The Knockout Stages

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The Knockout Stages

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 30 Jun 2018, 10:51 am

First topic message reminder :

Round of 16:

France vs Argentina
Portugal vs Uruguay
Spain vs Russia
Croatia vs Denmark
Brazil vs Mexico
Belgium vs Japan
Sweden vs Switzerland
England vs Colombia

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Pr4wn on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 9:43 pm

Luke wrote:1st off the better side won. They dominated the game and deserve there victory.

2nd England have done well, they've performed better than expected. Got further than expected, disappointing tonight. But the future looks brighter.

Agreed, Croatia were definitely the better team on the night.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Just John on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 9:46 pm

Crying out for creativity, and a ball player. Henderson gave the ball away time and time again. Had no control. Kane had no service pretty much all tournament.

We’ve made progress, but still way short of contending. Still came up short against teams of higher ability, which we hadn’t faced all tournament.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Pr4wn on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 9:48 pm

Alli was anonymous during that game, Rashford was awful too, had no impact whatsoever.

Eric Dier also isn't good enough.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by whocares on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:01 pm

Will be interesting to see how Croatia fares on Sunday. They played the equivalent of an extra game in 2 weeks and France have an extra rest day. They also have been blowing hot and cold since the pool games.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Atila on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:01 pm

Well done England on a great tournament. Before the World Cup started I wouldn't have been surprised if they hadn't made it out of their group so thanks for greatly exceeding my expectations. OK


Just want to add a congratulations to Croatia.


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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:02 pm

Well done Gareth, well done those boys, the moany little wanks can naff off

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GSC on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:11 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well done Gareth, well done those boys, the moany little wanks can naff off

spot on.

Best england team in my lifetime.
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:11 pm

A shame we didn't get that 2nd goal in the 1st half when we were on top, just wasn't to be tonight - first mistake Stones made all tournament got punished. Croatia deserved it based on overall play, but there are plenty of positives to build on for the future - albeit we do need some new players to come through from the youth teams who have been doing well, particularly in midfield
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Riggs on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:12 pm

Proud of the history the boys have made and hopefully more history to come in the near future.

Hold your heads high boys Cool

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Afro on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:26 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well done Gareth, well done those boys, the moany little wanks can naff off

clap they did nothing to warrant the moaning. Far exceeded expectation and the better team tactically and technically on the night won. It’s what happens in sport.
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Riggs on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:27 pm

I'd like to add that should the media spew negative crap about our lads, simply ignore it.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:27 pm

Well done lads..Crostia have players in elite clubs in Europe and are experienced older guys. It makes a difference. .and yet we could have been out of sight within the first 20 mins or so.

Agree we're missing a playmaker and may be a bit of size and power in the midfield.

However...this is a young side with huge potential. Players like Loftus Cheek, Rashford , Pickford , Stones etc will all continue to develop and add in players from the u17 and u20 world cup winning sides..there's real hope.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Riggs on Wed 11 Jul 2018, 10:39 pm

"I want the boys welcomed home as heros", a caller on the BBC.

I also badly want the boys to be welcomed back with mad respect and love from the entire nation.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 12:14 am

Harry Kane is the reason we crashed out. Pathetically selfish and he missed an absolute sitter. All good and well scoring hat tricks against him he also rans but Kane is a long way short of the elite players in the world

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by alfie on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 12:24 am

Well I'm disappointed they couldn't make it to the final of course...especially after that excellent first half. If one or more of those other early chances had gone in ...
But you can always think of an if. As others have said above , Croatia made full use of their experience and skill to boss the second half and much of the ET , and were deserved winners on the day. They're a good team and its no disgrace losing to them.
The only surprise to me was that England's younger team was the one that seemed to tire more ; especially as Croatia had gone to extra time twice. Certainly one or two of England's players seemed to have lost their edge a bit as this game went on... But I'm not into picking them apart today : they've put up a damn good show , exceeded everyone's expectation ; and I think rekindled the love of the nation which has been somewhat lacking in recent years.
Once they get over this disappointment I can see them developing into a team no one will be particularly keen to face in major tournaments.
Been a great journey , sorry it's over , but thanks for the fun , Gareth thumbsup

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Luke on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 12:35 am

[quote="westisbest")

Be an interesting final.

[/quote]

Agree,
Hope Croatia win, would be a fitting end to a good WC, if they could win it for the 1st time. And Rd off a tournament that's been full off shocks.

But think France will be to much. Mbappe's speed will trouble there defence. And Kante and Varane have been emence all tournament.

As I said, it's been a good WC, of which England have fully played there part in. Yes we have our faults (lack of creativity), but they left everything on the pitch tonight. And you can't ask for more than that.
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by owen10ozzy on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 2:08 am

Hate this idea you cant be proud yet negative about England without being a 'moaning/whining insert swear word of choice"...

I am so so proud of what England did in this World Cup..from a performance stand point but most importantly from a team and national stand point. Every single player should come back with heads held up high...

However let's not pretend that their wasn't glaring weaknesses that will unless sorted always stop us making that extra step....lack of creativity...tactically naive (how many times do teams need to me shown that defending for 70+ mins doesn't work) and a lack of confidence to see games outs.

All being said for the first time in 20 yrs odd I am extremely proud of our national team and I hope...lest prey that Jesus

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Luke on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:07 am

Oh I agree Owen

There are some glaring problems on the pitch. The lack of creativity is an obvious one. And when you look at the sides in the PL, it's hard to see where the answer is. There was also a sort of rigidity to the team and a lack of changing position that the top teams don't have. And at times a lack of fluidity to our attacks. As you say, we don't have the players to try and see games out. And I'm not sure of the 3-5-2 system. As our only width is from the wing backs and good teams suss out the space is wide.

As I've said, we've done well, exceeded expectations (possibly over achived), and not left anything on the pitch. Which is all we could have hoped for at the start. The team have done us proud, and ignited the nation.
It's a solid Base with which to build,
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 8:23 am

owen10ozzy wrote:Hate this idea you cant be proud yet negative about England without being a 'moaning/whining insert swear word of choice"...

I am so so proud of what England did in this World Cup..from a performance stand point but most importantly from a team and national stand point. Every single player should come back with heads held up high...

However let's not pretend that their wasn't glaring weaknesses that will unless sorted always stop us making that extra step....lack of creativity...tactically naive (how many times do teams need to me shown that defending for 70+ mins doesn't work) and a lack of confidence to see games outs.

All being said for the first time in 20 yrs odd I am extremely proud of our national team and I hope...lest prey that Jesus

Seems to have worked pretty well for France all tournament... Erm
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by owen10ozzy on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 8:33 am

Difference being France are markedly better than us defensively...and when playing defensive they have Pogba and Kante...two physical and imposing players who are world class...we have...Henderson.

What's the point in having Rashford/Sterling...Lingard...Deli and Kane on pitch if effectively asking them to defend. If your going to see the game out bring off a striker and bring on an extra holding midfielder.


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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 8:36 am

I also don't think we really deliberately sat back either - just Croatia took hold of the midfield once Modric and Rakitic started getting on the ball 2nd half, and Sterling coming off meant we lost our outlet who was getting in behind and getting us up the pitch.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by daraghj82 on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 8:44 am

great overall tournament from England, their 1st good tournament since euro 96 and wc 90, they sat back a bit too deep at times in the 2nd, Ireland does the same on occasions against the so called bigger teams, England needed that 2nd goal in the 1st half but Croatia were very good in the 2nd half

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Just John on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 9:19 am

Once Croatia came to terms with our formation, they dominated the game in that second half, quite easily. We were a shambles second half, and the midfield was exposed at that level. The left hand side was a glaring issue, Alli has been injured all tournament, and Young was just found wanting, against that level of opposition. The same can be said of Henderson too, who lost all control of the game, and couldn’t string one pass together, hence the less than 30% possession second half. Felt sorry for Kane, had zero service all tournament, and with Sterling offering no goal threat, just put even more strain & pressure on him. As for Walker at CB, it was only a matter of time before he would be exposed, similar to his defensive woes against, Iceland.

England didn’t play aesthetically pleasing football. When you see that our best three players in the tournament were Trippier, Maguire and Pickford, it does pinpoint that our midfield needs addressing, and that Kane was horribly isolated. 9 out of 12 goals were set-pieces too.

The semi, and the kind draw allowed us to dream, but as a side, we’re still a considerable way short of actually realistically winning a major trophy.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Uryu Ishida on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 9:27 am

Is it just me or was Trippier invisible in the second half? Did he injure himself early on but kept playing until it got a lot worse?

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by EIWF on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:05 am

Uryu Ishida wrote:Is it just me or was Trippier invisible in the second half? Did he injure himself early on but kept playing until it got a lot worse?

I dont think he was the only one who went missing....

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:14 am

Yeah I agree EIWF, I think a few of the lads lost their way once Croatia took control.

But hey...its all about experience and knowing how to play the game.

We are tactically inexperienced, and theres a few things to tweak in the side.
I think we're missing a big lump (or at least some real physicality) in the central midfield who can dominate. But that will come...some of the lads in the U17 world cup winning side looked huge...lets hope a good for of them make it.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by BamBam on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:19 am

After watching Lovren's interview, I hope the t0sser gets his pants pulled down in the final by Mbappe and co

Two bit useless tw4t who could probably have been sent off in the first half for multiple fouls

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:34 am

What did he say?

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:38 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:What did he say?

Said that people should recognise that he's now one of the best defenders in the world. Utterly deluded Laugh
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Just John on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:41 am

"I think people should recognise that I am also one of the best defenders in the world and not just talk nonsense,"

Unfortunately, we didn't expose him. He's a pile of turd, but if Kane gets zero service, and Sterling just runs around, providing no end product, what else do you expect?

Horribly, unlikable is Lovren, but so are the French. Mbappe already shown he's learnt from Neymar on the art of play-acting and cheating to win. Lucas Hernandez has also been an embarrassment this world cup. I also think Pogba would be unbearable as a World Cup winner. I'd prefer Croatia to win, just for the sake of seeing the French blow back-to-back finals.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GSC on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:58 am

Lovren wiped out Kane and Sterling in the first half when he was straight up beaten
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 11:20 am

So of the starting 11...what needs tweaked for the next Euro Qualifier?

My thoughts:

GK
Pickford - Worth his spot

Centre Backs
McGuire - Made that spot his own
Stones - Has delivered on much of his potential, and will become and even better CB
Walker - Jurys out on him playing CB. His lack of experience in that position cost us in several occasions yet his pace saved us in others.
Other challengers could be Laschelles etc, Should he return to Wing back?

Wing Backs
Trippier - Did well...provides the crosses. Is he better than Walker at Wing back?
Youngs - Just not good enough imo. Need to look elsewhere.

Midfield
Henderson - Jurys out. He's done ok, but im not sure he dominates enough either physically or with quality.
Lindgard - Drifts in and out of games. Shows touches of brilliance then disappears
Ali - Simply not fit, but at the same time see Lingard, Are Lingdard and Ali too similar styles also
Dier - Doesn't add anything when he comes on, not even physical dominance.
Loftus Cheek - Little impact, needs to really progress on in the Prem.

Attackers
Sterling - Lots of graft and workrate defensively which should be be applauded, but very little offensively or end product. Place surely under threat
Kane - Scored the goals, but its difficult to shine always when theres so little supply
Rashford - Little gametime.
Vardy - Wont be in the next squad I wouldn't think

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 12:52 pm

Croatia were the better side and ahead on all stats across the board but yet pundits and interviewers were throwing around daft statements like England dominated. Really?

Anyway massive credit to Gareth Southgate - he is the big success story here. His forward thinking and new approach has nursed England to where they reached. He put together a set of players who played as a TEAM. The squad lacked quality of previous England squads but the team ethic in this squad was unlike England have put together before. In previous tournaments England played as a collection of mavericks and not a team hence they failed to live up to expectations. Also this squad under Southgate have forged a better relationship with the press and been far more relaxed which has helped a great deal. If Southgate can add some more quality players into the side with the correct attitude (lacking prima donna status) and keep this team ethic then things look bright.
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Lowlandbrit on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 1:47 pm

Good comeback by Croatia, but that game should have been over and done with at half-time. Think some players will have sleepless nights about that one.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Luke on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 2:23 pm

Pickford - Had a decent Tournament, still got a mistake in him but coped well. Distribution at times was shocking.

Defence.
Maguire and Stones came of age, played well. Though I worry how many games Stones will play for City next season and weather that will hamper him. Walker's got to many mistakes in him, but has the pace. He would be the one who is most under pressure.

Wing backs.
Trippier - excellent. Great crosses , worked incredibly hard with very little help. Tired badly v Croatia. Would start in either a 5 or 4 for me.
Young- Solid , offered little going forward as kept cutting in, with no support he also tired badly. Deserves to start the euros, qs. But you'd hope that by the euros we'd find someone better.

Midfield.
Henderson was okay, but relying on him to create just isn't his game. Defensively was found out by better movement sides, doesn't impose himself enough for my liking.
Ali- injured most of the tournament so I'm being a little unfair. Passing is poor, unless he making runs behind the attacker offers little. Great work rate, seemed at times him lingard and Sterling were all trying to get to the same space.
Lingard - see above, and that was part of the problem. We had 2 very similar midfielders, that at times seemed to be getting in each others way. Neither are particularly good at the cute balls sometimes needed to open up a defence.

Attack.
Kane - worked hard but had no service, kept dropping deep for the ball when you wanted him upfront. But scores goals (alright most this tournament were penalties), and is a threat.
Sterling - some decent runs, pace to upset defences. Worked hard. His decision making us still fairly poor, didn't move around enough (in go to the wings,switch with Kane etc), seem to stop Ali and Lingard making runs because of this.

Subs
Dier, tempted to use him as a defender. As in midfield his first pass is mostly backwards. Stops any forward movement when on with Henderson.
Rose,good going forward, defensively not sure.
Rashford- if you going to play him, play him up front as he's not a right midfielder. Needs more game time, looks as if he lost the fun and lack of fear he started with.
Vardy - as a sub fine (he would have been my choice to replace Sterling), but that's about it.

Like I said it's a solid Base, and with experience will improve. And with the other younger players in the pl who should be challenging to get in, the futures looking bright.
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 4:26 pm

Team looked Poopie without Sterling went off.

And people can be reflective without being negative wanks, Owen. Some can, some are just moany little wanks though.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Just John on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 5:37 pm

Croatia were on top the whole second half, the goal in the 68th minute had been coming. Sterling was providing nothing in the second half, and was subbed in the 74th minute. Once Croatia adjusted at half time, they dealt with Sterling, and the rest of the England side, with ease. Sterling was effective in the first half, but as usual, he has no end product. His lack of goal threat, and the chances he misses, come back to haunt us against superior sides. Against sides like Sweden, Tunisia and Panama, he can miss those chances, but we still win. That’s the difference, at the business end of a tournament.

By no means is Sterling solely to blame though. The midfield trio doesn’t work, and is more of a glaring issue, in terms of how we go about retaining possession, against sides that can hurt us.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Pr4wn on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 6:35 pm

While England got far in the tournament, and should be proud of their progress, they lost to the only two good teams they played.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Riggs on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 7:38 pm

I wanted to quote a piece from an article.

"England are not yet the finished product. But they have not only written the opening chapters of their new history, but a blueprint for the generation that will follow them." taken from https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/kane-we-have-built-a-great-foundation


Interesting times ahead...

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by catchweight on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 10:41 pm

All things considered, I think the tournament was pretty par for the course for England. We beat the teams we were expected to beat and struggled against the better teams without looking like we would get turmed over either. History will likely forget that though and what counts is that they made a semi final and people will remeber the buzz rather than the teams we played. The Italia 90 side is still folklore even though it had a similarly mediocre path to the semi final with stodgy rather than spectacular performances over the likes of Belgium, cameroon and Egypt.

Some observations -

Southgate has reviltalised the image and the culture of the team but tactically I dont think hes a top coach. Still not rely conviced by the formation or Southgates ability to adjust to the game thats in front.

England had the luxury of a relatively easy draw this year without any kind of expectation on them. Having set a benchmark of a semi final I dont think they will have the luxury of a less pressured environment next time around so it will be interesting to if Southgate can bring them forward when expectations are higher.

The most significant improvement with England has been their threat from set peice. VAR has also benfitted us as defences struggle to deal with the threat without either giving away penalties or running the risk of giving them away. Outside of that though, it still feels like we rely too much on set peices and dont create enough from open play or use the ball well enough.

Kyle Walker cant play effectively the role he is in.

We lack a genuine playmaker that can control the midfield and supply the neccessary creativity to take advantage of the front and wide men.




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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:21 am

So the question...who is the man to take that Playmaker role?

Who is on the horizon that could do that. Is it Shelvey or a current player not in the squad..or one of the kids from the age group winning sides like Phil Foden or someone?

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Riggs on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:25 am

The Playmaker? The midfield magician?

It's good to see this kind of talk.

But what specifically are we looking for?


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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Hero on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:28 am

Foden eventually would be the one I'd be looking at but the lad is still just 18 and has played a handful of games for his club never mind country. Hopefully in the next couple of seasons City will start to use him more as Pep is a massive fan of him.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 10:50 am

I know I'm a Norwich fan so slightly biased, but James Maddison would be one to keep an eye on for that role. Can easily see him having a good season at Leicester and being in the squad by next summer, providing he stays fit.
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:04 am

Riggs wrote:The Playmaker? The midfield magician?

It's good to see this kind of talk.

But what specifically are we looking for?


Probably like a Modric or a Pirlo, The player that makes it all tick.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GSC on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:07 am

Spoiler:
it's not shelvey
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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:08 am

I’m wary that these players aren’t going to be better than Alli, and we’re misunderstanding the role.

It’s a bit deeper, a bit more link between Henderson and the front, and I’m not sure Foden or Maddison are gonna be any more comfortable playing deeper than Alli wants to play.

Wilshere has the ability but he needs to show he’s got the medical records! RLC needs premier league games so he can get there. Chalobah was probably going to make the squad had he had a clear year of prem football. And the Ox would have been very useful, probably a better option than Alli.

Although it’s hard to truly assess this side, with it being their first spell in this system together, and also someone like Alli who has been injured.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Riggs on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:09 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Riggs wrote:The Playmaker? The midfield magician?

It's good to see this kind of talk.

But what specifically are we looking for?


Probably like a Modric or a Pirlo, The player that makes it all tick.


This is prompting me to check England's youth teams for a possible player.

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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:11 am

Hero wrote:Foden eventually would be the one I'd be looking at but the lad is still just 18 and has played a handful of games for his club never mind country. Hopefully in the next couple of seasons City will start to use him more as Pep is a massive fan of him.

I agree Foden looks the most likely at the moment, but then we've seen great hopes fade (like Wilshire) and there can be late developers. So I guess its a wait and see who progresses.

The positive thing is that all the age grades seem to be flourishing, so hopefully this has a positive effect on the national team. We just have to hope that these kids get regular exposure to premiership football or it wont be worth anything.




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Re: The Knockout Stages

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 11:11 am

Who will come in over the next two years?

And the next four?

Foden, Sancho, Bailey, Sessegnon, Mawson, Trent, Chalobah, Maddison, Gomez. Can’t think who I’m missing, obviously those youth squads have had success and one or two would be looking to break through, especially by Qatar

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Re: The Knockout Stages

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