Argentina vs England, 2nd test

Match Details

Venue: Estadio Brigadier Estanislao López, Santa Fe
Date: Saturday 17th June
Time: 20:15 BST
TV: BBC2



Officials

Referee - John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant 1 - Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2 - Egon Seconds (South Africa)
TMO - Aaron Paterson (New Zealand)


Teams

Argentina
15 Joaquin Tuculet, 14 Ramiro Moyano, 13 Matias Orlando, 12 Jeronimo de la Fuente, 11 Emiliano Boffelli, 10 Nicolas Sanchez, 9 Martín Landajo, 8 Juan Manuel Leguizamon, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 4 Matias Alemanno, 3 Enrique Pieretto, 2 Agustín Creevy (captain), 1 Lucas Noguera Paz.
Replacements: 16 Julian Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Ramiro Herrera, 19 Guido Petti, 20 Tomas Lezana, 21 Gonzalo Bertranou, 22 Juan Martin Hernández, 23 Matias Moroni.

England

World Rugby wrote:Referee Johnny Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant 1 Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2 Egon Seconds (South Africa)
TMO Aaron Paterson (New Zealand)

Johnny?!?!?

Interested to see what changes Eddie makes. He likes continuity, and it would be a real boost if they could seal the series - however this is a chance to look at other players "in the middle" so to speak.

Since the last thread has served it's purpose and gone off on a tangent, I thought I'd set up the new match thread to discussion selection for this one.

Mod's, please feel free to update any details as they come in, or I will when I get a chance.

Teams will probably be announced tomorrow, but what is everyone hoping for from England? Do we have any fitness news over Chris Robshaw, Ben Curry or Sam Underhill?

Possible match day 23:
Genge, Hartley (C), Collier, Launchbury, Ewels, Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes, Care, Ford, May, Francis, Slade, Solomona, Brown.
Singleton, Mullan, Williams, Isiekwe, Ben Curry, Maunder, Lozowski, Earle.

LondonTiger wrote:

World Rugby wrote:Referee Johnny Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant 1 Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2 Egon Seconds (South Africa)
TMO Aaron Paterson (New Zealand)

Johnny?!?!?

Thanks, could only find the referee. Wasn't sure if it would be the same team, suppose it doesn't make sense flying a new set out.

I've never heard him referred to as Johnny either!

Id like to see...

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Williams / Collier
4 Launchbury
5 Ewels
6 Wilson
7 Underhill
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Francis
13 Slade
14 Solomona
15 Lozowski

Would like to Collier given the start this time around. Other than that, I would keep it the same. Although imagine there might be some difference in the midfield.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id like to see...

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Williams / Collier
4 Launchbury
5 Ewels
6 Wilson
7 Underhill
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Francis
13 Slade
14 Solomona
15 Lozowski

I'd be happy to see that to be honest.

As long as we're solid defensively in the backs...there would be fireworks in attack

Quite a turn around from donny knights to England for francis.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quite a turn around from donny knights to England for francis.

Good to see Saints developing English talent

Yup. Credit where it's due.

No 7 & 1/2 not that uncommon in rugby now.

I think one of the biggest rises has been Genge. Not on England age group radar and from a move to Bristol to Leicester, he's now starting for England.

This current England squad has representation from so many different clubs. Not dominated by 1 or 2 clubs.

Very true. Just that donny play just outside the village I live in so a bit more unusual for me. Paul hill was but a youth player so the 1st guy I've watched play at Castle Park to make the full albeit with all the absentees.

Discovered by chance that I went to primary school with Piers Francis, great to see him on the international stage

These are the guys who didnt feature in the first test

Tommy Taylor
Nick Schonert
Nick Isiekwe
Ben Curry
Chris Robshaw
Sam Underhill
Ollie Devoto
Sam James
Harry Mallinder
Joe Cokanasiga
Nathan Earle

Of those, I'd expect Robshaw and Underhill to come back in if fit, with Ben Curry replacing Tom in the 23

Who else would you like to see get a go? I'd be keen to see how Earle goes and one of James/Devoto could do as a more powerful centre option. I'd hope Isiekwe would get off the bench this week too (although I might have missed him playing last week)

LondonTiger wrote:

World Rugby wrote:Referee Johnny Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant 1 Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2 Egon Seconds (South Africa)
TMO Aaron Paterson (New Zealand)

Johnny?!?!?

Yeah but best name for a 2nd assistant ever

BamBam wrote:These are the guys who didnt feature in the first test

Tommy Taylor
Nick Schonert
Nick Isiekwe
Ben Curry
Chris Robshaw
Sam Underhill
Ollie Devoto
Sam James
Harry Mallinder
Joe Cokanasiga
Nathan Earle

Of those, I'd expect Robshaw and Underhill to come back in if fit, with Ben Curry replacing Tom in the 23

Who else would you like to see get a go? I'd be keen to see how Earle and one of James/Devoto could do as a more powerful centre option. I'd hope Isiekwe would get off the bench this week too (although I might have missed him playing last week)

I thought Isiekwe did - Singleton was the only unused sub. He'll be on the bench again regardless because we only have 3 locks.

Surprised Singleton benched ahead of Taylor, but considering the numbers of front rows we're missing, I don't think it's strictly necessary to have a look at Taylor and Schonert.

If Robshaw, Underhill and Ben Curry are fit, they might all come into the starting 23 as you suggest for Wilson, Tom Curry and Armand. Not that those guys didn't play well, but it allows us to have a look at Underhill and Ben Curry, while Robshaw gives us a bit more experience.

Mallinder and Cokanasiga are two I'm excited by, but are probably both a bit raw even for this series. I'd have Earle into the 23 for Yarde, with Solomona starting.

I've never been wowed by Devoto and haven't seen much of James, so I'm happy to start with the same 10/12/13 as last week, or rotate the impressive Piers Francis in for Lozowski. All 4 played well.

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2 not that uncommon in rugby now.

I think one of the biggest rises has been Genge. Not on England age group radar and from a move to Bristol to Leicester, he's now starting for England.

This current England squad has representation from so many different clubs. Not dominated by 1 or 2 clubs.

He played for the under 20s in 2015.

The current England squad has representation form all over the Jeff and beyond because its missing half the senior squad. Im not sure how much that really means, although even a proper England side does have better spread than the days when Bath or Wasps used to supply half the first team. That said we showed in a post a while back that Saracens could put together a pretty convincing England side on their own....certainly one that would match up against this second string.

I would have thought Jones will stick with a similar "core" and maybe switch a few, but not a huge amount.

For example if Robshaw is not fully fit and firing...then keep Wilson in as a similar style of player. You know what Robshaw gives don't risk him for one meaningless game...give Wilson another run out.

I forgot Sam James was there. I'd maybe look to give him a game.

But I wouldn't look to change too much. Young Curry has had two good games...Baa Baas and first test v Argentina...so id look to Underhill or the other Curry to se how they go.

BamBam wrote:These are the guys who didnt feature in the first test

Tommy Taylor
Nick Schonert
Nick Isiekwe
Ben Curry
Chris Robshaw
Sam Underhill
Ollie Devoto
Sam James
Harry Mallinder
Joe Cokanasiga
Nathan Earle

Of those, I'd expect Robshaw and Underhill to come back in if fit, with Ben Curry replacing Tom in the 23

Who else would you like to see get a go? I'd be keen to see how Earle goes and one of James/Devoto could do as a more powerful centre option. I'd hope Isiekwe would get off the bench this week too (although I might have missed him playing last week)

Isiekwe played, Schonert was replaced by Jamal Ford-Robinson and Taylor's injury incurred in the game against Barbarians meant Singleton replaced the injured LCD.

My team would be:

1) Genge
2) Hartley
3) Collier
4) Launchbury
5) Ewells
6) Wilson
7) Underhill (if fit) or Tom Curry again
8) Hughes
9) Care
10) Ford
11) May
12) James
13) Slade
14) ***********
15) Brown (unless Jones views Loz as a long term option)


16) Singleton (only other hooker)
17) Mullan
18) Williams
19) Isisekwe
20) Either Curry
21) Maunder
22) Loz or Francis (dependent on FB)
23) *************



**************With the amount of inexperience in teh team, I would be inclined to stick with Yarde, but I woudl be interested to see what Earle can do. Woudl perhaps be tempted to start Earle with Solomona on teh bench (still do not want him in the team for no-playing reasons - but he is capped now, so I have to lump it)

Agree Lt, not happy about him or Hughes playing for non playing reasons but they're capped so we have ti accept they'll play lots.

At least we aren't going down the route of 'project' players like the Irish have, whilst I tend to agree you on the non playing reasons if they have both done their residency then Jones would be silly not to pick them.

Would like to see Curry keep his place, deserves it and great way to give him even more experience and then either his brother or Underhill from the bench. Give James a go at no13, but I'd just be tempted to give Francis a start, he looked excellent when he came off the bench.

Sounds as though we have Robshaw back as captain (woohoo), with Curry on the other flank and Piers Francis starting as inside centre. Four teenagers are meant to be on the bench as well.

Why would he be captain?

Telegraph is saying Robshaw and Francis in and maybe Underhill in for Curry as well.

Also says Launchbury, Tom Curry and Hughes sat out contact training, but it's all thought to be precautionary.

Oh hang on, Hartley is captain, got confused when he was named as England captain for BaaBaas.

robbo277 wrote:Telegraph is saying Robshaw and Francis in and maybe Underhill in for Curry as well.

Also says Launchbury, Tom Curry and Hughes sat out contact training, but it's all thought to be precautionary.

Piers Morgan not Francis.




Shortly after they had Anthony Joshua scoring a try for the Lions.

Scottrf wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Telegraph is saying Robshaw and Francis in and maybe Underhill in for Curry as well.

Also says Launchbury, Tom Curry and Hughes sat out contact training, but it's all thought to be precautionary.

Piers Morgan not Francis.




Shortly after they had Anthony Joshua scoring a try for the Lions.

If Piers Morgan was playing do you think they could bring back old style rucking just for this one game?

lostinwales wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Telegraph is saying Robshaw and Francis in and maybe Underhill in for Curry as well.

Also says Launchbury, Tom Curry and Hughes sat out contact training, but it's all thought to be precautionary.

Piers Morgan not Francis.




Shortly after they had Anthony Joshua scoring a try for the Lions.

If Piers Morgan was playing do you think they could bring back old style rucking just for this one game?

If he is I'm supporting Argentina.

Morgan is a Welsh surname. Surely he should be on the Lions tour? He's got to be better than AWJ...

Robshaw, Underhill and Francis start. Wilson and Lozowski to bench, Curry out fully.

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Williams
4 Launchbury
5 Ewels
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Francis
13 Slade
14 Yarde
15 Brown

16 Singleton 17 Mullan 18 Collier 19 Isiekwe 20 Wilson 21 Maunder 22 Lozowski 23 Solomona

Its clear that the flankers and number 12 / 13 are an issue for Jones that he's looking at....

As the telegraph predicted - albeit with Francis rather than Morgan (note, it's always the picture caption that's wrong, and I think that's normally the job of sub-editor, not the writer who should at least be clued up enough on rugby to get names right!)

I think we might be missing a chance to have a look at Ben Curry for 20 minutes, we've already seen Tom Curry and Mark Wilson impress, but a part of me would have rather had him on the bench.

No Cokanasiga or Earle either - although Earle obviously got his run against the Barbarians. Would have liked to have seen one of them get a little sniff at some game time as well.

Although for all the young players, I'm sure they'll be much better for the experience and will have a better idea of where they need to be.

robbo277 wrote:As the telegraph predicted - albeit with Francis rather than Morgan (note, it's always the picture caption that's wrong, and I think that's normally the job of sub-editor, not the writer who should at least be clued up enough on rugby to get names right!)

I think we might be missing a chance to have a look at Ben Curry for 20 minutes, we've already seen Tom Curry and Mark Wilson impress, but a part of me would have rather had him on the bench.

No Cokanasiga or Earle either - although Earle obviously got his run against the Barbarians. Would have liked to have seen one of them get a little sniff at some game time as well.

Although for all the young players, I'm sure they'll be much better for the experience and will have a better idea of where they need to be.

The sub-editor not only got the name wrong. Apparently, they cannot spell and do not know which words are proper nouns.

Consistency in selection will allow us to properly judge the incoming players at least. Really hope.underhill takes this chance to impress as I think despite tom curry s impressive games they're still a year to 18 months away from being fully ready. Hope to see a little more.of maunder as.it ll mean we're pretty comfortable.for 1 and offer us a glimpse of the future at a position I don't think we're close to being world class in. Hoping for another classy show from slade and another try or 2 from solomona.

It might have been interesting to see Earle on in place of Yarde, but I can understand why Yarde is there (queue Beshocked merry go round again)

Surprised Sam James hasn't had any time. I would have thought he'd be one Jones would definitely want a look at.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Consistency in selection will allow us to properly judge the incoming players at least. Really hope.underhill takes this chance to impress as I think despite tom curry s impressive games they're still a year to 18 months away from being fully ready. Hope to see a little more.of maunder as.it ll mean we're pretty comfortable.for 1 and offer us a glimpse of the future at a position I don't think we're close to being world class in. Hoping for another classy show from slade and another try or 2 from solomona.

Its an interesting one...I don't think he's looked out of place (even physically, he made a couple of BIG hits in the first test), however 18 is incredibly young to be out there and they do need to naturally mature physically. They could put another stone etc on in that time which is only going to help them.

Underhill however appears to be physically very strong and further down the line in development. This will be the first time ive actually seen him play so looking forward to seeing what all the fuss is about.

Yeah I just think when it comes to being a settled side not sure 2 3 or 4 games on ghe trot would be good gor him long term. He's good enough but not fully mature.

GeordieFalcon wrote:1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Williams
4 Launchbury
5 Ewels
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Francis
13 Slade
14 Yarde
15 Brown

16 Singleton 17 Mullan 18 Collier 19 Isiekwe 20 Wilson 21 Maunder 22 Lozowski 23 Solomona

Should be enough to beat Argentina. Most of the players I am most interested in are on the bench though.

Yarde shouldn't have been selected for the tour but now he has, he did enough to keep his place.

Yes I would like to have seen a start for Solomona or Earle but that's seemingly too risky for many.

Quite a conservative team though, should please many.  Development in some positions seemingly will have to wait for tougher and more crucial games.

beshocked wrote:.  Development in some positions seemingly will have to wait for tougher and more crucial games.

Like the weekly meaningful club games they get against better opposition?

I think most of us would agree that there are four positions that need to be addressed, 2,7,12,15.

It would seem that EJ agrees with two of those at least. At both 7 and 12 he has taken the chance to look at two options in these games, otherwise being fairly consistent in selection. This allows a genuine comparison that would have been denied by wholesale changes.

It is a shame we have been unable to see alternatives at 2 and15, but as has been discussed ad nauseum the realistic alternatives are not currently available.

LondonTiger wrote:I think most of us would agree that there are four positions that need to be addressed, 2,7,12,15.

It would seem that EJ agrees with two of those at least. At both 7 and 12 he has taken the chance to look at two options in these games, otherwise being fairly consistent in selection. This allows a genuine comparison that would have been denied by wholesale changes.

It is a shame we have been unable to see alternatives at 2 and15, but as has been discussed ad nauseum the realistic alternatives are not currently available.

Hit the nail on the head!

Not a huge number of changes to that Argentina squad, so hopefully the two teams can serve up a similar calibre of game with a similar result!

I think we'd all LOVE another game like that, but im not sure Eddie would.

Im sure he loved that first game and got into the spirit of it, but I suspect he'll be looking for far more structure this game.

Yes he'll be looking for a lot more control over the game in general.

YES!! Great to see try scoring machine Yarde in there again.

8 tries in 12 appearances.