Group G Discussion

First topic message reminder :

England
Belgium
Tunisia
Panama

Can't help but think the defenders could have blocked that if they'd tried.

Also, Bashuayi booting the ball into his own face is probably going to end up being my highlight of this entire tournament.

Rashford would have scored that he wanted

I think Belgium were pretty peeved seeing that ball go in earlier. Imagine having to pretend you are happy.

Lol... England should try being more convincing in pretending they actually care about scoring

Would be funny if they lost out to Colombia after a display like this

England v Colombia
Belgium v Japan

Meaningless game but the draw some wanted I guess. Nobody did much

From the bits I saw and heard about. Only Rose and  Delph and Cahill really putting themselves forward as potential 1st team. The rest especially midfield and forwards showing why they're reserves.

Southgate’s put all his eggs on that Colombia last 16 tie. Lose, and tonight’s decision will come back to haunt him.

You were calling for this like 2 days ago.

Can someone actually explain this theory of we've got in the easier half of the draw please?

Cause from what I've seen, France have been average, have some great players but not a team. Argentina have been poor on the pitch, and seem to have behind the scenes issues. Brazil have turned it on for 10/15 minster per game, but are not that special.Mexico great going forward but have issues at the back. And just got thumped by Sweden.

Meanwhile in our half, we got a decent Sweden who've been performing well. Colombia who's going forward look exciting and have genuine pace. Croatia who have been outstanding and possibly the best side of the tournament so far. Spain who have at last found a goalscorer.

It seems people are more scared of names, rather than what's happening on the pitch.

Luke wrote:Can someone actually explain this theory of we've got in the easier half of the draw please?

Because most of the better teams are on the other side of the draw

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Luke wrote:Can someone actually explain this theory of we've got in the easier half of the draw please?

Because most of the better teams are on the other side of the draw

Not on performances so far, the better teams are in our half.

At some point you're going to have to beat a really good team to win the world cup.

Pointless really thinking beyond the next game, a few days ago everyone wanted to avoid Germany.

True

Colombia will be a tricky game, they got pace to worry our defence. And are quite a powerful side. Should be an interesting game, for the neutrals anyway.

GSC wrote:You were calling for this like 2 days ago.

I was, only slight difference is that we all thought Japan would of won the group, so the difficulty altered by finishing as runners-up. I still think we’ve done the right thing. Having said that, my point was solely about Southgate, and his decision to make wholesale changes. If we lose to Colombia, he’s basically dug his own grave, and the media will go back to this Belgium game, and hound him for it.

This was always going to sway opinion. I see the view, that given it's Colombia, and not Japan, maybe Southgate should of played the first eleven, and guaranteed that Japan last 16 game. I’d like to think we would of won that game with our first eleven, and then Southgate would of secured a QF place, which would of exceeded expectations, and ended our 12 year knockout drought. Now he’s under more scrutiny and pressure, as the Colombia game, although winnable, certainly has a higher difficulty rating. There is a risk of England losing this, and going out at the last 16, which would be a dire ending, for a side with such potential.

I mean if the media actually listened to Southgate's reasoning, they would surely understand it. He didn't want to risk guys like Kane in an ultimately pointless game, and also wanted to make sure the backups had played a game so that if they're needed in the knockout rounds, they would have played some actual football in the past three weeks. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Of course the media will jump onto it, because of their old fashioned thinking and "back in my day" nonsense. Hopefully the FA realise Southgate is building something here whatever happens, and gives him time.

Colombia are a slightly harder task than Japan, but this isn't the Colombia of 2014 - especially seeing as at best James Rodriguez is going to be half fit. We *should* be beating them.

As for the starting XI for that game, I don't think anyone last night did themselves any favours and I expect the same starting line up for the first game. Rashford had a chance to prove he should be in ahead of Sterling, but unfortunately slotted it round the post instead of into the bottom corner...

If England lose to Colombia can this World Cup be viewed as much of an improvement on previous campaigns (although 2014 was hysterically bad)?

Scraped past a very limited Tunisia side having faded after a promising opening 20 minutes. Convincingly beat a really poor Panama side. 2nd string lost to a 2nd string Belgium.

I don't believe that England weren't trying to win last night, they just lacked the ability to do so. I think an opportunity has been missed, the first team would have beat that Belgium team and I'd have them heavy favourites against Japan. Who cares if Brazil, France and Argentina are in the same half of the draw? France will likely eliminate Argentina, but both teams are very beatable and Brazil have only been good in patches and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that a fast counter-attacking team like Mexico (or England) could beat them.

Various pundits have been saying after Belgium Team B's win over England Team B - that there was not many from England Team B that have the quality or the experience to really provide alternatives for Gareth Southgate if and when he needs to use them - and that this proves his Team A are really the best players available to him.

They also said they were alarmed with first choice goalkeeper Pickford - saying this was the first time he was tested by a decent side (although a team B Belgium).  He was criticised for a tendency when blocking / saving shots to knock the ball back into the danger zone rather than away to safety.  They were saying any decent side would have seen that and ensure whenever a shot was fired at goal to have strikers running in with the expectation that Pickford will knock the ball back into the penalty area.

It was also mentioned that England lack creative players in the midfield to help unlock well organised strong defences.

Basically they were saying England are currently not good enough quality wise and experience wise to win the World Cup and are likely to be undone by a good team.  Previous English teams with the likes of Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Shearer, Seaman and the like would have had no trouble knocking over most of the teams in this half of the draw.  But of course that was the golden generation and those days have long gone.

All last night did was confirm most of our side for the Colombia game.

No name Bertie wrote:Various pundits have been saying after Belgium Team B's win over England Team B - that there was not many from England Team B that have the quality or the experience to really provide alternatives for Gareth Southgate if and when he needs to use them - and that this proves his Team A are really the best players available to him.

They also said they were alarmed with first choice goalkeeper Pickford - saying this was the first time he was tested by a decent side (although a team B Belgium).  He was criticised for a tendency when blocking / saving shots to knock the ball back into the danger zone rather than away to safety.  They were saying any decent side would have seen that and ensure whenever a shot was fired at goal to have strikers running in with the expectation that Pickford will knock the ball back into the penalty area.

It was also mentioned that England lack creative players in the midfield to help unlock well organised strong defences.

Basically they were saying England are currently not good enough quality wise and experience wise to win the World Cup and are likely to be undone by a good team.  Previous English teams with the likes of Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Shearer, Seaman and the like would have had no trouble knocking over most of the teams in this half of the draw.  But of course that was the golden generation and those days have long gone.

How much did the 'Golden generation' win? Oh aye, Frak all. Its the constant comparing to the generation before that hampers England with the weight of expectation. Its refreshing to see so many people on this forum with both feet planted. England will always compete, but they lack that certain X factor to make them winners. Can this current crop buck the trend? Almost certainly not this time, but who knows where they'll be in 4 years time, its still a very young side.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I mean if the media actually listened to Southgate's reasoning, they would surely understand it. He didn't want to risk guys like Kane in an ultimately pointless game, and also wanted to make sure the backups had played a game so that if they're needed in the knockout rounds, they would have played some actual football in the past three weeks. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Of course the media will jump onto it, because of their old fashioned thinking and "back in my day" nonsense. Hopefully the FA realise Southgate is building something here whatever happens, and gives him time.

Colombia are a slightly harder task than Japan, but this isn't the Colombia of 2014 - especially seeing as at best James Rodriguez is going to be half fit. We *should* be beating them.

As for the starting XI for that game, I don't think anyone last night did themselves any favours and I expect the same starting line up for the first game. Rashford had a chance to prove he should be in ahead of Sterling, but unfortunately slotted it round the post instead of into the bottom corner...

Dead right , Olly...saves me a lot of typing as you've summed it up nicely. Southgate made a sensible choice (in my opinion) to potentially sacrifice a bit of momentum for the significant gains of rest for the "A" team and game time for the reserves. It is always a case of weighing up the pros and cons and obviously the results that
follow will influence how it is seen by the media in general : but I don't think the boss is too fussed about the media views - he is doing what he thinks will give the team the best chance.
The possible future opponents are perhaps less important ( who knows who will really be the hardest to beat , given the patchy form shown by several "big" teams so far ? ) than the fact that this draw gives them an extra day to prepare and likely cooler conditions in Moscow.
I am certainly not dismissing Colombia - even without their star player : I would sooner have faced Japan. But if the team plays up to the best of their efforts from the first two games I think they've a good chance of advancing.
Agree no one firmly booked a spot in the next game , but I think Rose made a bit of a case for himself : very close between him and Young. I'd expect Sterling to start again ; and to be honest I am quite happy to see Rashford kept as an impact sub. I think he will be better for this solid run out.

Quietly confident...

Pretty peeved with England last night, to be honest, and not sharing the euphoria over our tactical genius in finishing second either.

It’s all well and good saying we’ve got a better-looking prospective Quarter Final this way, but many people seem oblivious to the fact that we’ve now got a much more difficult Round of 16 match to navigate just to get to that Quarter Final in the first place. The last twenty-two years and nine tournaments have yielded precisely two knockout game victories for England, against Denmark in 2002 and Ecuador in 2006. I have no idea why anyone would think us deserving of heavy favourite status against Colombia; in fact, in my mind, we’re marginal underdogs in that match. Whereas even I, Mr Doubtful when it comes to all things England, would have backed us to the hilt to beat Japan and at least make sure we’re in the Quarters.

Whoever you play, you want them to be concerned about facing you. Yes, it was a second-string Belgium, but a second-string Belgium still ain’t a bad-looking side on paper and a win would still have carried some cachet due to the name and Belgium being amongst the favourites. Instead we’ve meekly handed over a chunk of our momentum; it’s not all doom and gloom, but losing last night has just pricked at the psyche again and reminded us that, despite the positives of those first two games, it was only Tunisia and Panama, at the end of the day.

It’s a very open-looking World Cup at the moment; many of the established, traditional big guns have looked underwhelming so far, and a couple of them have been downright awful. It’s a bit disheartening, under those circumstances, to see so many England fans (and some within the camp, it would appear) absolutely browning it at the thought of facing Brazil when they look so beatable. There would be no shame in losing to Brazil if we’d made a bit of a statement along the way. But now I’m very worried, as Superfly has alluded to above, at the possibility of our negativity coming back to haunt us, being dumped out in the Round of 16 by Colombia and being left with an overall World Cup which fizzled out after some early promise and, when all’s said and done, didn’t represent all that much progress from our previous few debacles.

Maybe I’m overreacting because, apart from anything else, the actual performance last night in and of itself was so terrible and flat. But I have a pretty bad feeling going in to Tuesday night’s game.

88Chris05 wrote:But I have a pretty bad feeling going in to Tuesday night’s game.

Imagine how Southgate is feeling. Lose this one, and add that to his shocker at 96’, and he’ll be lynched on the runway when he gets home. Did sense a general uneasiness & nervous feeling last night going behind, even though it was essentially a dead-rubber of sorts. The media will hype this up to a World Cup final level of importance, and with Southgate announcing this is our ‘biggest game in a decade’, I imagine the players pants are filling with the brown stuff as we speak. Go 1-0 down early on v Colombia, and I’ll be amazed if they don’t fold, like their predecessors.

As several have said Gareth Southgate was correct in his approach to the Belgium game. He didn't rest all the team A players - for example John Stones & Pickford were played. The fact that John Stones was injured during that match proves one aspect of the Southgate approach was correct - rest the Team A players. John Stones is now a doubt for the Columbia match.

Apart from Harry Kane all other players are more or less like for like. Dele Alli wasn't available because he hasn't fully recovered from an injury. Many of the "Team B" players were experienced in playing in the qualifiers and many expected to have been in the A team anyway.

No, what the match showed was that England are not that good. Only Harry Kane is currently a world class player.

As some others have said - hopefully this team will grow and improve over the next few years.

No name Bertie wrote:As several have said Gareth Southgate was correct in his approach to the Belgium game.  He didn't rest all the team A players - for example John Stones & Pickford were played.  The fact that John Stones was injured during that match proves one aspect of the Southgate approach was correct - rest the Team A players.  John Stones is now a doubt for the Columbia match.

Apart from Harry Kane all other players are more or less like for like.  Dele Alli wasn't available because he hasn't fully recovered from an injury.  Many of the "Team B" players were experienced in playing in the qualifiers and many expected to have been in the A team anyway.

No, what the match showed was that England are not that good.  Only Harry Kane is currently a world class player.

As some others have said - hopefully this team will grow and improve over the next few years.

Depends how we do against Colombia. Win fairly easily and it will have been a masterstroke. Lose or struggle, then it will all be about breaking momentum. To be fair to Southgate last night was always more of a lose lose situation for him.

The biggest worry about last night game to me. Was just how easily the Belgium B team, dictated the pace of the game. And were able to do pretty much what they wanted. Were as considering you think our players wanted to put themselves forward, they did very little.
As others have said we're pretty much a 1st team, with very little behind them.

What yesterday showed was:
Vardy doesn't fit the system - a pure goal scorer whose biggest asset is the pace to run in behind. Kane does a lot more with his back to goal and linking play

The formation needs the two attacking midfielders to make runs beyond the forwards - Alli and Lingard will do this, RL-C and Delph not so much.

Eric Dier is a poor man's Jordan Henderson ;-)

Basically, all the pressure on England is that they’re playing a knockout game in the World Cup. None of the rest matters

Basically. I would have leaned keeping the momentum riding, but 4 days more rest than Colombia might be a difference maker.

Not that it really matters, Southgate would be slaughtered either way if England lose their next game.

Im finding it interesting that all the press and seemingly the English general public think Colombia is the easier route.
I honestly think England will get beaten quite comfortably by them. The main reason being, our defence has looked far from brick wall stuff and the Columbians attacked has been fast and creative.

We have our moments in attack but I think this is a big step up from Tunisia and Panama and I don't think its one we'll win.

And we certainly wont with Sterling in there.

Well, I am keeping both feet firmly on the ground. I will not be hurt or crying should England lose, I do think they will. And yet considering the surprises this World Cup has given us, we might win...I simply doubt it.

Well that was a battle and not the Columbia side I expected to see.

How did they finish the game with 11 men?? Absolutely disgraceful!

Also...how is Deli Alli getting a game when he's clearly not fit or having any influence on a game. And also what dirty photos does Sterling have on Southgate.

My biggest concern is that we are fantastic for around 30 mins, then we seem to lose all impetus.