F1 German GP Thread - Contains Qualifying & Race Spoilers as usual

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

Ain't doing it no one reads it anyway

[GSC]

Sounds like McLarens higher ups have told them to ditch Honda.

[Guest]

I think pieces are already being moved behind the scenes, it's three years down the drain, so I would assume McLaren will take Mercedes engines next season?

But then, the other notable stuff this week, was Eddie Jordan's comments about Mercedes returning to just being an engine supplier from 2019. Why announce something like that? I don't trust either him or Toto's denial, but with Liberty probably looking to ditch these hybrid engines at the next available opportunity, I do wonder if Mercedes are contemplating returning to being solely an engine supplier? Red Bull & McLaren clearly are in need of engine deals going forward, so I do wonder if some long term negotiations are taking place. Might be all nonsense, but I guess that's the fun of it all & something to discuss.

[GSC]

The chassis is obviously competitive, question is whether what spec they get from Merc. If they go back to McLaren Mercedes then might be legs in Merc walking away.

Would probably keep Fernando around

[Jermaine2015]

I also think Mercedes will quit when the hybrid engines are removed. They only joined as a manufacturer when they where assured that the hybrids where guaranteed.

[dyrewolfe]

I really hope hybrid engines are ditched. They make the cars ridiculously complicated and needlessly expensive (especially since the size reduction), for relatively little environmental benefit.

Hybrid tech is already well established in the road car market anyway.

Still wish McLaren would start making their own F1 engines (especially if hybrids are ditched)...I'm pretty sure their backers could afford to bankroll it.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

I really hope hybrid engines are ditched. They make the cars ridiculously complicated and needlessly expensive (especially since the size reduction), for relatively little environmental benefit.

Hybrid tech is already well established in the road car market anyway.

Still wish McLaren would start making their own F1 engines (especially if hybrids are ditched)...I'm pretty sure their backers could afford to bankroll it.

The issue for McLaren is how to replace the £100m a season Honda are paying into the team - without that there's no finding £40m for Alonso, though granted he'll struggle to find that elsewhere given the big teams seem to have their lineups sorted

[GSC]

They're losing a similar amount in sponsorship given their positions at the back.

[dyrewolfe]

They're losing a similar amount in sponsorship given their positions at the back.

Exactly.

That £100m won't go far if potential sponsors start to see them as irrelevant to the sport, because they're at the back of the grid, or failing to finish races.

[Guest]

Some pretty ridiculous Q3 stuff from Hamilton & Vettel

Hamilton 0.004 quicker than Vettel

[Guest]

Hamilton pole. Incredible lap

[GSC]

Hamilton's favourite track and he nailed a lap.

Problem is he really needs Bottas to start beating Vettel

Don't underestimate the job Rosberg did for the team...

[dyrewolfe]

Well it shows Merc still have the ultimate pace...although Ferrari aren't that far behind.

Problem is Ferrari seem to run better in race trim. They're also pretty handy off the grid.

Also, IIRC Merc will be starting on Ultras, while Ferrari will be on Supers. If so, Ferrari will be able to run longer and maybe get the undercut (assuming they don't get past on the start).

Still far from done and dusted.

Very nice gesture from the Senna family to give Hamilton one of Ayrton's helmets. Get the feeling that will take pride of place in his memorabilia room.

[Guest]

Vettel down to fourth & slight wing damage

[Guest]

Ferrari have had a mare

[Guest]

Enjoyable tussle for third, fourth & fifth. FI & Perez brought that on themselves. Good recovery from Vettel.

[Fernando]

Ocon could of got 3rd if Perez let him past, With 13 laps younger tyres & a merc engine he'd have sailed past Ricciardo

[dyrewolfe]

Stupid and selfish by Sergio Perez...cost his team a podium. Ocon was on much fresher tyres and could probably have caught Ricciardo.

Mind you the pit wall were just as bad, fannying around asking him to move instead of just ordering him to switch places.

[dyrewolfe]

Unbelieveable bad luck for Alonso...engine giving up AGAIN with just 2 laps to go. Was on to score McLaren's first point of the season.


Anyway, good win for Hamilton. Nailed the start and controlled the restart well. Never looked in serious trouble. Good result for Bottas too.

Ricciardo seems to have made 3rd place his this season. Don't think he could have done much more. Awful luck for Verstappen to go out like that while 2nd.

Decent rescue job by Ferrari after an awful start. Congrats to Stroll on scoring his first points at his home GP.

[owen10ozzy]

Thoroughly enjoyed that tussle! And ill be honest, I think good on Perez for not letting Ocon past. Every time the whole team order argument crops up at the top of the order i.e. Ferrari etc...everyone is up in arms and saying let them race, now suddenly people are of the mind Perez should have let him past? Why...because Ocon had a chance for podium? So what...if he had that good a pace and chance at 3rd he would have found a way around his teammate...like Vettel did!

Simple fact is...these guys are RACING drivers...not bus drivers. That was one of the best race spectacles in a long time and you'll get no complaints from me about what we just watched.

Move of the day...Maxie V! Amazing start and the replay didn't do his driving justice...he didn't just go up through the side, he literally weaved his way through at great speed.

[dyrewolfe]

Thoroughly enjoyed that tussle! And ill be honest, I think good on Perez for not letting Ocon past. Every time the whole team order argument crops up at the top of the order i.e. Ferrari etc...everyone is up in arms and saying let them race, now suddenly people are of the mind Perez should have let him past? Why...because Ocon had a chance for podium? So what...if he had that good a pace and chance at 3rd he would have found a way around his teammate...like Vettel did!

Simple fact is...these guys are RACING drivers...not bus drivers. That was one of the best race spectacles in a long time and you'll get no complaints from me about what we just watched.

Move of the day...Maxie V! Amazing start and the replay didn't do his driving justice...he didn't just go up through the side, he literally weaved his way through at great speed.

Difference being Vettel was in a clearly superior car. Much harder to overtake when you're racing someone in basically the same car as you.

In case you didn't notice Ocon tried a few times to get past, but just didn't have enough of an advantage to overtake cleanly and safely. He could have tried high risk move and taken them both out, a la Hamilton and Rosberg in Spain.

Also, since you obviously missed this, F1 is a TEAM sport and when your team asks you to do something for the benefit of the TEAM, you should damn well do it (and this was NOT like the Hamilton - Rosberg incident in Austria, as Rosberg was not on Hamilton's gearbox when he asked the team to be let past).

Consequently, FI missed out on 4th and 5th and Ocon was denied the chance to challenge Ricciardo for a podium...all because Perez could only think of himself.

For the record I'm not a fan of team orders, but logic clearly dictated they should have been implemented in this case.

[owen10ozzy]

Dyre - Well aware that Ferrari is the much better package...no need for the sarcastic head shake. You mentioned that Ocon could have tried a high risk move, which is not without it's dangers obviously, but it's exactly what Vettel had to do to get past Ocon anyhow...even with the much better car you spoke of.

And yes I am well aware that F1 is a team sport...but when you race in a team that isn't competing for podiums week in week out then as a RACER...of course individually the likes of Perez etc will not want to adhere to team orders and will want the opportunity of a possible podium for themself not their team mate.

I know fully where you are coming from in terms of it made more sense for Ocon to be allowed past Perez...but since the team essentially suggested the idea rather than firmly told Perez (which showed a real lack of leadership within the upper management) then for me the onus goes on to the driver to make it happen..Ocon couldn't for whatever reason.

Like I said, putting logic and all else aside, it was just fantastic to see some real competitive driving between multiple positions at the top end for a change.

[GSC]

Overtaking in equal machinery is nigh impossible in todays F1 without a tyre/reliability advantage.

You drive for the team not yourself. These team orders are almost always caveated by an agreement to reverse the position if the driver behind doesn't make significant inroads. Perez was in the wrong.

[GSC]

Anyway, Ferraris first bad weekend of the season. Will be interesting to see the reaction in Baku. Was a very strong Merc track last year, Lewis with a point to prove after bottling what should've been an easy pole/win.

[CaledonianCraig]

Seems to be growing rumours going around of a mystery new team being put together for next year. Christian Horner claims 'a new team' is trying to poach several of his staff for next year. Another source claims that Audi are to enter F1. Thoughts?

[Fernando]

Bit late to be signing up staff most will have started their car designing a good few months ago.

[CaledonianCraig]

Bit late to be signing up staff most will have started their car designing a good few months ago.

To be fair I don't think Horner says when his staff were being tapped up. It may have been months ago and he never said which kind of staff it were. The car design and designer may already be in place at this new team.

[Fernando]

Had a look at an article seems to be a chinese consortium looking to buy what's left of Manor.

"Some of our people were asked if they would be interested in working for a new team," Horner said via Auto Motor und Sport.

"But to start next year with a new team, it is actually already too late."

Can probably rule this one out tbh.

[GSC]

Baku moves to the first European GP next year, between Bahrain and Spain. France takes it's spot, Russia moves back to late season

[Fernando]

You'd have thought go GB > France > Germany > Austria to save money on travel really.

[GSC]

To be honest the cost of distance is probably minimal compared to infrastructure

[dyrewolfe]

You'd have thought go GB > France > Germany > Austria to save money on travel really.

I've never understood why they don't just go East to West, instead of hopping back and forth across the world. Hugely inefficient in terms of both time and money.

To be honest the cost of distance is probably minimal compared to infrastructure

Don't kid yourself. The logistics of F1 are horrendous. Think of the cost of transporting 20 chassis, plus all the components and tools to build 20 cars.

Plus spares.
Plus tyres.
Plus fuel rigs.
Plus the pit wall monitoring gear.
Plus the hospitality centres.

Plus maintaining and driving the small fleet of articulated lorries that take the gear all over the world.

Then think about the cost of flying the pit crews and the rest of the support staff to all the venues, as well as the hotel / accommodation costs.

You're talking millions of pounds right there, certainly over the course of a season. Not to mention a horrendous carbon footprint.

Infrastructure (factory and test facilities) are probably significantly cheaper to set up. The real cost there comes from the R&D, which is probably the single biggest cost for any team.



In other news there are rumours McLaren are considering running a Ferrari engine with an Alfa Romeo badge next season.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/opinion-f1-mclaren-alfa-romeo-919226/

I'd be more enthusiastic if they were considering running an actual Alfa engine, considering Ferrari customer engines tend to be less competitive than what the works team uses. I foresee the same problem if they go back to Mercedes. Maybe not Renault, but then their engine isn't such an attractive option.

I still wish McLaren would set up their own engine shop...especially if the idea of ditching hybrid power ever happens.

[GSC]

I mean the infrastructure of moving this stuff.

When you sort all of that stuff out, the cost difference between a 1 hour flight and 2 hours is probably minimal.

[GSC]

Kaltenborn has left Sauber

[GSC]

Obvious link is Honda buying the team like Lotus and Renault.

[GSC]

Not sure how Haas brake problems have persisted since last year

[GSC]

Red Bulls look quick, but Vettel had an edge on the race sims.

Hamilton having one of his nowhere weekends on low grip tracks so far. Needs a response tomorrow because the Red Bulls may be in the fight here.

[nathan]

Vettel showing his temper again. Surely he'll be getting a ban for that

[owen10ozzy]

Hamilton did nothing wrong, just didnt accelerate out of the corner which is his perogative anyway given he is following the safety car...can hardly stick right behind it...

Either way...you cannot pull out from the fast lane, go alongside a fellow car and purposefully turn into another car! Its not just dangerous its plain stupidity and quite frankly cheating...you know you can damage a car by doing it!! Shocking from Vettel..showing his petulance when things aren t going his way.

[nathan]

Yeah, they put the graphic up showing both braking/accelerating and it showed at impact Hamilton wasn't braking and vettel was accelerating.

He really does act like a child sometimes

[nathan]

Bottas flying now, vettel looks quicker at the minute

[owen10ozzy]

Hamilton bang on the money....that was not even a slap on the wrist for Vettel. FIA have basically said "drive into your rival on purpose and can still finish ahead of him after we penalise you" Absolutely disgusting that Hamilton is going to lose out in the championship race after this..

And had it been the other way around i would say exactly the same. The marshals have set a very dangerous precident with that decision...would be nothing to stop Hamilton running into Vettel on purpose down the line and then rightfully arguing he can only be penalised with stop go penalty

[owen10ozzy]

I just thought as well....Vettel got a brand new wing without it costing him anything too...despite it being his fault he ran into the back of him.

Hows your luck Vettel!

[owen10ozzy]

Fantastic drama and race! Best of the season so far?!

Incredible drive from Bottas but drive of the day Stroll. So chuffed for him and williams. Also grand job from Ricciardo!

However all that being said...its a weekend with a black mark against F1 given the handling of the Vettel incident & it will leave a serious question mark against the World title picture now

[nathan]

Although I think vettel should of being given a bigger penalty for being an idiot and then having the cheek to not know where he drove dangerously. The only reason Hamilton didn't win was because of his head rest which the fault has to lay at his teams door for not fitting it correctly.

[GSC]

It will for his fans if he doesn't win.

Everyone else will have moved in a few weeks

[owen10ozzy]

Completely disagree with that GSC...

Yes people will move on from it....but a) when looking back on Championships it will be tainted to a degree just look others in history have been b) more importantly, the punishment ensures this will without doubt crop up again now because the governing body, if no further punishment comes, have given the green light for not dangerous but calculated reckless driving with minimum punishment

Looking at the podium 3 though...great stuff from all 3 and thoroughly deserved!

[dyrewolfe]

Wow - who would have predicted this would be the most exciting race of the season...and arguably the most exciting race for some time?

Some actual wheel to wheel racing plus a whole load of incidents...and it didn't even need any rain! Only marred by Vettel's childish petulance after he misjudged when Hamilton was going to go after the SC...and he even had the nerve to drive alongside and bump wheels afterwards!

Have to say I felt like punching him in the face when he whined over the radio about getting the stop-go penalty. There's trying to influence the stewards and then there is just being idiotic.

Anyway congrats to Ricciardo. Took full advantage of the chaos going on around him and cruised fairly serenely to the win...after a very gutsy late-braking manouevre to get past a couple of cars (Williams, Force India)? Once again gutted for Verstappen. Drove the wheels off his car only to be rewarded with another engine issue.

Kimi equally unlucky with a puncture after running over some debris.

Fantastic comeback by Bottas after being back of the pack...dramatic last-gasp lunge to take Stroll on the finish line. Seems the hand of fate intervened once again for Hamilton to maintain Azerbaijan's status as a bogey track for Lewis. But for the loose head-rest, this would have been his race.

Congrats to Lance Stroll on his first podium in his rookie season. Stayed out of trouble while cars were crashing out all around him and managed to keep Ricciardo honest. Just ran out of grip I guess at the end as Bottas chased him down. Gutted for Massa with mechanical damage forcing an early retirement.

Also have to say congrats to Alonso for scoring McLaren's first points of the season! Think he was 4th at one point. Imagine what he could have done with some decent horsepower behind him...

[nathan]

Lol, how embarrassing for vettel on that interview

[nathan]

Vettel not even man enough to acknowledge the incident

[GSC]

Completely disagree with that GSC...

Yes people will move on from it....but a) when looking back on Championships it will be tainted to a degree just look others in history have been b) more importantly, the punishment ensures this will without doubt crop up again now because the governing body, if no further punishment comes, have given the green light for not dangerous but calculated reckless driving with minimum punishment

Looking at the podium 3 though...great stuff from all 3 and thoroughly deserved!

What utter Love sacks. Nobodies putting an asterix against a title at the end of a season because somebody thinks a particular penalty was lenient in a one off incident in one race. Most will not care once we move onto the next GP and there are new talking points generated.

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