Amlin draw

Here's what's out there:

The draw to decide the Pools for the 2011/12 Amlin Challenge Cup will take place in ERC’s offices on Wednesday, 15th June.

For the purposes of the draw the 20 qualified teams will be divided into four Tiers of five teams each, based on the ERC European Rankings system and on ERC tournament participation over the past four seasons. The teams from each Tier level will then be kept apart in the draw for the Pools.

AMLIN Challenge Cup 2011/12 Teams and Tiers:

TIER 1: Stade Français Paris, Perpignan, London Wasps, Toulon, Sale Sharks
TIER 2: Newport Gwent Dragons, Brive, Newcastle Falcons, Worcester Warriors, Bayonne
TIER 3: Petrarca Padova, Crociati Parma, Rugby Rovigo, Agen, Exeter Chiefs
TIER 4: I Cavalieri Prato, Lyon, Bordeaux-Bègles, Invite 1 – Bucharest Wolves (Romania), Invite 2 – Club Rugby La Vila Comunidad Valencia (Spain)

AMLIN CHALLENGE CUP POOL DRAW FORMAT

Key Principles
There are 20 participating clubs from six countries who will be drawn into five Pools of four teams each.

For the purpose of the draw the 20 qualified and invited teams will be divided into four Tiers of five teams.

The Tiers are based on the ERC European Rankings system over the past four seasons in the Heineken Cup and the knock-out stages of the AMLIN Challenge Cup, and also on participation in the Pool stages of the AMLIN Challenge Cup over the same four season period.

Each Pool will have one team from each of the four Tier levels.

No two teams from the same country will be drawn in the same Pool, except for the sixth, seventh and eight clubs from France who will be drawn into Pools with another French team.

Draw Format
The draw will have four stages starting with the allocation of five teams from Tier 1 and then moving to the next Tier.

During each Tier allocation a team will be drawn and then a Pool number for that team will be drawn from the available Pool options.

Allocation of Tier 1 – All five top Tier teams will be drawn into the five Pool spots available.

Allocation of Tier 2, 3 and 4 – For each Tier allocation the teams will be drawn starting with the teams from the country with the highest number of teams participating in the tournament.

Therefore the order of allocation in each Tier will be teams from France, England, Italy and Wales.
The invited teams from Romania and Spain are in the bottom Tier and will be drawn last.
To avoid having two teams from the same country in the same Pool, teams may be required to be allocated to available Pool spots automatically during the course of the Draw.

As there are eight clubs from France and five Pools, in Tiers 3 and 4 the three French clubs in those Tiers will be drawn into Pools containing French teams.

As there are five clubs from England and five Pools each Pool which will contain only one English club.

European Rankings are available on www.ercrugby.com/europeanrankings

ROUND 1 – 10 / 11 / 12 / 13 November, 2011
ROUND 2 – 17 / 18 / 19 / 20 November, 2011
ROUND 3 – 8 / 9 / 10 / 11 December, 2011
ROUND 4 – 15 / 16 / 17 / 18 December, 2011
ROUND 5 – 12 / 13 / 14 / 15 January, 2012
ROUND 6 – 19 / 20 / 21 / 22 January, 2012
QUARTER-FINALS – 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 April, 2012
SEMI-FINALS – 26 / 27 / 28 / 29 April, 2012
FINAL – 18 / 19 / 20 May, 2012

Seemples!

I thought the Falcons had been kicked out of Europe next season - or is that some other European competition?

No, think they were just fined in the end €25k? Can't remember exactly tho

I quickly skipped over your intro straight to what I thought was an announcement of the pools! I was thinking pool 1 and 2 were looking very tricky, and that I wished the Dragons were in pool 4! Doh!

Note to self: do not skim read or miss out important bits...

Still hoping us Dragons can have a good run in this comp next season.

Newcastle have received a one-year ban from European competition, suspended for five years, and been fined £22,000 by the European Rugby Competition.

So I was right - but still wrong.


Figures!

TrailApe wrote:

Newcastle have received a one-year ban from European competition, suspended for five years, and been fined £22,000 by the European Rugby Competition.

So I was right - but still wrong.


Figures!

Yup, I stand corrected - nothing like a good old pair of suspenders suspended sentence !

As my young mate. I have been told that the way the seeds are set up, that the Dragons have to draw the Chiefs because we have to have a French team from seed 1. I hope this true pal. We are already planning a trip in case and hoping that the rumour is true!!!

Rev, y Dreigiau can only get the Chiefs if they avoid Sale or Wasps from tier 1.

Whatever; I should be heading off into uncharted territory next season if the fixtures fall right. Last time Wasps were in the ECC we had Racing Metro & Bayonne away on Thursday nights

In the European games the rugby is just part of a weekend away. Love it

Why don't they get on with it? You would have though they would go within a day or two of the Heino.

Hound,

I thought we would get Wasps or Sale, but apparently the way the seedings are we have to have a French team from seed 1. It's all straight over my head anyway.

Is it because there are two French sides in Tier 2? They need to go with the two English sides in tier one and that only leaves French sides for the Dragons

Pretty sure that Exe can't draw SU Agen - bit gutted, no trip to see le chef; Dreigiau still a possibility, I think, Rev - fingerS Are croSsed

I think that's it Thunor aye.

All pools must have one English and one French team right? If that's right then the Dragons must have Exeter

As, they can't get Agen, but Bayonne and Bordeaux aren't far from here

We can still get Swanny or Hound,and Rev;some small meet ups in perspective

Draw to be made on Wednesday. Full story here:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/13748880.stm

European Challenge Cup clubs and tiers:

Tier 1 - Stade Francais Paris, Perpignan, London Wasps, Toulon, Sale Sharks

Tier 2 - Newport Gwent Dragons, Brive, Newcastle Falcons, Worcester Warriors, Bayonne

Tier 3 - Petrarca Padova, Crociati Parma, Femi-CZ Rovigo, Agen, Exeter Chiefs

Tier 4 - Cavalieri Prato, Lyon, Bordeaux-Bègles, Bucharest Wolves, Club Rugby La Vila

No disrespect to Sale, but I think they're Tier 1 team most other clubs will be hoping to get. Bayonne are, in my opinion, the Tier 2 team to avoid and I wouldn't be surprised if they qualified for the quarter-finals regardless of who their top seed is (should they take the competition seriously, of course) while Exeter are the toughest of the Tier 3 clubs.

Again, I think the quarter-finals will be dominated by French clubs. Usually an Anglo-French affair (with most Magners' clubs qualifying for the Heineken Cup), the 7th placed English club (Harlequins) has made it into the Heineken Cup, leaving only the weaker English teams in the competition. I can only see a French club from the Amlin or a team dropping down winning it this year.

Toulon or Perpignan to win it then, even with teams dropping down from the HC.

Chances for the Dragons? Could be a worse group.

TBS - Those arent the groups, they are tiers.

Each group will have 1 from Tier 1, 1 from Tier 2 etc

Those aren't the groups, they're not drawn until Wednesday. It's just the tiers (ie Dragons are second seeds). They'll get 1 team from tier 1, 1 team from tier 3 and 1 team from tier 4.

With only the top team qualifying, I'm sure the Dragons will be hoping to get Sale Sharks. Their matches with Wasps last year went with home advantage last year, so they could make it out of a group with Wasps, but I would tip any of Stade, Perpignan or Toulon to get out of a group with the Dragons as second seed.

Can someone explain how this works, I'm a bit confused?! Some people are staying that the Dragons will definitely get Exeter. Why isn't it possible to get, for example, Sale, Dragons, Agen and Bucharest as this would have the required 1 from each tier and 1 English and 1 French team? Or Wasps, Dragons, Padova, Bordeaux???

Ah I've been merged. Sorry, didn't see the original post.

I think the Dragons thing comes down to the French teams. Ignore the exact group numbers, but the draw will pan out as:

Group 1 - Stade
Group 2 - Perpignan
Group 3 - Wasps
Group 4 - Toulon
Group 5 - Sale

Then, due to the way the draw works, Agen, Bordeaux and Lyon, being the lowest ranked three french teams will have to double up with another french team. Therefore, the other two french teams (Brive and Bayonne: who are both second seeds) can't be in with another French team. Therefore Brive and Bayonne will end up in Groups 3 and 5 with the two English clubs. Let's say, for arguements sake:

Group 1 - Stade
Group 2 - Perpignan
Group 3 - Wasps, Brive
Group 4 - Toulon
Group 5 - Sale, Bayonne

Dragons, Falcons and Worcester have to fill in with the three french teams in groups 1, 2 and 4. Again, for arguement's sake, let's say it ends up as:

Group 1 - Stade, Dragons
Group 2 - Perpignan, Falcons
Group 3 - Wasps, Brive
Group 4 - Toulon, Worcester
Group 5 - Sale, Bayonne

All of a sudden, you have 4 English clubs in 4 of the pools, and the fifth English club not yet placed (Exeter). Exeter have to be in the pool without an English club, which will always end up being the Dragons' pool. Because they can't be in the pool with Wasps or Sale (the two English first seeds) and can't be in a pool with Falcons or Worcester (the two English second seeds). They therefore have to be in with the French first seeds (a choice of 3) and the Welsh second seeds, who are the Dragons.

Robbo, you're a star! Cheers for the explanation. That does make sense to me now. Exeter will be a tough ask for the Dragons (arguably more of a tier 2 team than a tier 3), but it is an away trip that I wanted so I'm happy with that.

However, that does mean that we won't get Sale from Tier 1 (not going to be easy, but maybe a bit easier than some of the others). We could therefore end up with a very tough group!

Griff, I agree. Any group with one of the 3 French top seeds and Exeter is just about the worst possible scenario, but Dragons have it guaranteed for them! Exeter don't have any ERC points (I don't think) because they've only qualified for one season of European rugby in the previous 4 years (because they've been in the Championship) and they didn't progress in the Amlin, which is why they're seeded lower.

Yeah, I thought that might be the reason Exeter were ranked pretty low as it is worked out on 4 years previous performance.

I think a lot of us Dragons fans were hoping for a run to the semis like we got a few years back, but our away form is so shaky that having teams like Perpignan, Stade or Toulon plus Exeter will be a huge ask. Exeter themselves will realistically be targetting at least a 1/4 final spot so the Dragons will be in for a tough time!

Griff, It will be good to welcome the Dragons to Sandy Park, and I'm looking forward to the return trip to Dave Parade - will be catching up with Rev, Rhino and Luckless at the very least

As, yep looking forward to Sandy Park. A group of us were emailing yesterday about our dream 'travelling group' and we all wanted Exeter (my dream travelling group would be Perpignan, Dragons, Exeter, Cavalieri). Exeter is pretty close, we'll all be able to go (out of my group of Dragons mates) and is a good night out according to a couple of the boys who went to Uni in Plymouth.

This is in stark contrast to my dream 'rugby chances of progressing to the 1/4's' group which would be something like (and not even possible now thanks to Robbo's explanation): Sale (no offence!), Dragons, Padova, Lyon!

Griff, excellent, that would be an ideal group I think too - get in touch by PM nearer the time, and I can help sort you out with accommodation, etc.

Cheers As, nice of you to offer. Will be in touch!

I would say that Perpignan or Toulon would be seen as faves for this comp at the moment.

Perp have a very good HC pedigree while Toulon has the money.

Still hope us Dragons can have a good run in this competition, like it or not this definately our current level and it's better than always propping up the group in the HC.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I would say that Perpignan or Toulon would be seen as faves for this comp at the moment.

Perp have a very good HC pedigree while Toulon has the money.

Still hope us Dragons can have a good run in this competition, like it or not this definately our current level and it's better than always propping up the group in the HC.

Much depends on who gets creamed off from the HCUP

Mick,

Thats why I said 'at the moment' Yes it depends who drops down but then again most would have had Munster as one of faves just gone and I doubt many would have given Quins a chance (other than Quins fans)

Not long to go now - Why dont we pick our dream groups and groups of death!

As mentioned earlier, one pool will have a French top seed, Dragons and Exeter, and that will surely be the group of death. especially if they get a second French team as well.

A group with Wasps, Bayonne and a second french team would be tricky as would a group with a French top seed, Newcastle and a second french team.

The "softest" group possible, in my opinion, would be Sale, Brive and no second French team.

[quote="robbo277"]As mentioned earlier, one pool will have a French top seed, Dragons and Exeter, and that will surely be the group of death. especially if they get a second French team as well.
quote]

Robbo, very true - am holding out for Prato, quite fancy the trip to Firenze!

Hopefully looking forward to 3 away trip. Toulon, exeter and Prato would all be possible. No offence to Exeter, but the cote d'azur and Florence could be great weekends away!

What, you don't fancy a night out in Tor-bados?!?!

Definateky. Wasn't having a dig (living in Newport I can hardly criticise another town), just hoping for a couple of overseas trips, but as I can gather we'll be playing Exeter so I could be making 3 trips in the a amlin.

No worries, just pulling yer plonker, couldn't think of anything worse than a night out in Torquay!

I can. A night out in the port. The wetherspoons capital of the world!!!!

Newport is beautiful and I'd recommend it to anyone. Yes, you get some unsavoury characters, but it's been blown out of proportion. I've only been hospitalised once!

It's done:

Pool 1: Stade Francais Paris, Worcester Warriors, Crociati Parma, Bucharest Wolves
Pool 2: Toulon, Newcastle Falcons, Petrarca Padova, Lyon Rugby
Pool 3: London Wasps, Bayonne, Femi-CZ Rovigo, Bordeaux-Begles
Pool 4: Perpignan, Newport Gwent Dragons, Exeter Chiefs, Cavalieri Prato
Pool 5: Sale Sharks, Brive, Agen, Club de Rugby La Vila

Chuffed tae bits - Newport, Florence and Perpignan (obviously in that order of cultural importance!! )

Florence? Is that where Cavalieri Prato play? That's a hell of an away destination!

Just outside, Lucky, spitting distance

Exeter's picturesque itself - I visited my sister there a few times when she was studying.

This thread now locked - discussion thread now the draw has been made here:

https://www.606v2.com/t7198-amlin-cup-groupings-discussion-thread