Group G Discussion

First topic message reminder :

England
Belgium
Tunisia
Panama

Awaiting Owen’s detailed report about why this was a bad half for England

GSC wrote:Yes I want to win the group. Not wasting energy looking at potential draws.

Absolutely. Soon as you start messing around trying to plot future paths you lose a bit of focus. They need to concentrate on winning each game as it comes...

At last, bringing subs on.

Kane with a lucky deflection in an offside position for a hat trick, then subbed. Linga Rd as well.

That would be too close to change for VAR for me

Kane's deflection makes it off-side - surely ... no - it is a goal (VAR approved). Hat-trick for Kane.

Come on England - don't concede. Or maybe England want to test their goalkeeper ...

Panama deserve that from there 2nd half performance.

Loved the crowd celebration, that's what the WC brings.

England have entirely eased off.

Pretty sure at the moment the group is being decided by fair play record

When you hear the commentator say "... Sterling with a shot" you just sort of know that it is going to be miles off target - at least not a goal.  He is good in the build-up - but anything apart from a tap-in tends to be a struggle for him.

Pretty easy win and 45 minutes spent conserving. Not much to take away bar qualification secured after 2 games.

Agree with that. Got the job done, got through the group easily.

In a way having Belgium last has worked in our favour. A tough game for the group, so we're starting our winning games for a reason just before the nock out stage.

Topping the group on cards at the moment...

Hard to say how much that game means as the opposition was so weak ; but considering the general pessimism that has dogged the England team for the last few years I think a 6-1 victory and qualification with a game to go calls for measured celebration

The Belgium game should give us a better idea . But for now : hands up anyone who expected 8-2 after two matches before the tournament started ?

alfie wrote:Topping the group on cards at the moment...

Hard to say how much that game means as the opposition was so weak ; but considering the general pessimism that has dogged the England team for the last few years I think a 6-1 victory and qualification with a game to go calls for measured celebration

The Belgium game should give us a better idea . But for now : hands up anyone who expected 8-2 after two matches before the tournament started ?

The Belgium game could be a non-sequiter depending if they want to win the group or not. You should be able to beat anyone from group H so naturally both England and Belgium will have one eye on the Quarter Final and potentially Germany or Brazil.

I'd like to think the Belgium game would be a good marker to see where England stand, but if either team would rather not win then they may aswell give each team a point now. The last 16 tie is when we'll finally see what this England side are capable of.

I really don't get this looking to far ahead to see who we might get.

Surely we have to look at winning games, and let others worry about us being the form team.

I agree, and that should be their focus. If you're going to draw Germany or Brazil you want them to be worried about it. Its entirely possible England could go into those games as favourites.

Samo wrote:Its entirely possible England could go into those games as favourites.

Beating two minnows has really gone to your head

6-1 without Delli Alli - who I think is one of England's better players.  The key is always how well they all play as a team and having some leaders on the pitch.  As yet I agree England have yet to meet a really good well organised side.  

The match with Belgium may not tell us much either - both sides have qualified for the knockout stage - and the runners up position may be more preferable in terms of the potential QF opponents.  As yet Brazil still have to secure the top position in their group and England and Belgium have to get through the round of 16 before worrying about potential opponents in the QF.

Just John wrote:

Samo wrote:Its entirely possible England could go into those games as favourites.

Beating two minnows has really gone to your head

I said already you wont really know until the last 16, but if England can keep up the momentum while the others keep struggling then why not?

To be honest I don't see the point of looking to far ahead, and thinking about certain possible future match-ups. I well remember two years ago everybody was looking forward to a quarter final meeting with France assuming we would easily swat aside inferior opposition in the second round. Don't think it quite worked out like that though...

Just John wrote:

Samo wrote:Its entirely possible England could go into those games as favourites.

Beating two minnows has really gone to your head

Lets consider all the surprises that we have witnessed so far. It not impossible for England to do better.

we play last so we will know who we get dependent on result. i agree on not looking too far ahead but if you gave me the option of japan or Columbia next round id certainly try to get japan

Just to put it out there. If Japan win the group, high chance of the runner up of group G, having to play Japan in the last 16, followed by either Mexico or Switzerland in the QF, to reach the Semi final of the World Cup. Let that sink in.

John

From what I've seen, I'd rather face Germany or Brazil than Mexico...

Germany are slow and lack creativity, while Brazil are over-reliant on Neymar. Mexico have been one of the most dynamic teams so far and I would fear for our defence against their attacking players.

I'm not saying I'd be confident of England beating any of them in a one-off game, but I think there's a bit of a case of fearing through reputation rather than performance in the cases of Germany and Brazil (and Argentina) this tournament. To date, the best teams I've seen are Mexico, Croatia, Belgium, Russia and England.

the problem being that weve all seen teams off to a flyer before then freeze at the knockouts. germany and brazil know how to get through these rounds and more than likely would dominate possession. which with our defence would be a major worry

not to mention we'd be cacking ourselves against either just because who they are. despite both looking fairly poor

compelling and rich wrote:the problem being that weve all seen teams off to a flyer before then freeze at the knockouts. germany and brazil know how to get through these rounds and more than likely would dominate possession. which with our defence would be a major worry

not to mention we'd be cacking ourselves against either just because who they are. despite both looking fairly poor

But every tournament it's a different squad of players - yes, Germany have a lot of the Champions from 4 years ago still around, but they don't look as good players as they were (e.g. Hummels has really declined even since the last England v Germany game). We should play the team that's in front of us, not the reputation of German or Brazilian teams of the past. I know that's easier said than done, but I really don't see a great deal to fear based on their performances to date.

My main point though is that we shouldn't really be thinking about what the best tactic is to move forwards, and just go out and play as well as we can. Oddly, I don't think we were all that good yesterday with regard to keeping possession and playing to the system (were much better in the first half against Tunisia), we just came up against a team that couldn't defend set pieces and took the chances on offer. Doubt Kane will ever score a hat-trick where he has to do less - 2 penalties earned by others and inadvertently deflecting a shot in off his heels...

Iceland at the Euros instead of Portugal

The benefit of being the last group game of the tournament is we'll know before we kick off against Belgium, who we'd face in the Last 16 and who our potential QF opponents would be.

Belgium probably thought they had an easy Euros draw 2 years ago as well, and went out to Wales.

(The same Wales who could only draw 1-1 back in November against... Panama)

If the choice is between
1) Finishing runner up of Group G: R16 Japan QF Mexico
2) Finishing top of Group G: .......  R16 Columbia QF Brazil

then it would be naïve management (imo) not to try to take path 1).  Both Belgium and England have the luxury of already having qualified for the knockout stages.  Hence their final match is NOT a must win / must not lose match.  

Now Roberto Martinez after the Belgium 3 Tunisia 0 match said, IF Belgium has already qualified for the knockout rounds then he will be able to rest players for the final group match.  He said it was a shame Belgium lost Lukaku during the Tunisia match (substituted after 59 minutes) - with the indication he will definitely miss the England match (and maybe more matches).  He also said Hazard (taken off after 68 minutes) has a muscular strain in his leg - and he would very much like to rest him.  He also said Mertens has taken a knock and he would consider resting him too.  Apart from this Martinez was fairly cagey as to what approach he would take in the final match.

With Gareth Southgate - he said he was very keen to come top of the group (no matter what) and will try to win the final group match.  However, he said he has a decision to make.  The tournament is potentially long (note the knockout stage can have extra time as well as penalties - so are potentially far more physically demanding of players than group stages) and he is likely to need the full resources of his squad (given likelihood of injuries and cards) - and so he may mix the team up for the last match in order to get other squad members, who he may need to call upon later in the tournament, a competitive match.  However, he says he wants to win the match.  Personally I think he may need to start (or bring on as a 2nd half substitute) Dele Alli - as he has already missed one game due to injury and probably needs some game time.

What do you mean naive management? Would England be naive if we chose not to throw a game?

Also, for all the worries of Germany or Brazil, there's still a chance of it being Serbia or Sweden yet

Marky wrote:What do you mean naive management? Would England be naive if we chose not to throw a game?

Also, for all the worries of Germany or Brazil, there's still a chance of it being Serbia or Sweden yet

I used an "IF - Scenario - Then" statement.  If the scenario is different then my comment doesn't apply.

Anyway I am reminded of the London Olympics Badminton Female Doubles Group Match - where both opponents had already qualified through to the knockout stages and both wanted to finish runner up rather than top of the group in order to avoid a world champion pairing who had somehow finished runner up in another group.  Both teams tried not to win - they both got warnings - and then they were both disqualified from the competition.

Or we could lose to Belgium 3/4-0, confidence goes and we lose in the last 16.

Like I said, I think people are over thinking this.
Let's just take it one game at a time and worry about that one, rather than who we could get 2 or 3 games down the line.
There's still a Rd 16 game to negotiate before worrying who we could face later.

Remember also that if finishing second would be better for us, then it would also be better for Belgium. There could be the ridiculous situation where both teams are trying their best to lose the game. To take a quote from another sport "It's just not cricket"

Lukaku (injury concern), De Bruyne, Vertonghen & Meunièr (all booked), expected to be rested for the England game.

i can see a dire 0-0 with teams trying to get booked to finish second on the cards. it really could be a farce, but if the option is japan then mexico dont see why you wouldn't try. a quarter final place was a success before the tournament. to get top a semi would be miles better than any of us hoped

Messi with a wonderful goal. Argentina 1-0.
Might bring Nigeria out a bit more.

Luke wrote:Messi with a wonderful goal. Argentina 1-0.
Might bring Nigeria out a bit more.

Sorry, should have paid more attention.

So to all those who have been suggesting England losing could be beneficial.

Who would you want to play in the last 16, Colombia who have pace and power and are a decent side, technically good, but can be cut open, and dont seem to have much of a structure. OrJapan who are fast, technically good, but don't have much of an attacking threat, and given our main plays are from free-kicks and corners are small?

Yeah, that should put it to bed, now Japan have taken second. It’s still a harder route, but just take our chances with Brazil now. Japan are woeful, so if we win the group, and don’t end that 12 year knockout drought, it would be an utter embarrassment.

Apparently 8 changes tonight, no Harry Kane. This is the rumour.

Apart from Harry Kane, I think England have got a lot of like for like players. This is quite a young team, with not that many with a lot of experience at this level. So 8 changes for England and 9 changes for Belgium.

England B v Belgium B. Surprised by the amount of changes for England, that wasn’t the feeling coming from Southgate during the interviews this week.

General feeling is that, I bet the Belgian B side looks more comfortable and settled from the off, think we will be more disjointed with these changes. Might lose this, and a big call from Southgate to make these changes.

If all the disciplinary points are going to be reset after the QF stage - then it makes sense to swap to a team B for this "dead rubber". Team A players would be more careful not to get cards and not to get injuries - team B players are more likely to try harder given this is their opportunity to impress the manager for selection in later games. The risk as you mention - is how well they gel as a team unit.

I actually like some of the changes. Walker (because of his yellow card more) out. Don't think we lose to much putting Alexander- Arnold and Rose in the team, or Dier. People have been calling out for Rashford so here's his chance. And more experience for Loftus-Cheek.

Belgium setting their stall out from the start, Fellaini in to ensure Belgium make a strong start on fair play

Fairly open start by both teams. Pickford nearly throwing one into his own net. Which I wasn't working so could enjoy it more.

Game being played a step below full intensity. England have had a few openings but Belgium have had clear cut chances.

None of this lot are pushing the first team.

England comfortably beating Belgium now on fair play

Rashford and Vardy doesn't really work, Dier showing why hes a reserve player, Delph and the FBs tidy enough.

We'll see if Belgium feel like chasing the group in the second half. Both teams seem happy enough at the moment.

Januzaj