wrote:I know Guildford and people who have seen closely at Surrey have a thing about Ansari. But can't honestly see why. Seems quite mediocre with the ball to me to be a regular test spinner. And even his supporters aren't calling for him to be batted in the top 6 though he's an opener in county cricket?
Don't think Indian batsmen would be too concerned about Ansari. Even the likes of Mark Craig or Ish Sodhi didn't trouble them much. And the current generation of Indian batsmen are not half as good as the ones from the previous generation when it comes to playing spin. Even someone like Moeen can really trouble them in fact. But I don't see Ansari doing that. He'll be milked to their heart's contentment all day...... And if he bowls anything like the he went about in the first innings of the last test, he will not be bowling much thereafter at this level. Parttime bowler, parttime batsman. Can't really be the option. Unless he can come in at 4 or 5 perhaps, or open the innings like he does in county cricket. We don't know whether Hameed is going to be the done deal, at least as of now. So if they are keen on Ansari and whe he can bring to the table with the ball, then they should get him to open perhaps? The fact that nobody has really mentioned the option suggests that he really isn't international batting material. And from what was on display in the test, he most certainly isn't a regular bowling material at the test level.
Rashid any day over Ansari....... But not sure Rashid is developing the control to be a sustained threat at this level. But the likes of Tahir and Harmer did have some success against India when South Africa came calling last time, just that their batting lineup collectively combusted at the first site of spin, which was as early as the first over itself more often than not!

Hi msp - feel you're too quick off the blocks to write off Ansari. On Sunday morning five chances were missed off his bowling, one a sitter and the rest difficult to very difficult. As he had a couple of wickets from the previous evening, with a bit of luck (rather than none at all) he could have picked up a fourfer or even fivefer on debut which would have had the English press purring. Imo, that would have been wrong and overly flattering but I make the point about not rushing to judgement on the basis of fine margins.

He didn't do brilliantly (regardless of the misses) but he's a thinking cricketer who doesn't get ruffled easily. I'm not going to die in a ditch fighting for him to have a definite place for the first India Test but I still believe he should be in the mix. As discussed, there aren't that many other options. Interesting that you voice concern about Rashid's control - that's been a major worry of mine during the time you've been a loyal supporter of England's leggie.

You queried his batting. Ansari opened the batting regularly for Surrey in 2015 (and has done so at other times as well) but has more frequently been at number 4 this year with him concentrating on his bowling and it being increasingly accepted that going in at 1 or 2 isn't really suitable for front line bowler (which Ansari certainly is at Surrey). As mentioned a few days ago here, his typical approach is slow and patient but he'll biff if needed for the team. It is hard to see where he would ideally bat in this England line up.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 8:29 pm

Guildford,
So do you see Ansari batting in the top 6 as a possible option for England? Do you think he has the quality to do that?
Yes, one test isn't enough to judge a bowler's ability. But his overall record even in domestic is not great. He just didn't look half as good as say, someone like Mitchell Santner. Or even say Mark Craig. He didn't seem capable of producing the spinner's magic ball. Didn't come across as all that accurate either. Very run of the mill....... Can be a backup to Ali or Rashid, but that's only if his batting is of the required quality. Can't be a bowler first, batsman later type of player, because his bowling just doesn't seem to be up to it.
When we mention Rashid's control, it should be please not I did mention the likes of Tahir. He was rather effective in India, but there wasn't any runs to play with for him. Rashid is certainly not England's answer to Shane Warne, and wouldn't have Warne's or Anil Kumble's control ever. That just isn't going to happen with him. He's more like Imran Tahir. Can bowl wickettaking balls particularly in spinning conditions. At best he can be like Amit Mishra. And that's the best possible scenario for England. And that's why they should keep investing in him.
And as for the 3rd spinner, I would rather have Batty than Ansari......

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Mon 31 Oct 2016, 8:35 pm

And as for Rashid, I also think Cook not being a spinner's captain is affecting him. Didn't show a great deal of confidence in him and the fields were also rather ordinary....... On a spinning track, to take a few wickets at a go, think he still is the best possible option for this England side.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 8:46 am

Msp - as I touched on in earlier posts with MfC, it's difficult to know where to bat Ansari in the current England set up if he plays. His main strengths with the willow are that he's adaptable and can certainly look to bat time. If he did feature in the top 4, he wouldn't be thrown by that but I have to say he hasn't earned that right and any opportunity there would really be due to the failings of others. At a pinch, Ansari could fill in as an opening partner for Cook but we would need to be prepared for a slow start even on a good day - it's also far from ideal to have one of your front line bowlers (which, despite your reservations, Ansari would be) opening the batting. Moeen, Stokes and Bairstow appear to have numbers 5, 6 and 7 tied down for now which really leaves Ansari somewhere between 8 and 10 as on debut.

As for Rashid - not even someone as unreasonable as me expects him to be ''England's answer to Shane Warne''. I do thought expect him to be of Test match standard. I'm not convinced he is although accept that Ansari and others haven't shown they fit the bill either.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 8:56 am

As Surrey followers will know I'm Zaf's biggest fan, but not sure he did enough in that last test to justify being picked ahead of Rashid/Batty for the 1st India test. Accepting those two aren't entrenched, so he is likely to play a part at some point however
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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 9:10 am

Having score 13 and 0 so far in tests and 1 run in the warm up Id say Ansairi is an ideal candidate to slot straight in the top 4 in England.

As a bowler though after getting slaughtered in the first inninmsg he was the pick of the spinner for England. As pointeed out he could easily have had a lot more wickets to his name, whereas "my man" Rashid was perhaps lucky to get as many as he did.
As has been repeated many times, and by Cook himself, England dont have world class spinenrs to pick from. Its more about gettinga combination in who can offer different challenges to specific batsmen and give felxibility where the situation requires it. On that Basis Batty has a case as much as the Rashid and Ansari do. The relatively safe spot is Ali, who actually might convince people hes a viable top 5 batter at test level (albeit with one score over 25 from 6 innings on tour so far)

Theres a non article on cricinfo slow which smacks of slow news day discussing the possibility of calling up Leach. It boils down to England sticking by the guys they have selected (you mean they dont expect the 5th choice spinner to be a world beater ????) beacsue they are the ones who are selected and actually on tour. If Anderson gets ruled out they can call up injury cover and could chose a spinner if things are still going badly, but havent said they would. Startling revelation there Rolling Eyes

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by alfie on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 10:28 am

Like Goose , I was amused at the cricinfo suggestion re calling up another spinner if Anderson (not yet in the tour party) were completely ruled out. If four spinners aren't enough...and after the loss in Bangladesh I'd imagine they'd be hoping Anderson (who from accounts elsewhere is doing plenty of bowling in the nets ) can play some part in the challenging series ahead so doubt they'll be itching to decide against him in a hurry. Unless they've already given up the whole India trip as a bad job...
I'd have thought if any reinforcements were required it would be a batting alternative . Not wishing to be malicious , but if Ballance were to quietly sprain an ankle or something it might be a blessing for all.
Main problem being who to call in : Morgan ? Bell ? Vince ? Don't all cheer at once Smile

Truth is this is what England have at present and they have to make the best of it. If that means they get carved up too bad - these days that seems to be happening more and more to everyone : Australia , England and SA cannot handle Asian conditions - and India are easy-beats as soon as they venture out if their own back yard. It was always the case that different pitches made home/away Tests a vastly different proposition ; but these days with all major Test nations reasonably close in standard (there really hasn't been a clear stand out top team for several years no matter what ratings might sometimes suggest)...and with home teams doing tourists no favors either with pitch preparation or provision of lead up games , the odds on home victories have become shorter than ever. (For that reason I
think Pakistan deserve immense praise for drawing the recent series in England. If they could do likewise in Australia - a tough task ! I think they'd fairly claim to be the best around , whatever the rating points say.)
But I digress : have already suggested England must try Hameed for Ballance first - we can argue over the batting order but the first eight are then obvious and what remains is to add three more bowlers to Moeen Stokes and Woakes. Broad is automatic and the last two are either a fourth seamer (Ball or the much criticized Finn) plus one - or two more spinners. If ( as it probably will be ) the latter permutation I would expect Batty to play and the final choice of a spinner to turn the other way being one between Rashid's potential as a breakthrough bowler or Ansari's perhaps greater steadiness - which I do realize wasn't shown too much the other day.
I would be inclined to go for Ansari on the grounds that he came back from a hammering in the first innings to perform much better in the second - he was definitely unlucky not to take several more wickets . Yes Rashid often looks dangerous (in between boundaries ) but the fact remains that to date most of his Test victims have been tailenders. If you could guarantee Cook would win the toss and England compile 500 , I'd have Rashid like a shot - but since I can't I think they'd be better advised to trust three seam bowlers with Batty and hopefully Ansari bowling fairly frugal spells and Moeen allowed to leak a few runs while doing what he so often does and picking up vital wickets.
Of course I'd look at the pitch first...

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 10:46 am

Alfie - along with your reservations, I'm totally with you on that post. thumbsup (nb: an injured thumb going up!).

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 12:54 pm

Ansari is not likely to keep the Indian batsmen quiet for very long. Rashid is not likely to do that either, in fact keeping the batsman quiet is not quite his thing, but he's far more likely to get through some of them....... Who is a better bat between the 2 of them? Rashid's overall FC record is better, and he has made runs at the highest level, both in tests as well as in ODIs....... Ansari bats in the top 4 for his county.......

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 1:31 pm

Just to add that Batty wasn't chosen for the last Test but now appears ahead of both Rashid and Ansari in the spin pecking order.

I tend to agree with that placement although it's not the way I would have gone about making a judgement.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 3:09 pm

Batty does seem to have a greater chance of keeping the runs down. But he doesn't seem to turn the ball much. But perhaps can do a Jeetan Patel kind of role for England.......

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 5:16 pm

msp83 wrote:Batty does seem to have a greater chance of keeping the runs down. But he doesn't seem to turn the ball much. But perhaps can do a Jeetan Patel kind of role for England.......

Another concerning aspect is that Jeetan Patel was head and shoulders above England's spinners in our domestic county game last season but he had a miserable time recently when recalled by New Zealand for their Tests in India.

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by msp83 on Tue 01 Nov 2016, 6:18 pm

He did have his moments, Guildford. And batsmen like Rahane acknowledged that it wasn't easy dealing with him. But even then, on spinning tracks, he couldn't create a great deal of impact though he did have a few good spells. And by the end of the series, the batsmen eventually got on top of him.......

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

Post by KO-KING on Wed 02 Nov 2016, 8:21 pm

Off Topic - But Does anyone know if BPL will be Shown on TV...I want to see Mills play with Taskin

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Re: England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

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