Dylan Hartley rehabilitation setback

First topic message reminder :

Red-carded tonight for a swinging arm tackle against Leinster.

Saints were behind on the scoreboard but on the attack when Hartley came off the bench. Two scrum penalties later, Leinster were on the Saints goal line and duly scored. a try. Not long afterwards, Hartley was sent off, and Saints promptly crumbled. Not really an effective contribution.

It's the sort of thing Hartley has done before but seemed to have left behind under Jones. Poetically, both Lancaster and Jones were at the ground to bear witness.

This red happened in a club match but it has international implications. Jones might stand by his man, or he might take it as a cue to start looking elsewhere for captaincy options. The 6N match against Ireland could be a crucial encounter, and the referee will be Jerome Garces, who just sent Hartley off the field.

If Hartley doesn't lead England during the 6N, then his Lions chances will take a hit.

It wasn't a bite either just a hard suck.........

Scottrf wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:He squared up to him and shoved his head in his face. Stupid maybe but hardly crime of the century for a front row.

Which is a headbutt!

In your simplistic world maybe.

Is a hand off a punch?

Sorry for being simplistic rather than pedantic and no as a punch requires a fist

Allty wrote:It wasn't a bite either just a hard suck.........

You'll always get clients who aren't happy, just put it behind you.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youre being a little absurd.

He's no saint obviously, hes got a bit of bite.....hes a hooker.

Im not concerned he'll get into trouble when he plays for England, id feel the same with the Lions.

Some posters on here go on like Rugby is tiddlewinks, its a brutal, physical sport.

Theres a line between brutal and thuggish he crosses the line repeatedly and no other hooker in the modern game has a similar record so dont say its anything to do with his position as guys like Best and George are polar opposites to him

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youre being a little absurd.

He's no saint obviously, hes got a bit of bite.....hes a hooker.

Im not concerned he'll get into trouble when he plays for England, id feel the same with the Lions.

Some posters on here go on like Rugby is tiddlewinks, its a brutal, physical sport.

Well you should be because he missed the last world cup and the last Lions tour because of discipline issues. Is that really what you want from an England captain? He looks set to miss part of this years six nations too. Would you be shocked if he missed out on the next Lions tour too?

Stop pretending his discipline doesnt have an impact on him as an international.

Then you have Moore (x2), BdP, Mealamu etc etc.

I like a hooker to be abrasive, you obviously dont, no issues. Hartley rarely crosses the line when playing Int rugby, thats good enough for me. If i was a Saints fan he'd annoy me, but I'm not. I'm not really sure of the problem if you dont follow Saints.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Then you have Moore (x2), BdP, Mealamu etc etc.

I like a hooker to be abrasive, you obviously dont, no issues. Hartley rarely crosses the line when playing Int rugby, thats good enough for me. If i was a Saints fan he'd annoy me, but I'm not. I'm not really sure of the problem if you dont follow Saints.

Eh surely the problem is he misses lots of international matches because of ill discipline? Where was your beloved Hartley when England were getting hammered out of their own world cup?

Probably on the couch having a pizza.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youre being a little absurd.

He's no saint obviously, hes got a bit of bite.....hes a hooker.

Im not concerned he'll get into trouble when he plays for England, id feel the same with the Lions.

Some posters on here go on like Rugby is tiddlewinks, its a brutal, physical sport.

Well you should be because he missed the last world cup and the last Lions tour because of discipline issues. Is that really what you want from an England captain? He looks set to miss part of this years six nations too. Would you be shocked if he missed out on the next Lions tour too?

That was SL's choice, I'd have took him to the WC. The Lions, well, I dont really care.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Then you have Moore (x2), BdP, Mealamu etc etc.

I like a hooker to be abrasive, you obviously dont, no issues. Hartley rarely crosses the line when playing Int rugby, thats good enough for me. If i was a Saints fan he'd annoy me, but I'm not. I'm not really sure of the problem if you dont follow Saints.

Eh surely the problem is he misses lots of international matches because of ill discipline?

A few yes.

My point is he's not a liability in the slightest at Int level.

It wasnt really he would have been banned for the first week of the tournament.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Then you have Moore (x2), BdP, Mealamu etc etc.

I like a hooker to be abrasive, you obviously dont, no issues. Hartley rarely crosses the line when playing Int rugby, thats good enough for me. If i was a Saints fan he'd annoy me, but I'm not. I'm not really sure of the problem if you dont follow Saints.

Eh surely the problem is he misses lots of international matches because of ill discipline? Where was your beloved Hartley when England were getting hammered out of their own world cup?

Probably on the couch having a pizza.

Be careful of making such accusations, Guns.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Then you have Moore (x2), BdP, Mealamu etc etc.

I like a hooker to be abrasive, you obviously dont, no issues. Hartley rarely crosses the line when playing Int rugby, thats good enough for me. If i was a Saints fan he'd annoy me, but I'm not. I'm not really sure of the problem if you dont follow Saints.

Eh surely the problem is he misses lots of international matches because of ill discipline?

A few yes.

My point is he's not a liability in the slightest at Int level.

Well you cant be if you are not there. In any case he has received bans at international level too. 8 weeks for biting Stephen Ferris in a 6N game.

Even if you consider this latest tackle as disgraceful intent to injure, that headbutt as ferocious etc etc, if he's available will England leave him out? Will Gatland? I think they probably won't.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Then you have Moore (x2), BdP, Mealamu etc etc.

I like a hooker to be abrasive, you obviously dont, no issues. Hartley rarely crosses the line when playing Int rugby, thats good enough for me. If i was a Saints fan he'd annoy me, but I'm not. I'm not really sure of the problem if you dont follow Saints.

Eh surely the problem is he misses lots of international matches because of ill discipline?

A few yes.

My point is he's not a liability in the slightest at Int level.

Well you cant be if you are not there. In any case he has received bans at international level too. 8 weeks for biting Stephen Ferris in a 6N game.

How come the Irish are more concerned about him missing game time at International level than the English?

Because he's competing with Best

As he also competes with Jamie George for England, residents of Nigel Wray's Passage in the grand old rugby nation Barnet are similarly outraged

As it happens, I'm of the opinion that all 3 should be in the Lions squad, with either of the two captains as tour captain, the other as midweek captain and George the favourite to come off the bench

Well he's got almost 80 caps so he's doing something right.

Good player Ferris, that incident was a while back, hes improved immeasurably since then for England.

Some of these comments would suggest some posters have never actually played rugby to me.

Hartley has niggle, he can cross the line. He doesnt do this often for England...whats the problem?

What is the Irish obsession with Hartley missing a few England games anyway, we're not overly concerned with it. It's a little odd tbh.

As it goes, I think Best is a better player.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Then you have Moore (x2), BdP, Mealamu etc etc.

I like a hooker to be abrasive, you obviously dont, no issues. Hartley rarely crosses the line when playing Int rugby, thats good enough for me. If i was a Saints fan he'd annoy me, but I'm not. I'm not really sure of the problem if you dont follow Saints.

Eh surely the problem is he misses lots of international matches because of ill discipline?

A few yes.

My point is he's not a liability in the slightest at Int level.

Well you cant be if you are not there. In any case he has received bans at international level too. 8 weeks for biting Stephen Ferris in a 6N game.

How come the Irish are more concerned about him missing game time at International level than the English?

The Lions tour is next summer and he is set to miss part of or potentially all of the six nations. Thats not great prep for a Lions tour.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

What is the Irish obsession with Hartley missing a few England games anyway, we're not overly concerned with it. It's a little odd tbh.

As it goes, I think Best is a better player.

I wouldn't say the Irish have an obsession with Hartley. But perhaps the opposite might have legs? The Irish are only here talking about it because it happens Hartley has struck again whilst playing against Irish players in an Irish side. Gotta talk about the game and Hartley was a big part of the news coming from it.

Well there we are then back to Hartley for capatain. No Irish on the other side.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well he's got almost 80 caps so he's doing something right.

Good player Ferris, that incident was a while back, hes improved immeasurably since then for England.

Some of these comments would suggest some posters have never actually played rugby to me.

Hartley has niggle, he can cross the line. He doesnt do this often for England...whats the problem?

What is the Irish obsession with Hartley missing a few England games anyway, we're not overly concerned with it. It's a little odd tbh.

As it goes, I think Best is a better player.

Over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in the behaviour of the irish posters on here, whenever there is a whiff of coloured cards, citings or ban they turn into pool of frenzied sharks.
Some of the comments aimed at Israel Dagg and Sam Cane on here two weeks ago were unbelievable,I was somewhat relieved when Sam cane was cited as it seemed to appease the Irish, even though I knew he was always going to be exonerated by the Judicial panel.

269 Posts !!

"Dylan Hartley has been careless - but do not write him off as Lions catain"
Sir Ian McGeechan

That's good enough for me - never particularly liked the player although known as a gent off the pitch.

Jamie George to play the next game against France is a good thing - from an English perspective.

Maybe it was a trick by Hartley to be fresh for England.... just focus on England.

He's barely played for Saints this season and with a ban he won't for a while either.

It's okay to bite,gouge, abuse refs, sending swinging arms into opposition..... part of rugby....

Concussions.. part of rugby, injurying opposition... part of rugby.

Don't worry lads it's okay if Hartley gets another ban. He's captain of England so it's not a problem.

Positive role model for England captain.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Then you have Moore (x2), BdP, Mealamu etc etc.

I like a hooker to be abrasive, you obviously dont, no issues. Hartley rarely crosses the line when playing Int rugby, thats good enough for me. If i was a Saints fan he'd annoy me, but I'm not. I'm not really sure of the problem if you dont follow Saints.

Eh surely the problem is he misses lots of international matches because of ill discipline? Where was your beloved Hartley when England were getting hammered out of their own world cup?

Probably on the couch having a pizza.

Probably glad he wasn't there whilst everyone else had to suffer the horrors unfolding! Jeez are you blaming the World Cup disaster on Hartley now....??

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well he's got almost 80 caps so he's doing something right.

Good player Ferris, that incident was a while back, hes improved immeasurably since then for England.

Some of these comments would suggest some posters have never actually played rugby to me.

Hartley has niggle, he can cross the line. He doesnt do this often for England...whats the problem?

What is the Irish obsession with Hartley missing a few England games anyway, we're not overly concerned with it. It's a little odd tbh.

As it goes, I think Best is a better player.

Over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in the behaviour of the irish posters on here,  whenever there is a whiff of  coloured cards, citings or ban they turn into pool of frenzied sharks.
Some of the comments aimed at Israel Dagg and Sam Cane on here two weeks ago were unbelievable,I was somewhat relieved when Sam cane was cited as it seemed to appease the Irish, even though I knew he was always going to be exonerated by the Judicial panel.

I remember 'Rory you are very hard to discuss this with whist you are being so emotional, it will not be interesting if there is a citing, and I'll tell you why.
There will be no citing. I know that you now will demand that I produce evidednce of this, and I cant, doesnt mean to say I am wrong though.'

SecretFly wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

What is the Irish obsession with Hartley missing a few England games anyway, we're not overly concerned with it. It's a little odd tbh.

As it goes, I think Best is a better player.

I wouldn't say the Irish have an obsession with Hartley.   But perhaps the opposite might have legs?  The Irish are only here talking about it because it happens Hartley has struck again whilst playing against Irish players in an Irish side.  Gotta talk about the game and Hartley was a big part of the news coming from it.

Must say George Pisi is flying under the radar.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well he's got almost 80 caps so he's doing something right.

Good player Ferris, that incident was a while back, hes improved immeasurably since then for England.

Some of these comments would suggest some posters have never actually played rugby to me.

Hartley has niggle, he can cross the line. He doesnt do this often for England...whats the problem?

What is the Irish obsession with Hartley missing a few England games anyway, we're not overly concerned with it. It's a little odd tbh.

As it goes, I think Best is a better player.

Over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in the behaviour of the irish posters on here,  whenever there is a whiff of  coloured cards, citings or ban they turn into pool of frenzied sharks.
Some of the comments aimed at Israel Dagg and Sam Cane on here two weeks ago were unbelievable,I was somewhat relieved when Sam cane was cited as it seemed to appease the Irish, even though I knew he was always going to be exonerated by the Judicial panel.

I remember 'Rory you are very hard to discuss this with whist you are being so emotional, it will not be interesting if there is a citing, and I'll tell you why.
There will be no citing. I know that you now will demand that I produce evidednce of this, and I cant, doesnt mean to say I am wrong though.'

And when we look back in hindsight, it wasnt much of a citing.

beshocked wrote:Maybe it was a trick by Hartley to be fresh for England.... just focus on England.

He's barely played for Saints this season and with a ban he won't for a while either.

It's okay to bite,gouge, abuse refs, sending swinging arms into opposition..... part of rugby....

Concussions.. part of rugby, injurying opposition... part of rugby.

Don't worry lads it's okay if Hartley gets another ban. He's captain of England so it's not a problem.

Positive role model for England captain.

You must hate Burger playing for you. And the last Burger as well. And Hamilton.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well he's got almost 80 caps so he's doing something right.

Good player Ferris, that incident was a while back, hes improved immeasurably since then for England.

Some of these comments would suggest some posters have never actually played rugby to me.

Hartley has niggle, he can cross the line. He doesnt do this often for England...whats the problem?

What is the Irish obsession with Hartley missing a few England games anyway, we're not overly concerned with it. It's a little odd tbh.

As it goes, I think Best is a better player.

Over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in the behaviour of the irish posters on here,  whenever there is a whiff of  coloured cards, citings or ban they turn into pool of frenzied sharks.
Some of the comments aimed at Israel Dagg and Sam Cane on here two weeks ago were unbelievable,I was somewhat relieved when Sam cane was cited as it seemed to appease the Irish, even though I knew he was always going to be exonerated by the Judicial panel.

Unfortunately you do see them winding up over the course of a few pages into the frenzy of which you speak. By nation the Scots are the best posters on here. Half the time the Irish are great and the other half you just see the righteous indignation building.

lostinwales wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well he's got almost 80 caps so he's doing something right.

Good player Ferris, that incident was a while back, hes improved immeasurably since then for England.

Some of these comments would suggest some posters have never actually played rugby to me.

Hartley has niggle, he can cross the line. He doesnt do this often for England...whats the problem?

What is the Irish obsession with Hartley missing a few England games anyway, we're not overly concerned with it. It's a little odd tbh.

As it goes, I think Best is a better player.

Over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in the behaviour of the irish posters on here,  whenever there is a whiff of  coloured cards, citings or ban they turn into pool of frenzied sharks.
Some of the comments aimed at Israel Dagg and Sam Cane on here two weeks ago were unbelievable,I was somewhat relieved when Sam cane was cited as it seemed to appease the Irish, even though I knew he was always going to be exonerated by the Judicial panel.

Unfortunately you do see them winding up over the course of a few pages into the frenzy of which you speak. By nation the Scots are the best posters on here. Half the time the Irish are great and the other half you just see the righteous indignation building.

So if there was a 606 poster Lions the Scots would dominate the teamsheet and not just bring a token fullback and tour doctor?

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in the behaviour of the irish posters on here,  whenever there is a whiff of  coloured cards, citings or ban they turn into pool of frenzied sharks.

Better be a frenzied shark in the use of 606 verbal overdrive than a pack of frenzied sharks in a rugby game? Even Hansen said that 2nd game was the most physical he'd witnessed in quite a time. Quite a statement from an ABs coach and quite a pointed comment given it was his boys doing most of the extra curricular physicals.

lostinwales wrote:

Unfortunately you do see them winding up over the course of a few pages into the frenzy of which you speak. By nation the Scots are the best posters on here. Half the time the Irish are great and the other half you just see the righteous indignation building.

..and the Kiwi and English posters are too thin skinned to take criticism????

Haha quick hide.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Unfortunately you do see them winding up over the course of a few pages into the frenzy of which you speak. By nation the Scots are the best posters on here. Half the time the Irish are great and the other half you just see the righteous indignation building.

..and the Kiwi and English posters are too thin skinned to take criticism????

Haha quick hide.

Yeah yeah, I know. First nation without any 'richard head' posters can cast the first stone....

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Unfortunately you do see them winding up over the course of a few pages into the frenzy of which you speak. By nation the Scots are the best posters on here. Half the time the Irish are great and the other half you just see the righteous indignation building.

..and the Kiwi and English posters are too thin skinned to take criticism????

Haha quick hide.

Yeah yeah, I know. First nation without any 'richard head' posters can cast the first stone....

Yeah I was only joking, the categorisation of nations posters is really silly IMO.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Unfortunately you do see them winding up over the course of a few pages into the frenzy of which you speak. By nation the Scots are the best posters on here. Half the time the Irish are great and the other half you just see the righteous indignation building.

..and the Kiwi and English posters are too thin skinned to take criticism????

Haha quick hide.

Yeah yeah, I know. First nation without any 'richard head' posters can cast the first stone....

Munchkin wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Unfortunately you do see them winding up over the course of a few pages into the frenzy of which you speak. By nation the Scots are the best posters on here. Half the time the Irish are great and the other half you just see the righteous indignation building.

..and the Kiwi and English posters are too thin skinned to take criticism????

Haha quick hide.

Yeah yeah, I know. First nation without any 'richard head' posters can cast the first stone....

I always wondered why young Irish guys are always tall and thin, and old Irish guys are short and wide - and here is the reason why

lostinwales wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Unfortunately you do see them winding up over the course of a few pages into the frenzy of which you speak. By nation the Scots are the best posters on here. Half the time the Irish are great and the other half you just see the righteous indignation building.

..and the Kiwi and English posters are too thin skinned to take criticism????

Haha quick hide.

Yeah yeah, I know. First nation without any 'richard head' posters can cast the first stone....

I always wondered why young Irish guys are always tall and thin, and old Irish guys are short and wide - and here is the reason why

Makes sense

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Maybe it was a trick by Hartley to be fresh for England.... just focus on England.

He's barely played for Saints this season and with a ban he won't for a while either.

It's okay to bite,gouge, abuse refs, sending swinging arms into opposition..... part of rugby....

Concussions.. part of rugby, injurying opposition... part of rugby.

Don't worry lads it's okay if Hartley gets another ban. He's captain of England so it's not a problem.

Positive role model for England captain.

You must hate Burger playing for you. And the last Burger as well. And Hamilton.

Yes because of course they all have as many bans as Hartley..... Of course they've recently picked up a RC and a ban....

I don't think the 3 combined have been off as long as Hartley.

J.Burger has been banned for less weeks than Daly in a much longer career.....

Now if you mentioned former Saints boy Ashton you might have a point but I've given up defending his stupidity. I wouldn't call his behaviour good either.

Both those two learnt from each other. It's funny that they'll both be serving bans together...

So that's a yes or a no?

Why would I hate players who aren't in the same league of notoriety as Hartley?

None of them have cost Saracens an AP title. None of the old demons of Hamilton or S.Burger have reared their heads.

J.Burger was similar.

I think's insulting to compare a thug like Hartley who has such a long record of offences to these players.

SecretFly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in the behaviour of the irish posters on here,  whenever there is a whiff of  coloured cards, citings or ban they turn into pool of frenzied sharks.

Better be a frenzied shark in the use of 606 verbal overdrive than a pack of frenzied sharks in a rugby game?  Even Hansen said that 2nd game was the most physical he'd witnessed in quite a time.  Quite a statement from an ABs coach and quite a pointed comment given it was his boys doing most of the extra curricular physicals.

But along the way you have to keep things in context, the anger and outrage shown after the game was not in any way supported by the citing officer or the judicial panel.

It was the 606 overdrive that was demanding that several All Blacks go before the firing squad (OK slight exageration), but once the dust settled, and calm knowledgeable minds reviewed the issues we ended up with one player getting a one week ban. Hartley is just getting to the dust settling stage.

Hate them playing for you not hate them. You just talked of good role models etc. You'd acknowledge they're not whiter than white, just wondered where you came down on judging them. Not as harshly obviously. Not really down to whether you consider them costing Saracens just more on their past behaviour. Plenty would call Schalk and Hamilton thugs after all.

Why would I hate them?

Jacques Burger is a top bloke. I haven't met Hamilton or S.Burger but I am sure they are nice enough. I've heard from a good source that S.Burger is very professional.

They are not whiter than white but their records are nowhere near as bad as Hartley.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in the behaviour of the irish posters on here,  whenever there is a whiff of  coloured cards, citings or ban they turn into pool of frenzied sharks.

Better be a frenzied shark in the use of 606 verbal overdrive than a pack of frenzied sharks in a rugby game?  Even Hansen said that 2nd game was the most physical he'd witnessed in quite a time.  Quite a statement from an ABs coach and quite a pointed comment given it was his boys doing most of the extra curricular physicals.

But along the way you have to keep things in context, the anger and outrage  shown after the game was not in any way supported by the citing officer or the judicial panel.

It was the 606 overdrive that was demanding that several All Blacks go before the firing squad (OK slight exageration), but once the dust settled, and calm knowledgeable minds reviewed the issues we ended up with one player getting a one week ban. Hartley is just getting to the dust settling stage.

No, not at all. Think that about sums up our thoughts on the matter, but the citing commission was so weak it wouldn't even consider our more than reasonable request!

To be fair to the Irish I still think they are smarting from when Umaga and Mealamu got away with spear tackling BOD.

Hartley being of NZ origin brings up painful memories of that injustice. To be fair I agree. It was disgraceful.

Though Hartley is English so he doesn't escape a ban.

beshocked wrote:Why would I hate them?

Jacques Burger is a top bloke. I haven't met Hamilton or S.Burger but I am sure they are nice enough. I've heard from a good source that S.Burger is very professional.

They are not whiter than white but their records are nowhere near as bad as Hartley.

Like I said; not hate them as people but hate them playing for Saracens. They've all crossed the line, all could be considered poor role models for aspects of past play and indiscretions. Is it down to length of ban rather than actions?

If they cost Saracens an AP title like Hartley did for Saints then yes perhaps.

You talk about crossing the line. S.Burger's discipline is better than many.

Hartley's disciplinary record is one of the worst in rugby.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/biting-brawling-attacking-rival-fans-11917177

Schalk Burger is joint 51.

Hartley is an impressive 11th.


Putting it into perspective - Hartley has been banned 6 x as long.

1. Banned for life - twice

beshocked wrote:If they cost Saracens an AP title like Hartley did for Saints then yes perhaps.

You talk about crossing the line. S.Burger's discipline is better than many.

Hartley's disciplinary record is one of the worst in rugby.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/biting-brawling-attacking-rival-fans-11917177

Schalk Burger is joint 51.

Hartley is an impressive 11th.


Putting it into perspective - Hartley has been banned 6 x as long.

So it's not peoples actions that you hold against them but outcomes of matches and disciplinaries then. My initial interest wass around role models annd how those 3 which seemed obvious fit with that. Thanks for letting me know.

beshocked wrote:
Schalk Burger is joint 51.

Hartley is an impressive 11th.

Putting it into perspective - Hartley has been banned 6 x as long.

Not a great choice of comparison. Burger's ban for gouging was totally inappropriate and was widely regarded at the time as a failure of the system. Scroll down the rest of the list and there are plenty of bigger bans for similar or lesser gouging offences.

While there's no doubt that Hartley's a worse case - and a multiple offender - I also think that some of his punishments have been more harsh than they would have been without his original gouging ban. The "headbutt" on George was technically contact with the head but anyone thinking it was dangerous needs their own head examined, and the biting citing never seriously looked at why there was a finger in his mouth in the first place...

beshocked wrote:To be fair to the Irish I still think they are smarting from when Umaga and Mealamu got away with spear tackling BOD.

Hartley being of NZ origin brings up painful memories of that injustice. To be fair I agree. It was disgraceful.

Though Hartley is English so he doesn't escape a ban.

Leaving intent out if it, the refreshing part of this Hartley business is the way that his coach and the English pundits called it as it was (a stupid red card) instead of making things up to try and cover for him. Rugby fans tend to get less riled up by a bit of rough and tumble when the perpetrators and their mates have the bottle to own it.