Crusaders v British & Irish Lions, 10 June

First topic message reminder :

Crusaders v British & Irish Lions
10 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Rugby League Park, Christchurch

Live on Sky Sports, Sky Sports HD and SkyGo

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. FORM:

2 June 1993: Canterbury 10 - 28 British & Irish Lions

28 June 1983: Canterbury 22 - 20 British & Irish Lions

25 June 1977: Canterbury 13 - 14 British & Irish Lions

B. TEAMS:

Crusaders
I Dagg, S Tamanivalu, J Goodhue, D Havili, G Bridge, R Mo'unga, B Hall, J Moody, C Taylor, O Franks, L Romano, S Whitelock (capt), H Bedwell-Curtis, M Todd, J Taufua.

Replacements: B Funnell, W Crockett, M Alaalatoa, Q Strange, J Brown, M Drummond, M Hunt, T Bateman.

British & Irish Lions
S Hogg; G North, J Davies; B Te'o, L Williams; O Farrell; C Murray; M Vunipola, J George, T Furlong; AW Jones (capt), G Kruis; P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, T Faletau

Replacements: K Owens, J McGrath, D Cole, M Itoje, CJ Stander, R Webb, J Sexton, A Watson

C. PREVIEW

Maybe the Lions are keeping there powder dry for the Tests,do just
enough to win matches.They looked fairly comfortable against the
Blues in second half up to 72 minute,then bang a try from nowhere.

king_carlos wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I wonder if Gats sees AWJ and Kruis as a test partnership? Personally I wouldn't separate Kruis and Itoje, and it'd be hard to leave out Lawes if he continues in this form. Itoje to 6, or was that 6N experiment considered a fail?

From what I've seen so far it looks as if a number of players have no pride in the jersey and are just here for a pay day. Henshaw and Payne didn't get out first gear on Wednesday so right now I expect the midfield for the ABs to be Farrell, Te'o, JD2 - that's assuming Davies has a stormer this Saturday, otherwise it's JJ.

I thought Owens went well too but he also had a familiar jumper in Tips, along with Itoje who also happens to be a good lineout jumper/caller. Best came on and in typical Rory Best fashion lost the most important lineout. This is why I would have selected Hartley over him.

Itoje played lock in the 6 Nations whilst wearing 6. He packed down in the second row at scrum time. He acted as secondary jumper in the centre of the line-out rather than the 3rd jumper being thrown up at the front or tail occasionally as a change up (this is the job performed by the third jumper since Borthwick has run the line-out). Lawes and Itoje were also performing the same role around the park as they would as locks regardless of the number on their backs.

Given where Itoje's strengths lie he was also working the same role in open play as he would as a lock. I.e. sticking close to the ruck and contact situations where he can be involved in as many tackles and rucks as possible, which is where he is so strong.

All that said he has the work rate and ability to cover enough ground to be an excellent blind side. Contrary to what some believed from the 6 Nations he is yet to be properly tested as a 6 at international level though.

Thanks, very informative. If the world class performer that is AWJ doesn't have a stormer on Saturday thrn I'm afraid it's all 3 English locks for the ABs, and possibly all of them in the starting team.

I think Lawes has been the pick of the locks and Itoje probably second. Lawes has been the only to put a particularly impressive performance in though. Itoje was solid but little more. AWJ and Henderson were very poor as has been discussed.

If AWJ struggles as much for match sharpness tomorrow then he shouldn't make the side for the Maori game. Especially with Warburton so short of gametime the 'first choice' pack can't afford to have two guys that short of match fitness.

With so many good flankers on tour I wouldn't want Itoje being looked at as a 6. Tipuric has had a great season, O'Brien is a fantastic player in form and O'Mahony has the aggression the pack needs. Stander should be getting considered at 6 as well, starting Faletau and Stander in the same back row should be an aim before the first test.

No9 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Wonder if we will get a captain from the other 3 nations this tour.

Was only thinking this myself a few minutes ago....

We do need another player to step up and take on Captain duty, maybe Laidlaw, Best or even Haskell, as we need to make sure the mid-week team has a consistent captain. Pointless giving it to those who will def feature in the tests...

The schedule makes a consistent midweek team impossible. For it to be possible, Gatland would have to have selected his test team before the tour started. Even if he has, there aren't enough games, and the decision to give everyone a start over the first 3 games (coupled with the availability issues from the domestic season) makes it impossible to consistently differentiate between "test" and "midweek team".

For that reason, it's nonsensical to suggest that there could be a consistent captain. Pick the team, then pick the best man for the job. AWJ is Wales captain, it seems sensible. His nationality should have nothing to do with it.

cascough wrote:For that reason, it's nonsensical to suggest that there could be a consistent captain. Pick the team, then pick the best man for the job. AWJ is Wales captain, it seems sensible. His nationality should have nothing to do with it.

I agree in isolation. But when you get every 50/50 call in selection, then the first three captains, after finishing 5th and being ranked 8th in the world with a leadership team that were questioned in the 6 Nations it doesn't feel right. But nevermind, it's a good team.

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:For that reason, it's nonsensical to suggest that there could be a consistent captain. Pick the team, then pick the best man for the job. AWJ is Wales captain, it seems sensible. His nationality should have nothing to do with it.

I agree in isolation. But when you get every 50/50 call in selection, then the first three captains, after finishing 5th and being ranked 8th in the world with a leadership team that were questioned in the 6 Nations it doesn't feel right. But nevermind, it's a good team.

At this stage the squad selection is irrelevant, insomuch as it can't be changed. Having being selected, if those guys are the best for the captaincy, it's as simple as that. Them being Welsh has nothing to do with it. Now you may have picked other captains, but you'd have a hard time trying to make out that there aren't good reasons why they have been picked.

SW - Tour captain
KO - Only club captain in the 15
AWJ - Only national team captain in the 15

Even if we scrutinize the individuals' tour selection, although many wouldn't have picked so many Welsh, are those 3 individuals really left field picks?

SW - nailed on
KO - one of Wales' better performers
AWJ - doesn't seem daft that he's taken as one of 5 locks

king_carlos wrote:I think Lawes has been the pick of the locks and Itoje probably second. Lawes has been the only to put a particularly impressive performance in though. Itoje was solid but little more. AWJ and Henderson were very poor as has been discussed.

If AWJ struggles as much for match sharpness tomorrow then he shouldn't make the side for the Maori game. Especially with Warburton so short of gametime the 'first choice' pack can't afford to have two guys that short of match fitness.

With so many good flankers on tour I wouldn't want Itoje being looked at as a 6. Tipuric has had a great season, O'Brien is a fantastic player in form and O'Mahony has the aggression the pack needs. Stander should be getting considered at 6 as well, starting Faletau and Stander in the same back row should be an aim before the first test.

Yes Stander and Faletau in the same back-row is also something I'd like to see. Gats is an honest man, it's likely that each lock will get a test start at some point over the three tests.

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:For that reason, it's nonsensical to suggest that there could be a consistent captain. Pick the team, then pick the best man for the job. AWJ is Wales captain, it seems sensible. His nationality should have nothing to do with it.

I agree in isolation. But when you get every 50/50 call in selection, then the first three captains, after finishing 5th and being ranked 8th in the world with a leadership team that were questioned in the 6 Nations it doesn't feel right. But nevermind, it's a good team.

AWJ also captained the Lions to victory, but that seems to be swept aside by all you English for some odd reason. AWJ wasn't responsible for how Wales performed in the 6N, that would be someone else in the touring party.

Would you want to see constant rotation of the locks or is that what you think Gatland will do?

mikey_dragon wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:For that reason, it's nonsensical to suggest that there could be a consistent captain. Pick the team, then pick the best man for the job. AWJ is Wales captain, it seems sensible. His nationality should have nothing to do with it.

I agree in isolation. But when you get every 50/50 call in selection, then the first three captains, after finishing 5th and being ranked 8th in the world with a leadership team that were questioned in the 6 Nations it doesn't feel right. But nevermind, it's a good team.

AWJ also captained the Lions to victory, but that seems to be swept aside by all you English for some odd reason. AWJ wasn't responsible for how Wales performed in the 6N, that would be someone else in the touring party.

Woah woah! Some of us just think a lion is a lion, thank you very much.

Whats with all the English bashing?

We are all Lions but its clear some players are not match fit or in form, just so happens its the same players and coach who finished 5th in the 6Nations. That's a FACT that we can not hide from?

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ also captained the Lions to victory, but that seems to be swept aside by all you English for some odd reason. AWJ wasn't responsible for how Wales performed in the 6N, that would be someone else in the touring party.

And in 4 years in the next tour he will still have captained the Lions to victory, but that doesn't mean he should get picked. There's a reason you're focusing on 4 year old performances. Happy to drop it though...

Scottrf wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ also captained the Lions to victory, but that seems to be swept aside by all you English for some odd reason. AWJ wasn't responsible for how Wales performed in the 6N, that would be someone else in the touring party.

And in 4 years in the next tour he will still have captained the Lions to victory, but that doesn't mean he should get picked. There's a reason you're focusing on 4 year old performances. Happy to drop it though...

Of course not as he'll be retired by then, what a dumb thing to say.

He might hang on, as his been hanging on for the last 4 years.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would you want to see constant rotation of the locks or is that what you think Gatland will do?

I think it's what Gatland might do. On the previous tour we didn't really have a few good locks at our disposal so the test partnership was set in stone pretty much. It's something I'd like to see even if Gats disagrees. I think he possibly sees Itoje as a certainty to start.

TightHEAD wrote:Whats with all the English bashing?

We are all Lions but its clear some players are not match fit or in form, just so happens its the same players and coach who finished 5th in the 6Nations. That's a FACT that we can not hide from?

Has HERSH ever posted anything remotely funny? All I remember from 606 is the same repetitive bull every week. Nothing has changed it seems. Sad.

Eh?

I think he should stick with a pairing if it does work. Really don't know who he'll go with. Will he go with form or past achievement as you suggest? Don't know.

It's hard to separate Kruis and Itoje after all their games together for Sarries and England, but Lawes is in fine form too. I guess we'll have a better idea after tomorrow's game.

In all honesty, I do not give a toss where the Captains come from, I just want the Lions to perform and win. Nationality means nothing to me on a Lions tour.

Gatland is a Lions winning coach with a lot of experience and has been very successful at club and International level but it is a very difficult job to get players from 4 separate nations who play 4 different styles to play 1 distinctive style and win.

The club side in NZ are incredibly strong and would run many fully settled international sides close.

eirebilly wrote:In all honesty, I do not give a toss where the Captains come from, I just want the Lions to perform and win. Nationality means nothing to me on a Lions tour.

Gatland is a Lions winning coach with a lot of experience and has been very successful at club and International level but it is a very difficult job to get players from 4 separate nations who play 4 different styles to play 1 distinctive style and win.

The club side in NZ are incredibly strong and would run many fully settled international sides close.

You don't fancy 'OUR' chances then?

TightHEAD wrote:

eirebilly wrote:In all honesty, I do not give a toss where the Captains come from, I just want the Lions to perform and win. Nationality means nothing to me on a Lions tour.

Gatland is a Lions winning coach with a lot of experience and has been very successful at club and International level but it is a very difficult job to get players from 4 separate nations who play 4 different styles to play 1 distinctive style and win.

The club side in NZ are incredibly strong and would run many fully settled international sides close.

You don't fancy 'OUR' chances then?

Not overly confident but I do believe that the Lions will get better so not writing them off.

eirebilly wrote:In all honesty, I do not give a toss where the Captains come from, I just want the Lions to perform and win. Nationality means nothing to me on a Lions tour.

Do you think the name should have stayed as 'the British Lions' then in honour of tradition?

Next tour I want the squad together a lot earlier and I want us to play a more attractive game to entertain the fans, so far it has been clear the squad are very disjointed and lack a basic togetherness and haven't bought into the game plan being deployed by the coaches.

The Great Aukster wrote:

eirebilly wrote:In all honesty, I do not give a toss where the Captains come from, I just want the Lions to perform and win. Nationality means nothing to me on a Lions tour.

Do you think the name should have stayed as 'the British Lions' then in honour of tradition?

I really do not care if I may be honest, I see it as a sporting event not a nationalistic or naming event.

In 2005 we had 7 wins from 11 games with +108 points difference overall.

Potentially that tour will now be regarded as a success when this one is done.

Scraping the barrel if you think warm up game results matter.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scraping the barrel if you think warm up game results matter.

Will be all we can cling to in probability.

2005 squad won every midweek game

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scraping the barrel if you think warm up game results matter.

I discounted the draw in Cardiff vs the Argies 4th team, also you sound like Lions management with that talk.

Just heard the GE results, well done Britain!
Oh well I need to find another bar that is open. cheers

At least its match day here. LIONS LIONS LIONS........

Why are you pretending to be in nz?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why are you pretending to be in nz?

Why aren't you in NZ?

Life demands I can't drop everything for a month away. Why are you pretending to be there?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Life demands I can't drop everything for a month away. Why are you pretending to be there?

Same reason he pretends to watch rugby - for attention.

Gwlad wrote:

EST wrote:Looking at that team, i'm struck by how reliant we are on Farrell.  Still, if he can create space for our outside backs, then we should be competitive.

As we should be since he is the 10.

5 pts for your observational skills, I would never have guessed he was the starting 10 without your input.

My comment reflected the lack of creativity we have shown in the previous two games. Of course it is only the first two games, however Biggar is currently injured and Sexton has been a shadow of his former self. Secondly, other teams/tactics bring other players into decision making positions - either from 12 or 15, not something you could say looking at that Lions team. It all falls on Farrells shoulders.

EST wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

EST wrote:Looking at that team, i'm struck by how reliant we are on Farrell.  Still, if he can create space for our outside backs, then we should be competitive.

As we should be since he is the 10.

5 pts for your observational skills, I would never have guessed he was the starting 10 without your input.

My comment reflected the lack of creativity we have shown in the previous two games.  Of course it is only the first two games, however Biggar is currently injured and Sexton has been a shadow of his former self.  Secondly, other teams/tactics bring other players into decision making positions - either from 12 or 15, not something you could say looking at that Lions team.  It all falls on Farrells shoulders.

Going to slightly disagree with you here EST. I thought that the Lions looked better in attack when Biggar was on against the Blues. It is a real shame he got injured as it forces Sexton to take part in his 3rd game in a row which I feel is wrong as he still looks to be carrying an injury (probably why he looks well out of form).

Farrell is by far the best 10 on tour but if I were Gatland, I would be looking to call up another 10 very soon if Biggar looks to be out for a few weeks. Ford would be the obvious choice but I honestly feel that Russell would do well in NZ.

Biggar was playing well before being injured so the idea its all down to Farrell is rubbish.

Sexton is done, whether temporarily or not remains to be seen. Ford would get eaten alive in NZ, Russell the best option but I expect Bigger to be fine

What was Biggars injury? Agreed he looked pretty good up until that point.

I'd like to see Russel picked if we do need another.

Russell, Farrel, JJ seems like a good backline to me.

Mix with Ford and Russell, I like Russell a lot but hasn't really had his best season, his running game would work well. Ford's passing game would be very handy too.

But why look for someone outside of Farrell at the minute? Who are the test starting centres - Henshaw and Davies or Joseph done enough.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Life demands I can't drop everything for a month away. Why are you pretending to be there?

Same reason he pretends to watch rugby - for attention.

Yeah why can't he just go to the local park for that.

Interesting listening to the podcast with Matt Dawson and Andrew Mehrtens. Dawson said categorically that he would NOT call up Ford. He said maybe his time might be right for the next Lions tour but he said that NZ would not be a good place for Ford at the moment, or words to that effect. He was implying that he would have a torrid time out there.

Griff wrote:Interesting listening to the podcast with Matt Dawson and Andrew Mehrtens. Dawson said categorically that he would NOT call up Ford. He said maybe his time might be right for the next Lions tour but he said that NZ would not be a good place for Ford at the moment, or words to that effect. He was implying that he would have a torrid time out there.

Perhaps, but midweek games would be a good place for him to grow. I'm not sold on Ford yet I'll admit, could be just a flash in the pan, could be a star like Cruden (similar size) was/is. Right now I'd say he's in good enough form and although at times he struggled in Aus he made it through that series contributing well to the whitewash.

True, Mikey. I definitely think they should fly someone out. There's no limit on squad size is there (apart from cost)? If not, it wouldn't hurt to fly a 10 out as we're already looking thin on the ground. Plus, it will take a while to get over the jet lag (alledegedly ) so the last thing we want is to lose Farrell and have to fly over a 10 straight into a game as he steps off the plane.

Ford is only as good as the game plan, Gatland wouldn't know how to use him so I really hope Ford doesn't go plus he has a job to do for England this summer.

Long day ahead until kick off, not keen on this evening kick offs, you guys should get up earlier to watch the Tour.

What an incredibly pivotal game this is. What are the Lions chances?

I think you have to conclude that the odds are against them, and yet why can't they win, give it a go and raise their game to a height not seen since Chicago.

Not far away now and the Lions are about to face the best side in NZ rugby at the moment and believe me, this is a very good side. There aren't as many star names like Barrett or the Smiths but across the entire 23 there are few weaknesses.

They have the best pack in NZ and have won matches they probably should have lost, and are practised, and as yet unbeaten.

With the Lions combinations not clearly obvious the Lions concept is going to come under the heat with this match, the contrast doesn't get much more stark in terms of prep for the match.

In short, without established combinations individuals are going to have to stand up, big time. They're going to need at least five or six players playing THE best rugby of their careers to have a chance.

So far, not one Lion has achieved that in the two matches to date. The ability to attack the gain line, to put players through or around is almost benign so far.

Going through the motions, doing the basics ain't going to be enough here, the Saders will attack with everything they've got, from everywhere so a good defence over 80 is an understatement.

If Farrell and Murray have poor games, I'd expect a 20-25 point win to the Saders, that's how tough this is going to be.

I can't wait for us to try to maul you to death now Taylorman. That'll teach you.

Morning all. Looking forward to this match but very nervous at the same time. This could be a turning point in the tour.

yappysnap wrote:I can't wait for us to try to maul you to death now Taylorman. That'll teach you.

Not really, just stating the obvious. Anyway, being a Blues fan it wouldn't look too bad with an L sitting below our W on the tour list for all eternity