Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

Stoke have spent 10 years in the premier league, they are bottom 3 and dumped out the cup by coventry. The perspy is that they are an established prem team, hughes has them shipping goals, not scoring and being certainties for relegation. They have spent big money on wimmer who has struggled, imbula who is out on loan and berahino who cant score, bojan is well paid and on the bench for alaves. Stoke fans have perspective, hughes had no clues. Surprised he stayed this long.

My family are potters!

[McLaren]

True, I am sure he won't suffer from the change.

[pedro]

I thougt there was consensus on here that DTs businesses were, or ought to be, on the verge of bankrupcy?

And it doesn’t matter how big his bank account is as capital gains taxes aren’t part of the tax reform AFAIK.

And FTR Buffett is a Democrat and has campaigned for Hillary - so it must all be a mistake from DT then?

[kwinigolfer]

I thougt there was consensus on here that DTs businesses were, or ought to be, on the verge of bankrupcy?

And it doesn’t matter how big his bank account is as capital gains taxes aren’t part of the tax reform AFAIK.

And FTR Buffett is a Democrat and has campaigned for Hillary - so it must all be a mistake from DT then?

Buffett would definitely not have voted for Drumpf - and I should have edited that it's his company that benefits to the tune of $29B.

Estate gains are defo a yuuuge part of the tax cut, so Drumpf's family gains on that to the max.

[raycastleunited]

I'm not sure why no one seems to have picked up on this. If a well trained, armed officer freezes, what's a petrified amateur gun owning paid a pittance teacher going to do in the same situation?

Trump is clearly a special.

I met a primary school teacher when I was on holiday in the US a few years ago. She was on $100k+.... American teachers do ok. And of course cost of living is typically cheaper as well compared to UK.

[pedro]

Estate gains are defo a yuuuge part of the tax cut, so Drumpf's family gains on that to the max.

Not if they’re run down businesses, close to bankrupcy or run by imbecils? No profit to pay tax from.

[pedro]

I'm not sure why no one seems to have picked up on this. If a well trained, armed officer freezes, what's a petrified amateur gun owning paid a pittance teacher going to do in the same situation?

Trump is clearly a special.

I met a primary school teacher when I was on holiday in the US a few years ago. She was on $100k+.... American teachers do ok. And of course cost of living is typically cheaper as well compared to UK.

100K is ok. Especially given the level of education in that country.
But how much should you earn to take a bullet for your pupils?

[kwinigolfer]

I'm not sure why no one seems to have picked up on this. If a well trained, armed officer freezes, what's a petrified amateur gun owning paid a pittance teacher going to do in the same situation?

Trump is clearly a special.

I met a primary school teacher when I was on holiday in the US a few years ago. She was on $100k+.... American teachers do ok. And of course cost of living is typically cheaper as well compared to UK.

100K is ok. Especially given the level of education in that country.
But how much should you earn to take a bullet for your pupils?

I can assure you not every teacher is likely to score $100K; my daughter is in her 5th year, with Masters in hand, teaching 14-y-o's, and makes $44K. Bet others get even less - education system nearly as broken as health care, (which is not to say some don't receive excellent education and/or healthcare).The haves and, many times as many, have-nots.

[JAS]

I'm not sure why no one seems to have picked up on this. If a well trained, armed officer freezes, what's a petrified amateur gun owning paid a pittance teacher going to do in the same situation?

Trump is clearly a special.

I met a primary school teacher when I was on holiday in the US a few years ago. She was on $100k+.... American teachers do ok. And of course cost of living is typically cheaper as well compared to UK.

What??? Are you sure the $100k+ was all from her primary income? My other half is a primary school Headteacher and is on a fair bit less than that now, even at todays exchange rates.

[super_realist]

I think she must have been pulling your leg or over stating what she earned. That sounds extremely unlikely.
I couldn't find one source which corroborated 100k for a standard primary school teacher. Must have been a Walter Mitty

[kwinigolfer]

A US primary school teacher at the end of her tenure tether could quite easily earn $100K in certain districts, including round here - but no chance in the sticks. Which is where the best teachers are so often most needed.

[pedro]

Are the teachers in the US organised in unions and how are their salaries determined. And I guess there’s a difference from private and public schools?

[kwinigolfer]

Are the teachers in the US organised in unions and how are their salaries determined. And I guess there’s a difference from private and public schools?

The NEA (Teachers Union) is very powerful, but they negotiate with piddling local school "boards", so they have an additional power, almost bullying. A national union vs a tiny town's school board. It's as inequitable as it is iniquitous.

Some private schools' teachers are very well paid, but it's certainly not universal - pretty much mirrors the "public" school system as far as I can see.

[raycastleunited]

I think she must have been pulling your leg or over stating what she earned. That sounds extremely unlikely.
I couldn't find one source which corroborated 100k for a standard primary school teacher. Must have been a Walter Mitty

She may have been exaggerating, I didn't ask to see her payslips or bank statement. We were staying in a 5* resort in Hawaii so she definitely was getting the cash from somewhere!

[raycastleunited]

For 2017-18, starting salaries for teachers will range from $54,000 (bachelor’s degree, no prior teaching experience) to $81,694 (master’s degree, eight years teaching experience, plus additional coursework). New teachers with a master’s degree but no prior teaching experience earned $60,704. Teachers’ salaries increase each year for more experience as well as education. In addition, from 2015 to 2018, all salary steps will increase about 13 percent, with the most experienced teachers earning $119,000 annually.

From here (she was in New York which I imagine pays better):
http://teachnyc.net/your-career/salary-and-benefits

[JAS]

I think she must have been pulling your leg or over stating what she earned. That sounds extremely unlikely.
I couldn't find one source which corroborated 100k for a standard primary school teacher. Must have been a Walter Mitty

She may have been exaggerating, I didn't ask to see her payslips or bank statement. We were staying in a 5* resort in Hawaii so she definitely was getting the cash from somewhere!

Ah now you’re talking Ray, whereabouts? I’m heading there at Easter, 12th or 13th visit I think. Done all the main islands except for Molokai.

[kwinigolfer]

For 2017-18, starting salaries for teachers will range from $54,000 (bachelor’s degree, no prior teaching experience) to $81,694 (master’s degree, eight years teaching experience, plus additional coursework). New teachers with a master’s degree but no prior teaching experience earned $60,704. Teachers’ salaries increase each year for more experience as well as education. In addition, from 2015 to 2018, all salary steps will increase about 13 percent, with the most experienced teachers earning $119,000 annually.

From here (she was in New York which I imagine pays better):
http://teachnyc.net/your-career/salary-and-benefits

ray,
Where on earth did you dredge those salaries from?

EDIT - Sorry! Ah, Just read your link. NYC only - try that Upstate and you'll struggle to find teachers making 60% of that lot.


First of all, they vary wildly (in most States anyway, possibly excepting Hawaii which is the only State I know of with just a single School District - in piddling little Vermont we have over 300 separate districts all with their own negotiating status) from district to district, let alone from County to County or State to State.
Back to the drawing board on that one - I have two NY State teachers staying with us this weekend, I'll get their views!
And I'll get my daughter to give you a shout - she'd bite your hand off for a fraction of your alleged pay range.

[pedro]

Here’s a draft of the new job requirement: “Guns don’t kill - teachers do.”

[raycastleunited]

I think she must have been pulling your leg or over stating what she earned. That sounds extremely unlikely.
I couldn't find one source which corroborated 100k for a standard primary school teacher. Must have been a Walter Mitty

She may have been exaggerating, I didn't ask to see her payslips or bank statement. We were staying in a 5* resort in Hawaii so she definitely was getting the cash from somewhere!

Ah now you’re talking Ray, whereabouts? I’m heading there at Easter, 12th or 13th visit I think. Done all the main islands except for Molokai.

It was the Fairmont Orchid on the big island. Very nice, but prices in the hotel ridiculous because they have a captive market. I don't mind paying a lot of money for a nice hotel, but I resent being fleeced when they charge silly money for a beer or a pizza. The golf course on the resort is built on a lava flow and looks spectacular.

[JAS]

I think she must have been pulling your leg or over stating what she earned. That sounds extremely unlikely.
I couldn't find one source which corroborated 100k for a standard primary school teacher. Must have been a Walter Mitty

She may have been exaggerating, I didn't ask to see her payslips or bank statement. We were staying in a 5* resort in Hawaii so she definitely was getting the cash from somewhere!

Ah now you’re talking Ray, whereabouts? I’m heading there at Easter, 12th or 13th visit I think. Done all the main islands except for Molokai.

It was the Fairmont Orchid on the big island. Very nice, but prices in the hotel ridiculous because they have a captive market. I don't mind paying a lot of money for a nice hotel, but I resent being fleeced when they charge silly money for a beer or a pizza. The golf course on the resort is built on a lava flow and looks spectacular.

Cool, I’m on the Big island 1st week too then a week on Kauai. Played a total of 14 different courses on the islands but none on the Big Island, this’ll only be my 2nd stay on the Big island, very much looking forward to although it does look like the better courses are a bit “private”.
You’re right about getting fleeced and it will really feel like that at the moment with the exchange rate too. The Hawaiians are pretty adept at knowing the demographic of their visitors and how to milk it :-/

[kwinigolfer]

Allardyce throwing his players under the bus once again. However does he expect that to help? Sack can't come soon enough for Big Fat Sam. Idiot.

[super_realist]

Another bloated and over-rated manager, like Pardew and Woy.

[kwinigolfer]

Sorry to read of Roger Bannister's death; given his entire body of work, would think he must rank pretty high in any list of top ten Britons of the post WWII era.

[JAS]

Sorry to read of Roger Bannister's death; given his entire body of work, would think he must rank pretty high in any list of top ten Britons of the post WWII era.

Sad indeed and it appears nobody but nobody and a bad word to say about him. It was all good and wholesome praise, a real throwback to when it was all about enjoyment and endeavour not about sponsorship deals and urine samples. I think he epitomises what sport is now missing.

[JAS]

Jeez...MPs criticising anyone on ethical issues...oh the irony!!

[Diggers]

Sorry to read of Roger Bannister's death; given his entire body of work, would think he must rank pretty high in any list of top ten Britons of the post WWII era.

Sad indeed and it appears nobody but nobody and a bad word to say about him. It was all good and wholesome praise, a real throwback to when it was all about enjoyment and endeavour not about sponsorship deals and urine samples. I think he epitomises what sport is now missing.

I was at the world indoors yesterday. They did a little tribute and then the arena started to applause, then everyone just stood and carried on for a minute. Genuine respect for a great man who lived an incredible life.

[super_realist]

They should have carried on for 3 minutes 59 seconds.

I don't think people realise just how fast that is.

[Hibbz]

15mph?

[super_realist]

Very good, What I mean is that most people couldn't get close to 5 mins for a mile, let alone 4.

Shane Lowry and Aphibarnrat might get close when the buffet opens.

[raycastleunited]

15mph?

haha

[JAS]

Jeez...MPs criticising anyone on ethical issues...oh the irony!!

Spent a bit more time looking at Wiggins & Brailsford's interviews, also looked at the story. I thought initially that it was the Beeb fuelling a non story into a big scandal and simultaneously trying discredit the name of it's broadcasting rival. However it's not just the Beeb, the story is given much the same angle from ITV. Perhaps for the same reasons. They are clearly interpreting that there is a case to answer because the MPs think there is. Quote "MPs believe that Team Sky used drugs to enhance performance, not just to treat medical need." Well blow me away, the next time my asthma gets bad I'll just hop on up to the HoC and have a team of "experts" analyse exactly what medicine I need to take and how much of it. Personally I think the committee of MPs have crossed the ethical line in interpreting legal TUE use as cheating.

[I'm never wrong]

Whatever or whoever you believe, it is outrageous that MPs have come out with this. They are still protected by parliamentary privilege in saying these things (without the opportunity for formal rebuttal in the report) because if they weren't I wouldn't have been surprised to see Team Sky sue the pants off them.

[beninho]

PSG, all that money for a first knockout round defeat.

[navyblueshorts]

Jeez...MPs criticising anyone on ethical issues...oh the irony!!

Spent a bit more time looking at Wiggins & Brailsford's interviews, also looked at the story. I thought initially that it was the Beeb fuelling a non story into a big scandal and simultaneously trying discredit the name of it's broadcasting rival. However it's not just the Beeb, the story is given much the same angle from ITV. Perhaps for the same reasons. They are clearly interpreting that there is a case to answer because the MPs think there is.  Quote "MPs believe that Team Sky used drugs to enhance performance, not just to treat medical need." Well blow me away, the next time my asthma gets bad I'll just hop on up to the HoC and have a team of "experts" analyse exactly what medicine I need to take and how much of it. Personally I think the committee of MPs have crossed the ethical line in interpreting legal TUE use as cheating.

Oh, come on. No-one said it was illegal and they specified being the wrong side of an ethical line, not a legislative one. Have a look at all the issues here - something stinks, and I don't mean MPs proselytising on 'ethics'.
Mysterious packages that amazingly have no documentation. Laptops 'stolen' that just happen to have relevant data on them. Steroid use just before major events. Etc. Incredibly, I seem to recall Lance Armstrong claiming he wasn't a cheat - not long before it became obvious that he was, well, a serial cheat.
Has all the hallmarks of meldonium use by people with 'heart problems' but just happen to be global elite sportsmen and women. Legal (although not any more), but utterly unethical.

From here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/43281807

•    The absence of any references to any asthma illness in 2012 by Wiggins in his book.
  
•    The timing of Wiggins' medical exemption applications, just before major races.
  
•    Sutton's admission in a BBC documentary last year that Team Sky used TUEs to "find the gains".
  
•    The inconsistencies and inaccuracies in Team Sky's initial explanations for the 'jiffy-bag' delivery, and Brailsford's apparent request to the Daily Mail to consider a deal that would make the story 'go away'.
  
•    The absence of any medical records at a team that prided itself on its attention to detail, and which has conveniently made establishing what was in the 'jiffy bag' so far impossible.
  
•    The unavailability of Dr Freeman, now under investigation by the GMC, supposedly due to illness.
  
•    The apparent theft of his laptop while on holiday in Greece on which data was kept.
  
•    British Cycling's "chaotic" medical storeroom which they shared with Team Sky, compounding the potential hindering of the Ukad investigation, as revealed by a secret letter the BBC obtained and published in January.
  
•    The unexplained mystery delivery of testosterone patches to the national velodrome in 2011.
  
•    The BBC's exclusive interviews with two former Team Sky riders - Josh Edmondson and Jonathan Tiernan-Locke - both of whom spoke about the unethical use of controversial painkiller Tramadol while on the team's books.
  

The whole thing stinks.

[super_realist]

I'd prefer people like Tom Watson to explain how he got 500k off Max Mosley.

[JAS]

So if it was that obvious that something stank...howcome it’s taken until now to come out. Everybody seemed happy enough to ride the patriotic wave in 2012, are we now to think that our lovable bunch of experts in Westminster take 6 years to get a grip on a story?

If they did nothing illegal then it’s a non story, crikey I might have had an extra puff of my ventolin before the 2014 London marathon, I’m now quaking in my boots that WADA will turn up on my doorstep and ask for my medal.

Seriously though there is something that stinks here and it’s not what Wiggins/Team Sky did in 2012, there’s something else going on. Testing goes on at every event, are we to believe that somehow multiple tests failed to uncover misdemeanours? Wiggins, Froome, Farah...who’s next? Redgrave? Hoy? We get heroes we build them up then try to destroy/discredit them. Why the thrust to discredit achievement? I don’t think it’s random, I think it’s orchestrated, I just don’t know yet why?

[JAS]

I'd prefer people like Tom Watson to explain how he got 500k off Max Mosley.

Maybe for the 7 iron used to hit into the 72nd green at the ‘77 Open at Turnberry :-p

Or did you mean the treacherous slug whos main objectives would appear to be to undermine his party leader at every opportunity?

Speaking of treacherous slugs, good to know the NHS is safe in the governments hands...have a look at this....

http://www.nhsforsale.info/database/impact-database/conflict-of-interest/GOVERNMENT-POLITICIANS.html

[super_realist]

Corbyn doesn't exactly need anyone to undermine him. He does that all by himself. Did you hear him pretty much libel the army yesterday? The guy is scum and he couldn't even beat the worst Tory PM in centuries.

[navyblueshorts]

So if it was that obvious that something stank...howcome it’s taken until now to come out. Everybody seemed happy enough to ride the patriotic wave in 2012, are we now to think that our lovable bunch of experts in Westminster take 6 years to get a grip on a story?

Well, yes. Of course everyone wanted to believe the Wiggins story in 2012. We're British! Play by the Rules and all that - except we don't. It tends to happen that things like this aren't immediately out in the open because the dodgy ones tend to try and hide it.

If they did nothing illegal then it’s a non story, crikey I might have had an extra puff of my ventolin before the 2014 London marathon, I’m now quaking in my boots that WADA will turn up on my doorstep and ask for my medal.

With all due respect, elite athlete you aren't. Are you?
Just out of interest, what were your thoughts on Sharapova et al and their meldonim use? I don't mean the specific incident of Sharapova being thick and falling foul after it was embargoed.

Seriously though there is something that stinks here and it’s not what Wiggins/Team Sky did in 2012, there’s something else going on. Testing goes on at every event, are we to believe that somehow multiple tests failed to uncover misdemeanours? Wiggins, Froome, Farah...who’s next? Redgrave? Hoy? We get heroes we build them up then try to destroy/discredit them. Why the thrust to discredit achievement? I don’t think it’s random, I think it’s orchestrated, I just don’t know yet why?

Testing of some athletes goes on at, before and after events. If the dodgy TUE route is used, why would investigators even look at, for example, Wiggins's corticosteroid levels? We get heroes because we a still dumb enough to believe that everything is above board. When there's (justifiable IMO) doubt and hypocrisy (Team Sky and their "We're white than white" scheiss) involved, it's quite natural to be angry about it etc. This isn't orchestrated at all.

Re. TUEs. I don't understand the need - at all. Not fit/well enough to train/compete? Tough.

[beninho]

Anyone dominating in cycling is questionable based on past experiences. I would like Sky to be pure as the driven snow but it's hard not to be sceptical.

[JAS]

“Play by the rules except we don’t” well we do actually, no rule was actually broken. Ethical lines being crossed is something entirely different.

Yes you are correct Navy, I’m not an elite athlete. Not sure the point of pointing that out in terms of medication. An elite athlete with asthma will still have similar medication needs to the average Joe.
This is probably where my feeling the need to defend them comes from. As an asthmatic I want to fight it as best I can, when I look around and see people like Wiggins and Froome overcoming it to achieve great things then it gives hope that if you train well you can have your condition under control (not a given for many people). I suppose in that respect Armstrong did much the same for cancer patients and it would have been immensely deflating for many when the real truth was uncovered.
Having said that this is not an Armstrong like abuse, epo would never make it anywhere near a TUE list.
Sharapova? Her and her medical team should have been more on the ball when Meldonium was outlawed. They should have approached the authorities with details of her condition and sought an alternative, retired or continued to compete without. If she’d done the latter and had heart failure on court where would that have taken the debate?

Back to cycling, I just think there is baggage in the sport which makes it an easy target when situations like this arise. I don’t think it’s any different from other sports in terms of abuse. Football, Athletics, tennis etc...and don’t even start with weightlifting.

[navyblueshorts]

“Play by the rules except we don’t” well we do actually, no rule was actually broken¹. Ethical lines being crossed is something entirely different.

Yes you are correct Navy, I’m not an elite athlete. Not sure the point of pointing that out in terms of medication. An elite athlete with asthma will still have similar medication needs to the average Joe. ²
This is probably where my feeling the need to defend them comes from. As an asthmatic I want to fight it as best I can, when I look around and see people like Wiggins and Froome overcoming it to achieve great things then it gives hope that if you train well you can have your condition under control (not a given for many people). I suppose in that respect Armstrong did much the same for cancer patients and it would have been immensely deflating for many when the real truth was uncovered.
Having said that this is not an Armstrong like abuse, epo would never make it anywhere near a TUE list.
Sharapova? Her and her medical team should have been more on the ball when Meldonium was outlawed. They should have approached the authorities with details of her condition and sought an alternative, retired or continued to compete without. If she’d done the latter and had heart failure on court where would that have taken the debate?³

Back to cycling, I just think there is baggage in the sport which makes it an easy target when situations like this arise. I don’t think it’s any different from other sports in terms of abuse. Football, Athletics, tennis etc...and don’t even start with weightlifting.

By all means split hairs re. 'rules'. We aren't whiter than white. We've had athletes banned and test positive for all sorts. Our footballers dive and play act as much as 'Johnny Foreigner'. Etc. We're no better, but we do like to spout on about how, somehow, we're morally better.

1 - Well, none that we can prove to-date.
2 - But no-one cares about what an amateur athlete puts in their body.
3 - She had about as much chance of a heart problem on court as the balls she hits. She, and those like her using meldonium, had no 'heart problem'.

I partially accept the idea that those watching athletes with alleged conditions like asthma can manage the condition via sport. That complicates things slightly. Not sure re. Froome, but as has been pointed out before, Wiggins makes no mention in his biography of asthma, anywhere, in his youth. There's a lot of baggage in cycling - justifiably so - but you're absolutely right that it's not confined to just that sport.

After all this, no idea on a solution, but actually banning people for life might be somewhere to start, especially for anabolics. Maybe they should be allowed to use whatever pharmaceuticals they want? Sign a waiver re. long-term health and let them have a ball...

[super_realist]

Are the England football team on drugs, and if not, should they be allowed them?

[navyblueshorts]

Are the England football team on drugs, and if not, should they be allowed them?

Don't think there's anything that can enhance performance enough is there?

[I'm never wrong]

I remember listening to a commentator - when an England football match was postponed due to heavy rain for 24 hours - talking about the issues with the players having taken caffeine pills and not playing, and then having to play again later.

[Roller_Coaster]

Always wondered whether the Gatorade bottles had Gatorade (or Lucozade sport bottles with LS) in them or water.

Transpires they were full of espresso. I think Charlie Adam might have had a latte and accompanying pastries though!

[raycastleunited]

Sorry to read of Roger Bannister's death; given his entire body of work, would think he must rank pretty high in any list of top ten Britons of the post WWII era.

I assume you mean top ten for his medical contributions?

As an athlete his career wasn't particularly remarkable... held a world record for 6 weeks at a time when athletics wasn't particularly competitive. that record has since been completely annihilated by modern athletes. Won a single gold at the European championships, no world or Olympic titles.

Came across as an absolute gentleman however, and a great role model.

[kwinigolfer]

Sorry to read of Roger Bannister's death; given his entire body of work, would think he must rank pretty high in any list of top ten Britons of the post WWII era.

I assume you mean top ten for his medical contributions?

As an athlete his career wasn't particularly remarkable... held a world record for 6 weeks at a time when athletics wasn't particularly competitive. that record has since been completely annihilated by modern athletes. Won a single gold at the European championships, no world or Olympic titles.

Came across as an absolute gentleman however, and a great role model.

As I said, "his entire body of work".

Regarding the mile, not many of us remember the names of those who walked on the moon, but few would forget that Neil Armstrong was the first. In each case an iconic achievement at a time their respective nations needed it.

[super_realist]

What on earth was Jamie Carragher thinking about? Footballers really can be the worst of us.

[Diggers]

Sorry to read of Roger Bannister's death; given his entire body of work, would think he must rank pretty high in any list of top ten Britons of the post WWII era.

I assume you mean top ten for his medical contributions?

As an athlete his career wasn't particularly remarkable... held a world record for 6 weeks at a time when athletics wasn't particularly competitive. that record has since been completely annihilated by modern athletes. Won a single gold at the European championships, no world or Olympic titles.

Came across as an absolute gentleman however, and a great role model.

Bit harsh I'd say Ray. Also won a Commonwealth and Empire gold when that was a bigger deal. The European Champs were a much bigger deal then as well. Only one Olympic chance where he finished 4th as he retired before 56 to focus on medicine. They didn't have world champs back then so the global title chance was really that one race. He was considered to be the main man for a while, sure he was no Seb Coe but he was a very, very good athlete.

[McLaren]

What on earth was Jamie Carragher thinking about? Footballers really can be the worst of us.

Also was he saving up saliva for such and event because it looks like he spits half a glass of water over them? What an arse hole.

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