England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

First topic message reminder :

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

If I could be arsed, I would look up the quotes from Scots after the France game and Weegies (?) during much of the second half of the season to highlight times his own Fans wanted Russell far from the team.

He can do some great stuff, but imo is no more creative than Cipriani or Ford.

Cokanasiga sounds like he's had another good game anyone see it?

Marler has pulled out of the AIs for personal reasons and Eddie Jones has called up Exeter's Ben Moon as a replacement.

Real shame as Marler has looked in far better form this season then last, he's been strong in the scrum and very physical in defense.

SO Farrell or Ford at 10?

Judging by Saracens result v Gloucester...Farrell?

10 Farrell
12 Williams
13 Slade

There you go

yappysnap wrote:Marler has pulled out of the AIs for personal reasons and Eddie Jones has called up Exeter's Ben Moon as a replacement.

Real shame as Marler has looked in far better form this season then last, he's been strong in the scrum and very physical in defense.

Is Marler out of the autumn or just the training squad?

Just this training camp.

Schonert, Manu and Youngs also miss out after picking up minor knocks today. Olowofela joins Moon in being added to the party.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/moon-called-into-england-training-squad/

LondonTiger wrote:If I could be arsed, I would look up the quotes from Scots after the France game and Weegies (?) during much of the second half of the season to highlight times his own Fans wanted Russell far from the team.

He can do some great stuff, but imo is no more creative than Cipriani or Ford.

Can definitely see Jones going for cyps, especially with Mitchell on board, an unabashed Carlos spencer fan, and between they like a bit of the unorthodox, go against the grain renegade type players.

They could bring the very best out of cyps where others havent at test level. As long as the lock the liqour cabinet.

LondonTiger wrote:Just this training camp.

Schonert, Manu and Youngs also miss out after picking up minor knocks today. Olowofela joins Moon in being added to the party.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/moon-called-into-england-training-squad/

Well who ever wouldve guessed that would happen

Sounds like the cover call ups are along the lines of "one for the futrure" rather than relaistic contenders to accidentaly get into a matchday squad even in the event of a full blown injury crisis.

We'll see what comes out of Leicester over the next couple of days. "Niggle" is the term being used at current. And it's probably best that a player with a niggle doesn't go to an Eddie Jones training camp, especially one with Manu's recent record of injuries.

To be honest I think Slade should be given that 13 spot anyway.

He's playing exceptionally well. His running is improving for that spot, but his game management from there is looking very good...certainly from what I saw on Friday night up here at KP.

At times he took control with some wonderful territorial kicks / management etc. Something Toby Flood was severely lacking and has for a while. Play the game In the right areas.
He certainly looks physical enough and generally had an air of authority that I haven't seen from him before.
He hasn't quite taken the chances before but I think I'd like to see him go at 13 in the AI's.

I'm sorry but Ford, Farrell, Slade as a midfield just fills me with meh.

Three guys, all with the same skillset, all with marginal differences in that skillset but nothing to really change up an attack. And none of them imo an international 13.

Russell has worked best for Scotland when he has Laidlaw inside him. It's all about the balance of control and invention. It was the same with the Youngs / Ford and Care / Farrell pairings in the run-up to 2015 (and why Lancaster couldn't see it I will never know).

As for Cipriani, he was pretty dire on Sunday, albeit in a team that was being badly beaten.

yappysnap wrote:I'm sorry but Ford, Farrell, Slade as a midfield just fills me with meh.

Three guys, all with the same skillset, all with marginal differences in that skillset but nothing to really change up an attack. And none of them imo an international 13.

But where do we go Yappy?

13...Manu seemingly injured again (he's pulled out of the training squad) and not really making much impact on Sunday.
How has marchant played?
Slade is the only player actually playing at 13 and playing well.

12...Farrell?
T'eo?
Who else is there? Only one player has stood out for me and that's Johnny Williams...but he's only 21 and surely not ready to be dropped in to internationals.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I'm sorry but Ford, Farrell, Slade as a midfield just fills me with meh.

Three guys, all with the same skillset, all with marginal differences in that skillset but nothing to really change up an attack. And none of them imo an international 13.

But where do we go Yappy?

13...Manu seemingly injured again (he's pulled out of the training squad) and not really making much impact on Sunday.
How has marchant played?
Slade is the only player actually playing at 13 and playing well.

12...Farrell?
T'eo?
Who else is there? Only one player has stood out for me and that's Johnny Williams...but he's only 21 and surely not ready to be dropped in to internationals.

Lozowski regularly plays 13, but again is another playmaker type. Te'o could play 13 or 12 if they wanted a bit more bulk in there.
But yes without JJ England do lack an electric option at 13, short of moving Daly off the wing ( which would most likley only be done during late game replacements shuffling)
And Slades tactical kicking game is less important when you have playmakers at 10 and 12 and wings with kicking games.

And with Daly at 15.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And with Daly at 15.

I was assuming he'd be wing and Brown 15. But the general point stands, England have a lot of footballers in their backs (also Nowell, May ... and Youngs is known for his box kicks). It does follow the Australian stereotype of flexible backs with all round skills.
For the most part its worked out pretty well for England and makes a change from the one dimensional players of the past but equally they do seem to lack pace and power in the midfield unless you pretend Tuillagi is fit and its 2010. Add in the shortage of ball carrying forwards (BV aside) and its hard to see how they wear down defensives

Tuilagi te'o cokanasiga appear to be the backs chosen for that task.

And before them Yarde and Solomena. Also didn't he pick Earl one time in a squad. Few powerful guys out there.

I'm guessing no chance the injuries might be exaggerated? I hope we haven't sunk that far yet, but one does wonder. Not that I'm making any accusations of course, but it did cross my mind with EJ's reputation in training camps!

NonReturnableBottle2 wrote:I'm guessing no chance the injuries might be exaggerated? I hope we haven't sunk that far yet, but one does wonder. Not that I'm making any accusations of course, but it did cross my mind with EJ's reputation in training camps!

Schonert looked crocked when he left the pitch.

However Youngs merely looked out of form and Manu looked tired. They probably do have very minor niggles, which would not prevent them playing this weekend, but would be a risk at an EJ training camp. After all Ellis Genge arrived with England at the end of last season with a niggle in his knee, and a Jones beasting left him needing surgery and 8 months of rehab.

I thought there were going to be advisers/monitors at the camps from the AP club's to stop that kind of thing?

I'm hoping Mitchell has some say in these training camps and makes them more sensible

If we were to serious about these extended training camps we should be inviting the three best players on their positions each round based on form and fitness. This would clear up any grey areas as players know where they are. Some pundits Think this training squad will not reflect the AI squad. Surely this is wasting time and not cohesive in any way?

My view is that these training camps are simply that. They have 1st team starters, Fringe players / Youngsters pushing for a place and even younger kids (England U20 for example) nowhere near the England team but with immense potential.

All the players are monitored and given instructions to go off and work on with their clubs. I like the idea, because the seniors can be pushed and evaluated and the kids can be assessed and identify what they need to be working on.

However at this stage, I do feel the first team sessions need to be together as a key squad for the AI's and heading on to the WC. And I suspect they are.

PS I see Mitchel is not in SA, hes in the thick of training already.

Comments on B Vunipola fitness which personally think is good now bar the obvious arm breaks! He's after a taller blind side for the lineout who carries well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Comments on B Vunipola fitness which personally think is good now bar the obvious arm breaks! He's after a taller blind side for the lineout who carries well.

Zach Mercer, please stand up...

Yeah Mercer or Shields would fit that bill...or Ewers, Or Armand....

Ewers wouldn't in terms of mobility. Thinks he's a touch too slow myself. Mercer could be the guy at present. Would make a young back row if curry is there but is a real leader and an intelligent player should we be looking to shift quickly from a breakdown in attack or.defence.

I don't think Jones has completely ditched the idea of Itoje/Lawes on the flank - especially if Kruis gets back to the form he showed at the start of Jones' tenure.

Just listened to Brian Moore's podcast. His guest Ben Coles said Dan Cole's absence is confirmation for him that you can't read too much into this squad, as Cole is a definite match day squad player. Moore disagreed, saying Cole isn't doing enough to be selected.

Moore's stance is that, even when we've chosen the pack which is supposed to be our best scrum, we have looked below average by the standards of other international packs. For that reason, he sees no advantage in playing set piece specialists, who offer little else, since England don't seem to get any benefit from them.

I would agree in that Cole offers nothing much around the pitch these days. He used to be a beast at the breakdown getting turnovers etc...now he does little to nothing.

7.5
I agree about Ewers that ship has sailed to be fair. I would happily see Mercer in there at 6.

Jamie Gibson would fit the bill as well, different sort of player from Mercer, but a lineout specialist and very mobile flanker with a great work rate.

Falls into great club pro for me.

I think Mercer is the youngster with real potential and should be first in line.

But do you match him with Curry at 7 or the more powerful Underhill?

I think we are all going to be surprised at Eddie continuing some of his SA selections. Brown to stay on the wing even if we all agree he should not be. Probably Slade at 13 and even though I like him I also agree that the blend with Ford and Farrell is Meh. Dan Cole to miss out, which on form I think is fair. Billy and Curry at 7 with ?? at 6.

Injuries continue to make life difficult and having a fit and on form Manu or T'eo would make a huge difference. Intriguing times.

So 1 win from 4 sounds about right.....

Which game are we winning and why then king. Spell it out.

hugehandoff wrote:I think we are all going to be surprised at Eddie continuing some of his SA selections. Brown to stay on the wing even if we all agree he should not be. Probably Slade at 13 and even though I like him I also agree that the blend with Ford and Farrell is Meh. Dan Cole to miss out, which on form I think is fair. Billy and Curry at 7 with ?? at 6.

Injuries continue to make life difficult and having a fit and on form Manu or T'eo would make a huge difference. Intriguing times.

I am not convinced that a an on form and fit T'eo would be anything special. He has always looked like an average club player at best.

He does seem to step up for international games though

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/107348412/john-mitchell-believes-england-can-usurp-all-blacks-as-worlds-best-within-a-year?rm=m

but hang on, isnt this what eddie said two years go about this year?

Now the goalposts are shifting again?

Wish these guys'd make their minds up.

Realistically, the only way anyone is going to overtake the All Blacks is for New Zealand to drop points.

Interestingly, two teams NZ do lose to on occasion - Australia and France - are both curently 7th and 8th in the rankings, and over 10 points adrift. You'd still bet on NZ wins in both upcoming matches but any slip up could take bites out of their points total. Ireland is the only team positioned to take advantage, provided they don't drop points themselves in matches against Italy and Argentina.

Rugby Fan wrote:Realistically, the only way anyone is going to overtake the All Blacks is for New Zealand to drop points.

Interestingly, two teams NZ do lose to on occasion - Australia and France - are both curently 7th and 8th in the rankings, and over 10 points adrift. You'd still bet on NZ wins in both upcoming matches but any slip up could take bites out of their points total. Ireland is the only team positioned to take advantage, provided they don't drop points themselves in matches against Italy and Argentina.

You do realise that France has lost the last 14 straight to NZ? Theyll slip up because of something that happened in 2009 or earlier? Many would be in that boat if thats the case.

Not saying they wont but it wont be for that reason. They must have beaten every 6 N side since then. Does that translate to beating Ireland or England as well?

Do people actually take these announcements seriously....dear lord.

yappysnap wrote:He does seem to step up for international games though

Yeah it is not always about how good a player is it's how well he fits into a system. Te'o can be a bit 'meh' but then he does truck the ball up well and he doesn't really have brain farts. He tends to do the right thing.

Being widely reported that Joe Marler is retiring from international rugby.

Sugar. Personal reasons, hope all his family are ok.

That definitely weakens us, I rate him as a better scrummager than Mako.  I mean who is the second choice loosehead now? The alternatives have a hand full of caps between them.  

Who else is there? Stone Genge? Alec Hepburn? Nathan Catt? Beno Obano? Val Rapava-Ruskin?

If Mako gets injured any time soon...   I am not exactly enthused.

A shame to see Marler retire from international rugby but if your head isn't in it for whatever reason then it's the correct decision. The extent to which he improved his scrummaging in a short space of time when he came into international rugby was very impressive. From a squad perspective he offered a tactical alternative to Mako and strong depth.

Genge would be my next choice, but he's currently injured. Beno Obano probably next after that but he's recovering from ligament and hamstring tendon damage that could see him miss the whole season. Interestingly both injuries were sustained during England training sessions - something that has been highlighted many times during EJs reign.

Rapava-Ruskin is a cracking young player, very strong in the scrum. Personally I'd rate him on par with Hepburn and better than Catt.

Ben Moon has been called into the training squad however. He's been a solid player in a very strong Exeter set-up but he's a prop I'd put firmly in the 'solid prem player' bracket.

Waller anyone?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Waller anyone?

What is this? 2014? We have other players to hype up now!