NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July

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NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  
1 July 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
WESTPAC Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington

Live on Sky Sports HD

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

39 Played 39
30 Won 6
3 Drawn 3
6 Lost 30
664 Points 360

B. Recent Form

24 June 2017
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 15 to New Zealand

9 July 2005 
Eden Park, Auckland 
38 – 19 to New Zealand 

2 July 2005 
Westpac Stadium, Wellington 
48 – 18 to New Zealand

25 June 2005 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
21 – 3 to New Zealand

3 July 1993 
Eden Park, Auckland 
30 – 13 to New Zealand 

26 June 1993 
Athletic Park, Wellington 
7 – 20 to British & Irish Lions

12 June 1993 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
20 – 18 to New Zealand

16 July 1983 
Eden Park, Auckland 
38 – 6 to New Zealand

2 July 1983 
Carisbrook, Dunedin 
15 – 8 to New Zealand

18 June 1983 
Athletic Park (Wellington), Wellington 
9 – 0 to New Zealand

4 June 1983 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
16 – 12 to New Zealand

C. TEAMS:

NEW ZEALAND

[tbc]

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  

[tbc]

eirebilly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Agree with that. Warburton is a very good player but not a captain.

You criticise Warburton for not galvanising his troops, then champion Best who must be one of the meekest rugby players around.

Best is actually an excellent Captain (once you get passed his voice ). He is also one of the best scrummaging hookers in rugby. People say his line out is weak but I do not see it as being weak, he is exactly the player to get the Lions more parity in the scrum.

I think that Warburton a very good squad captain but not necessarily the best on field captain. For me, Farrell and Sexton are the two best leaders in the test squad.

For me Warburton was made captain to be really nice at pressers. He plays this role really well. He is a very level headed, mannerly guy. Warburton will never cause any controversy. Sponsors wet dream. Not a good on field captain though.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Agree with that. Warburton is a very good player but not a captain.

You criticise Warburton for not galvanising his troops, then champion Best who must be one of the meekest rugby players around.

Haha Best, meek? WTF. Watch any Ireland game he is well able to rally his troops, make key decisions and lead from the front. He has also done a very good job captaining the Lions on two occasions. Meek definitely isnt the right word.

It's a shame he can't hit a barn door with his arrows though.

eirebilly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Agree with that. Warburton is a very good player but not a captain.

You criticise Warburton for not galvanising his troops, then champion Best who must be one of the meekest rugby players around.

Best is actually an excellent Captain (once you get passed his voice ). He is also one of the best scrummaging hookers in rugby. People say his line out is weak but I do not see it as being weak, he is exactly the player to get the Lions more parity in the scrum.

I think that Warburton a very good squad captain but not necessarily the best on field captain. For me, Farrell and Sexton are the two best leaders in the test squad.

Wasn't really saying he wasn't but IMO all of the criticism of Warburton not being vocal, abrasive enough etc can be applied to him.

Best was basically apologising to the referee for talking to him the other day and getting ignored. The only controversy he's involved in has been when he's been punched by Hartley?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Agree with that. Warburton is a very good player but not a captain.

You criticise Warburton for not galvanising his troops, then champion Best who must be one of the meekest rugby players around.

Haha Best, meek? WTF. Watch any Ireland game he is well able to rally his troops, make key decisions and lead from the front. He has also done a very good job captaining the Lions on two occasions. Meek definitely isnt the right word.

It's a shame he can't hit a barn door with his arrows though.

Id say he missed one throw per match he played in on this tour. Jamie George missed a throw on Saturday himself.

Ireland dominated England in the Lineout in this years six nations too.

Ireland won 13/14 on own throw and England won 9/11 on own throw.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Id say he missed one throw per match he played in on this tour. Jamie George missed a throw on Saturday himself.

Ireland dominated England in the Lineout in this years six nations too.

Ireland won 13/14 on own throw and England won 9/11 on own throw.

Confirmation bias is impossible to overcome.

Best is a liabilty in the lineout.

He reminds me on this tour of Tom Youngs for England. His might nail 10/10 but you always expect him to mess one up. He makes jumpers really work for the ball too which doesn't show in the stats. Ireland are lucky they have world class jumpers to counter Best's issue and allow him to showcase his impressive work around the park.

Best didn't miss a throw in the last game, I actually think that he should start or bench the next game.
Jamie George had a great game, but if we are wanting to slow down the break down o steal turn over ball Best is a great addition.

I'm not saying George should be dropped, but a horses of courses approach and Best starting on on bench may be the best horse for this course.

Also I think Gatland, should be prepared to use all his forward subs, even going for a 6-2 on the bench. Its the forwards that will win this game, and if they can work for 60 mins and fresh players come in we have a chance, Imagine Best/Owens, POM/Tipuric, Santander, Kruis/Lawes and Henderson coming on after 60 mins?

Kingshu wrote:Best didn't miss a throw in the last game, I actually think that he should start or bench the next game.
Jamie George had a great game, but if we are wanting to slow down the break down o steal turn over ball Best is a great addition.

I'm not saying George should be dropped, but a horses of courses approach and Best starting on on bench may be the best horse for this course.

Also I think Gatland, should be prepared to use all his forward subs, even going for a 6-2 on the bench. Its the forwards that will win this game, and if they can work for 60 mins and fresh players come in we have a chance, Imagine Best/Owens, POM/Tipuric, Santander, Kruis/Lawes and Henderson coming on after 60 mins?

You'd bank on him making an impact

BamBam wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Best didn't miss a throw in the last game, I actually think that he should start or bench the next game.
Jamie George had a great game, but if we are wanting to slow down the break down o steal turn over ball Best is a great addition.

I'm not saying George should be dropped, but a horses of courses approach and Best starting on on bench may be the best horse for this course.

Also I think Gatland, should be prepared to use all his forward subs, even going for a 6-2 on the bench. Its the forwards that will win this game, and if they can work for 60 mins and fresh players come in we have a chance, Imagine Best/Owens, POM/Tipuric, Santander, Kruis/Lawes and Henderson coming on after 60 mins?

You'd bank on him making an impact

lol auto correct, you could put your mortgage on it.

Agree Best is strong at the breakdown.

Kingshu wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Best didn't miss a throw in the last game, I actually think that he should start or bench the next game.
Jamie George had a great game, but if we are wanting to slow down the break down o steal turn over ball Best is a great addition.

I'm not saying George should be dropped, but a horses of courses approach and Best starting on on bench may be the best horse for this course.

Also I think Gatland, should be prepared to use all his forward subs, even going for a 6-2 on the bench. Its the forwards that will win this game, and if they can work for 60 mins and fresh players come in we have a chance, Imagine Best/Owens, POM/Tipuric, Santander, Kruis/Lawes and Henderson coming on after 60 mins?

You'd bank on him making an impact

lol auto correct, you could put your mortgage on it.

Well he was a project player, so they invested a lot in him.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Best didn't miss a throw in the last game, I actually think that he should start or bench the next game.
Jamie George had a great game, but if we are wanting to slow down the break down o steal turn over ball Best is a great addition.

I'm not saying George should be dropped, but a horses of courses approach and Best starting on on bench may be the best horse for this course.

Also I think Gatland, should be prepared to use all his forward subs, even going for a 6-2 on the bench. Its the forwards that will win this game, and if they can work for 60 mins and fresh players come in we have a chance, Imagine Best/Owens, POM/Tipuric, Santander, Kruis/Lawes and Henderson coming on after 60 mins?

You'd bank on him making an impact

lol auto correct, you could put your mortgage on it.

Well he was a project player, so they invested a lot in him.

I believe someone from the IRFU went to SA to cheque him out. There was lot of interest and they wanted to take him on loan! I also hear he likes beer but prefers cans overdraft.

Sin é wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Murray and Itoje really stepped up last 20 min and we're both great in that time. I am disappointed that there seemed to be no collective thought after the red as to what to do. Kicking was poorly used especially with Murray Sexton Farrell and Daly all there. I'd agree vunipola should be on the bench.  It's where's he's most effective anyway.

The New Zealand Herald gave Itoje a 4 in their Player Ratings:

4. Maro Itoje - 4
Looked static at times and dropped ball on attack early. Caught offside in 44th minute as he struggled to acclimatise.

If Gatland wanted to get more out of Murray's kicking game he should use more of the Irish players who are very good at reclaiming those kicks.

Apparently they didn't.....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11884837

Maro Itoje 9

Gobbled up All Black re-starts, plenty of runs, tackled his heart out. Has the X-factor.

Not apparent about the 4 rating - here is the link

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11884720

I thought he was much closer to 4 than 9. I still think he's England's third or fourth best lock at the moment only. He's still a mile behind Retallick and Whitelock, but I guess there's still big room for improvement, he's got a great work rate.

Griff wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Best didn't miss a throw in the last game, I actually think that he should start or bench the next game.
Jamie George had a great game, but if we are wanting to slow down the break down o steal turn over ball Best is a great addition.

I'm not saying George should be dropped, but a horses of courses approach and Best starting on on bench may be the best horse for this course.

Also I think Gatland, should be prepared to use all his forward subs, even going for a 6-2 on the bench. Its the forwards that will win this game, and if they can work for 60 mins and fresh players come in we have a chance, Imagine Best/Owens, POM/Tipuric, Santander, Kruis/Lawes and Henderson coming on after 60 mins?

You'd bank on him making an impact

lol auto correct, you could put your mortgage on it.

Well he was a project player, so they invested a lot in him.

I believe someone from the IRFU went to SA to cheque him out. There was lot of interest and they wanted to take him on loan! I also hear he likes beer but prefers cans overdraft.

no need for face palm, it made me laugh

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Id say he missed one throw per match he played in on this tour. Jamie George missed a throw on Saturday himself.

Ireland dominated England in the Lineout in this years six nations too.

Ireland won 13/14 on own throw and England won 9/11 on own throw.

Confirmation bias is impossible to overcome.

Confirmation bias works both ways in a debate as to whether Best is a good lineout thrower on a forum so fairly pointless comment.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Id say he missed one throw per match he played in on this tour. Jamie George missed a throw on Saturday himself.

Ireland dominated England in the Lineout in this years six nations too.

Ireland won 13/14 on own throw and England won 9/11 on own throw.

Confirmation bias is impossible to overcome.

Confirmation bias works both ways in a debate as to whether Best is a good lineout thrower on a forum so fairly pointless comment.

Was supporting Best but nevermind

You don't need stats to see that Best can be a poor thrower, it's just always been a problem for him and why he's nowhere near the test side.

Is Colin Farrell the worst AB of all time?

https://youtu.be/62NtCKDxjTw

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You don't need stats to see that Best can be a poor thrower, it's just always been a problem for him and why he's nowhere near the test side.

And yet he didnt miss a throw in his last match but George did.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Is Colin Farrell the worst AB of all time?

https://youtu.be/62NtCKDxjTw

Ha ha yes I watched his debut and AB career end all in two tests after watching him play for Suburbs and Auckland where he was actually a very good player, good with ball in hand and carried both those sides to some good wins from Fullback.

But what a nightmare debut and even worse second chance. Couldn't do a thing right, sooo out of character. Seemed every kick went wrong, every catch dropped and it was so bad it was hilarious, especially to non Aucklanders. Felt sorry for him actually, was a very good talent before that.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Is Colin Farrell the worst AB of all time?

https://youtu.be/62NtCKDxjTw

Looks better under the high ball than Williams.

Best can be poor throwing in, but so can Owens and George has been ordinary in open play apart from his one run in the last Test. At least all of them can take comfort that they have been better than Codie Taylor who has been barely club standard.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You don't need stats to see that Best can be a poor thrower, it's just always been a problem for him and why he's nowhere near the test side.

And yet he didnt miss a throw in his last match but George did.

Zero context in that argument. George faced perhaps the best lineout defence in world rugby currently in the AB's. Best was up against the Hurricanes......

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Is Colin Farrell the worst AB of all time?

https://youtu.be/62NtCKDxjTw

Robert Downey Jr was a pretty average all black

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You don't need stats to see that Best can be a poor thrower, it's just always been a problem for him and why he's nowhere near the test side.

And yet he didnt miss a throw in his last match but George did.

Zero context in that argument. George faced perhaps the best lineout defence in world rugby currently in the AB's. Best was up against the Hurricanes......

What is the context to Best out throwing the England hookers in the six nations match in Dublin? Or in general how he probably hasn't missed many more throws than any hooker on tour?

Best s throwing isn't as good as Hartley or Georges.

The third test is perfect for Warrenball. ABs are creaking, Beauden Balls has been very quiet and his kicking has got worse. The ABs are now missing some really game breaking players:

Dane Coles
Sonny Bill (Billy Son) Williams
Ben Smith
Julian Savea (form)

Key again to winning in Eden park is slow the ball down. If Aaron Smith gets quick ball then forget about it.

Warrenball would give the Lions more control, dictate the pace more, grind them down and frustrate the ABs. When they get frustrated they lose their discipline like in Dublin.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You don't need stats to see that Best can be a poor thrower, it's just always been a problem for him and why he's nowhere near the test side.

And yet he didnt miss a throw in his last match but George did.

Zero context in that argument. George faced perhaps the best lineout defence in world rugby currently in the AB's. Best was up against the Hurricanes......

What is the context to Best out throwing the England hookers in the six nations match in Dublin? Or in general how he probably hasn't missed many more throws than any hooker on tour?

You said Best didn't miss a throw the last game (against the Hurricanes) and that George missed one last game (against the AB's). If they both played against similar levels they would be some context but there isn't.

Move back to warren ball get beat.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Can't imagine "Daddy" (interesting that's how Bluster refers to international rugby coaches) would have wanted a past it has been in the second row ruining his blitz defence, so probably not that much influence

I would not have picked AWJ. So why you are using that as a stick to beat me with is your issue.

Now, daddy picking his blue eyed boy, that is something we can talk about.

Don't worry son, you might not be doing to well at your favoured position, but daddy will sort something out for you.

Just to put to bed that I made this quote up.