Pro14 Conference A v Conference B

So heading into the last round and a few games I want to look at how the Conferences have done against each other.  It is true the two worse teams are in B but what about the rest.

A (H) v B
W-21 D-0 L-7

B (H) v A
W-20 D-1 L-8

Blues W5 L4
Cheetahs W6 L2 must play kings
Connacht W4 L4 must play Leinster
Glasgow W4 D1 L2 must play Ulster & Edinburgh
Munster W6 L2 must play Ulster
Ospreys W4 L5
Zebre W3 L5 must play Benetton

Benetton W4 L4 must play Zebre
Dragon W2 D1 L6
Edinburgh W6 L2 must play Glasgow
Kings W0 L8 must play Cheetahs
Leinster W5 L3 must play Connacht
Scarlets W7 L2
Ulster W4 L3 must play Munster and Glasgow

Conference A
Glasgow & Cheetahs haven't loss at home to the other Conference

Conference B
Edinburgh, Leinster, Scarlets & Ulster haven't loss at home to the other Conference

Didn't want to put my opinion in the start just the facts

I think that going on the head to head if it had been a straight league Edinburgh & Benetton would still be quite high. Edinburgh and Leinster have both only lost one game at home and that was to Benetton.

Excluding the Kings the Dragons have got more points off Conference A than B

Brendan wrote:So heading into the last round and a few games I want to look at how the Conferences have done against each other.  It is true the two worse teams are in B but what about the rest.

A (H) v B
W-21 D-0 L-7

B (H) v A
W-20 D-1 L-8

Blues W5 L4
Cheetahs W6 L2 must play kings
Connacht W4 L4 must play Leinster
Glasgow W4 D1 L2 must play Ulster & Edinburgh
Munster W6 L2 must play Ulster
Ospreys W4 L5
Zebre W3 L5 must play Benetton

Benetton W4 L4 must play Zebre
Dragon W2 D1 L6
Edinburgh W6 L2 must play Glasgow
Kings W0 L8 must play Cheetahs
Leinster W5 L3 must play Connacht
Scarlets W7 L2
Ulster W4 L3 must play Munster and Glasgow

Conference A
Glasgow & Cheetahs haven't loss at home to the other Conference

Conference B
Edinburgh, Leinster, Scarlets & Ulster haven't loss at home to the other Conference

Yet ! This could change over next 2 Saturdays

How do the organisers work out which teams have 11 home games per season, and which teams have 10 home games per season?

RugbyFan100 wrote:How do the organisers work out which teams have 11 home games per season, and which teams have 10 home games per season?

Those who had 10 this season will have 11 next season, same for the trip to SA those who had only one game there will have 2 next season. Or at least that's how it should be!

VinceWLB wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:How do the organisers work out which teams have 11 home games per season, and which teams have 10 home games per season?

Those who had 10 this season will have 11 next season, same for the trip to SA those who had only one game there will have 2 next season. Or at least that's how it should be!

I thought there would be a re-seeding for next season which might not make the SA travel part possible.

Basically we're all in agreement then!

Conference B is the better, more challenging, conference with better teams in it and Conference A is a bit poo with lesser teams which has given Glasgow an easy ride to the playoffs!

Glasgow could well win both but could also rest players against Ulster

What I'm a little peeved at (other than the ridiculous situation with some teams playing more home games than others) is that when Glasgow play Edinburgh, Edinburgh will know exactly what they will have to do to come above the Scarlets. Whether it be a win, 4 tries, a bonus point win whatever - they kick off 3 hours after the scarlets have finished their game.

And who are they playing against? That's right - they're playing against a team that have the same owners as them, who will have already qualified.

If Scarlets beat Dragons (who have won 2 games this season) then there is nothing Edinburgh can do to catch Scarlets. So yeah in theory the scheduling isn't ideal, but really it won't make a difference

EWT Spoons wrote:If Scarlets beat Dragons (who have won 2 games this season) then there is nothing Edinburgh can do to catch Scarlets.  

I don't think that's correct.

RugbyFan100 wrote:What I'm a little peeved at (other than the ridiculous situation with some teams playing more home games than others) is that when Glasgow play Edinburgh, Edinburgh will know exactly what they will have to do to come above the Scarlets. Whether it be a win, 4 tries, a bonus point win whatever - they kick off 3 hours after the scarlets have finished their game.

And who are they playing against? That's right - they're playing against a team that have the same owners as them, who will have already qualified.

Derby games for the final round. IRFU own all the Irish teams. Only way around it is to put derby games earlier on in the season.

Scarlets need to beat Dragons vs Edinburgh needing to get a point more than Scarlets against Glasgow with bragging rights on the line (split the games so far). Edinburgh should have the harder task (if Scarlets can't beat Dragons on a neutral ground after putting out a 3rd string side at Edinburgh, they will have thrown away 2nd). Munster got it worse with the schedule when they had to spend the last 2 weeks in South Africa before a Racing 92 semi final (can't plan for cup runs).

In the Scots thread, the reason for the late kickoff is due to a mix of Sky wanting a late kickoff and the SRU are doing a finals day for club rugby starting near mid-day and culminating with the 1872 game.

Edit: If they finish on same points, Edinburgh go above Scarlets courtesy of more wins.

I've been on the record about Ulster and Munster being the last match. If Ulster know what they need (and bear in mind the game is a week after the Heineken Semi) will there be a quiet word in the corridors of power. It shouldn't come down to it but it might.

In terms of the conferences i tried to come up with a team for conference B but its bloody difficult. Anyone any advance on

Evans
McInally
Furlong
Ryan
Henderson
Beirne
Watson/Davies/Leavy (genuinely couldn't pick here)
Conan in the meantime but im at a loss here. I cant name many others
Davies
Sexton
Stockdale
Parkes/Henshaw
Ringrose
Evans
Halfpenny/Kearney

Im doing a disservice to Treviso and Edinburgh here (the latter specifically). You could just as easy do a composite team of Leinster and Scarlets and say that'll do. This isnt based on who has been better this season but more who are the best players.

tigertattie wrote:Basically we're all in agreement then!

Conference B is the better, more challenging, conference with better teams in it and Conference A is a bit poo with lesser teams which has given Glasgow an easy ride to the playoffs!

Not as straightforward as that. People were pointing out at the start that A was much stronger but it hasn't ended up like we thought. Not as one sided as S15 conferences but it's added a nice dimension to the league in my opinion.

If they change up conferences every two years the away games sort themselves

Brendan wrote:

If they change up conferences every two years the away games sort themselves

I thought they were changing every season based on league position.

I fully agree that the derby games should not be in the last end of the season. Even the prospect of internal deal making to ensure a result is just bad.

All derby matches should have been played long before now.

Hopefully this is address next year!

tigertattie wrote: Even the prospect of internal deal making to ensure a result is just bad.

I love how accepting many posters are now that this is the reality. The league can be gerrymandered by Unions to a point where they more or less fix the result, and it's just water off a duck's back. So poor.

Hazel Sapling wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:What I'm a little peeved at (other than the ridiculous situation with some teams playing more home games than others) is that when Glasgow play Edinburgh, Edinburgh will know exactly what they will have to do to come above the Scarlets. Whether it be a win, 4 tries, a bonus point win whatever - they kick off 3 hours after the scarlets have finished their game.

And who are they playing against? That's right - they're playing against a team that have the same owners as them, who will have already qualified.

Derby games for the final round. IRFU own all the Irish teams. Only way around it is to put derby games earlier on in the season.

Scarlets need to beat Dragons vs Edinburgh needing to get a point more than Scarlets against Glasgow with bragging rights on the line (split the games so far). Edinburgh should have the harder task (if Scarlets can't beat Dragons on a neutral ground after putting out a 3rd string side at Edinburgh, they will have thrown away 2nd). Munster got it worse with the schedule when they had to spend the last 2 weeks in South Africa before a Racing 92 semi final (can't plan for cup runs).

In the Scots thread, the reason for the late kickoff is due to a mix of Sky wanting a late kickoff and the SRU are doing a finals day for club rugby starting near mid-day and culminating with the 1872 game.

Edit: If they finish on same points, Edinburgh go above Scarlets courtesy of more wins.

If Scarlets don't pick up 5pts v Dragons they deserve to finish 3rd especially after making the choice they did with the Edinburgh game. Also as much as Edinburgh have improved do we expect them to score 4 trys

On fixes do we honestly believe that Munster or Glasgow would happily loose so that they can have the defeat rubbered in their face for the next 6 months. I am sure after the way Glasgow lost in Edinburgh last time will be motivation enough.

I would say its more likely to occur if say (in our case) Ulster need just the one point to ensure the playoff spot.

Standulstermen wrote:I would say its more likely to occur if say (in our case) Ulster need just the one point to ensure the playoff spot.

Yes a late try or 2 to get within 7 points.

That said i hope it doesn't come down to that. Its part of the reason i picked Ulster to beat Glasgow. Lesser team but with something tangible to play for beats better team with zero to play for imo.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

tigertattie wrote: Even the prospect of internal deal making to ensure a result is just bad.

I love how accepting many posters are now that this is the reality. The league can be gerrymandered by Unions to a point where they more or less fix the result, and it's just water off a duck's back. So poor.

If you can point to an example of one team throwing a game to help another union team please let us know. If you are referring to the WRU giving the other 3 teams 10 points or the Kings giving Cheetahs 15 I think we would all agree you were wrong as they have done that for all teams

I watched Ospreys v Scarlets this year when Ospreys came close to winning. Both teams wanted to win and neither would have thrown the game to help the other

Brendan wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

tigertattie wrote: Even the prospect of internal deal making to ensure a result is just bad.

I love how accepting many posters are now that this is the reality. The league can be gerrymandered by Unions to a point where they more or less fix the result, and it's just water off a duck's back. So poor.

If you can point to an example of one team throwing a game to help another union team please let us know.  If you are referring to the WRU giving the other 3 teams 10 points or the Kings giving Cheetahs 15 I think we would all agree you were wrong as they have done that for all teams

I watched Ospreys v Scarlets this year when Ospreys came close to winning.  Both teams wanted to win and neither would have thrown the game to help the other

There is more bite, anger and competition in the derby games. Anyone who thinks Connacht roll over for Leinster to let them secure top spot has no knowledge of reality and is living in fake news. Even when Connacht were dross they would play to a whole higher level when the blue jerseys ran out on to the field against them. Couple to that Muldoon in his final home game in their final fixture of the season! Connacht are going to knock seven shades of perverbial out of Leinster. Scarlets are looking back towards 3rd place. A cushy win against the dragons and they'll have the no.1 seed. Of course point fingers the scots, the Irish, the other teams first before fiddling a game for yourselves.

Brendan wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

tigertattie wrote: Even the prospect of internal deal making to ensure a result is just bad.

I love how accepting many posters are now that this is the reality. The league can be gerrymandered by Unions to a point where they more or less fix the result, and it's just water off a duck's back. So poor.

If you can point to an example of one team throwing a game to help another union team please let us know.  If you are referring to the WRU giving the other 3 teams 10 points or the Kings giving Cheetahs 15 I think we would all agree you were wrong as they have done that for all teams

I watched Ospreys v Scarlets this year when Ospreys came close to winning.  Both teams wanted to win and neither would have thrown the game to help the other

It's the prospect of it. The fact posters are even entertaining the thought that a Union owned side might help out another side owned by that Union shows how utterly wrong multiple team ownership is.

It's not the multiple team ownership that is the issue. It's the fact that these teams are playing each other in the final rounds of the league that is the issue!

It's easy to fix, have the first round of Derby games played at the start of the season then play the second round right after the midway point. Any 3 game derbies can be midway point double headers!

Stops any prospect of jiggerypokery

The talk of a stitch up Munster v Ulster is being exaggerated as is stitch ups generally.
The selection might change but the players going out there will be going 100% for a big win.

If Ulster win the game against Glasgow they will be through because of the big points difference advantage over
Treviso.
Treviso getting 5pts will make no difference.
If Ulster loose there is no way Munster will roll over at Thomond Park to do them a favour

There will be no derbies at the start of the Season - bad for bums on seats.
Remember also the Welsh and Irish have 6, not 3, local derbies
Also there derbies have been at the end of the season for years - no one has complained before

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

If they change up conferences every two years the away games sort themselves

I thought they were changing every season based on league position.

They are and they will be for next year.
With the heavy caveat of the play offs at the moment it seems to be Cheetahs and Munster going one way and Leinster and Kings going the other.
Regarding respective strength I reckon one conference has both the best two and the worst two teams
Scarlets/Leinster v Kings/Dragons

Come on Geoff, we all remember how Leinster rolled over last year and helped Ulster get the 5 points they needed to qualify for the play offs

Wait...Ulster didn't make the playoffs you say?

tigertattie wrote:It's not the multiple team ownership that is the issue. It's the fact that these teams are playing each other in the final rounds of the league that is the issue!

It's easy to fix, have the first round of Derby games played at the start of the season then play the second round right after the midway point. Any 3 game derbies can be midway point double headers!

Stops any prospect of jiggerypokery

No, it's not. It's the multiple ownership of teams. Unions will do what's best for them (as is their right). So given the choice to let team A beat team B if it means both team A and team B qualify for a cup and make more money for everybody involved then they'd take it.

Don't think teams will roll over regardless of nationality, local derby pride will outstrip anything else......however not sure how we can level at one particular match or union with out levelling it all games/unions.

For example in conference B if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

Totalflanker wrote: if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

The Dragons and the Scarlets don't have the same owners running the show.

It really is very simple.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:It's not the multiple team ownership that is the issue. It's the fact that these teams are playing each other in the final rounds of the league that is the issue!

It's easy to fix, have the first round of Derby games played at the start of the season then play the second round right after the midway point. Any 3 game derbies can be midway point double headers!

Stops any prospect of jiggerypokery

No, it's not. It's the multiple ownership of teams. Unions will do what's best for them (as is their right). So given the choice to let team A beat team B if it means both team A and team B qualify for a cup and make more money for everybody involved then they'd take it.

Really? Yet they've never done it before, funny that

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Totalflanker wrote: if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

The Dragons and the Scarlets don't have the same owners running the show.

It really is very simple.

And yet the owners of one help fund another, whats to stop them offering an incentive?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Totalflanker wrote: if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

The Dragons and the Scarlets don't have the same owners running the show.

It really is very simple.

And yet the owners of one help fund another, whats to stop them offering an incentive?

What incentive?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Totalflanker wrote: if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

The Dragons and the Scarlets don't have the same owners running the show.

It really is very simple.

And yet the owners of one help fund another, whats to stop them offering an incentive?

What incentive?

What incentive? Seriously?

£££££

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Totalflanker wrote: if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

The Dragons and the Scarlets don't have the same owners running the show.

It really is very simple.

And yet the owners of one help fund another, whats to stop them offering an incentive?

What incentive?

What incentive? Seriously?

£££££

You think the WRU are going to favour a side, financially, break the RSA and risk another internal war? At the very best that's fraud Marty.

I hope the conferences will be as evened out next season.

Looking at the forces in presence i think:

Kings: should be marginally stronger with a proper pre-season, they have yet to sign anyone of note and i think their squad is very weak.
Cheetahs: should be worse unfortunately, they have lost their best players during this season and will lose a few good ones before the next.. They have yet to sign anyone who would noticeably improve the team. Also they are losing their coach (though Franco Smith is a very good backup with past experience in Europe).

Connacht: stronger after getting to know their new coach and the signing of Copeland who i think is an improvement on Muldoon.
Ulster: Better with a more settled squad and a couple of good signing so far.

Blues: i think they will be worse and will really miss Wilson who really got the best out of the squad. North or not.
Dragons: Not sure, jury is out on Jackman but early indicators show he doesn't really know what he is doing. A couple of good signing but they seem to have signed some dross as well.
Ospreys: Can't really be worse although they are losing some key players so might not even improve on this season.

Benetton: Similar which means very good. They are losing Banks but lets face it he has been very poor for them and it was particularly telling when it was Tebaldi and not him who kicked the winning penalty against the Dragons a couple of weeks ago.
Zebre: Should improve with a proper pre-season, a 2nd season with the coach and a fairly settled squad.

Edinburgh: Could still improve but there seems to be a problem at scrum-half and still a question mark at fly-half..

Other teams not mentioned should be similar to this season imo.

I think i wouldn't change and keep as it is, which would be easier as it would mean a straight swap for home/away inter-conferences fixtures.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Totalflanker wrote: if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

The Dragons and the Scarlets don't have the same owners running the show.

It really is very simple.

And yet the owners of one help fund another, whats to stop them offering an incentive?

What incentive?

What incentive? Seriously?

£££££

You think the WRU are going to favour a side, financially, break the RSA and risk another internal war?  At the very best that's fraud Marty.

You are saying the IRFU are going to rig a game, that's fraud you muppet

Not to mention there are ways around things

marty2086 wrote:

You are saying the IRFU are going to rig a game, that's fraud you muppet

Not to mention there are ways around things

They're not going to pay Munster a sum of money for goodness sake, they own them.

It was you who suggested money would change hands, which is a ridiculous notion.

Unions will do what's best for their game overall, And if that means telling a team to go easy in the last 10 minutes if they're strolling it - then that's what happens. Just like they would tell a team to rest 5 or 6 internationals for a game, or tell a team to not offer an overseas player a new contract. That's what Union ownership does to domestic leagues - it is an absolute disease on the sport.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

You are saying the IRFU are going to rig a game, that's fraud you muppet

Not to mention there are ways around things

They're not going to pay Munster a sum of money for goodness sake, they own them.

It was you who suggested money would change hands, which is a ridiculous notion.

Unions will do what's best for their game overall, And if that means telling a team to go easy in the last 10 minutes if they're strolling it - then that's what happens. Just like they would tell a team to rest 5 or 6 internationals for a game, or tell a team to not offer an overseas player a new contract. That's what Union ownership does to domestic leagues - it is an absolute disease on the sport.

Maybe instead of getting into debates that are out of your depth you might want to educate yourself in future

Money doesn't have to change hands for fraud to take place, rigging a sports competition is illegal and doing it for personal gain, i.e a union trying to make more money, is fraud

A union can't tell someone to go easy, IT'S ILLEGAL

Totalflanker wrote:Don't think teams will roll over regardless of nationality, local derby pride will outstrip anything else......however not sure how we can level at one particular match or union with out levelling it all games/unions.

For example in conference B if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

To suggest that the Dragons would have to 'roll over' for the Scarletts to win is laughable.

munkian wrote:

Totalflanker wrote:Don't think teams will roll over regardless of nationality, local derby pride will outstrip anything else......however not sure how we can level at one particular match or union with out levelling it all games/unions.

For example in conference B if we are saying Glasgow will roll over for Edinburgh what is stopping Dragons rolling over for Scarlets to ensure there is no impact of the Edinburgh/Glasgow match?

To suggest that the Dragons would have to 'roll over' for the Scarletts to win is laughable.

many would say the same about Edinburgh and Glasgow but Edinburgh have managed to win 5 out of the last 7 encounters so.............

I think what Munkian means is that the Dragons don’t need to roll over to lose; playing our best game of the season will probably end up in a loss too!

The Oracle wrote:I think what Munkian means is that the Dragons don’t need to roll over to lose; playing our best game of the season will probably end up in a loss too!

And thats what I mean with Edinburgh and Glasgow. Just in this case its the reverse. Edinburgh don't need Glasgow to roll over coz we can have em anyway

5 out of the last 7 you see!

tigertattie wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think what Munkian means is that the Dragons don’t need to roll over to lose; playing our best game of the season will probably end up in a loss too!

And thats what I mean with Edinburgh and Glasgow. Just in this case its the reverse. Edinburgh don't need Glasgow to roll over coz we can have em anyway

5 out of the last 7 you see!

Gotcha, I think!

I am sure that if everyone watches the last round and everyone kicking lumps out of each other, and the upsets, and passion we will all remember why the it is on the final round.

As a muster fan I would rather play blues or Ospreys whose position is set than play Ulster who want to show up well for Joe.