England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

First topic message reminder :

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

propdavid_london wrote:Its a training squad - I would assume that most of these guys are there because the coaches want to give some feedback or check their medical progress etc.

I guess the only issue for those not being included in the squad is the new defensive coach! If he wants to implement new systems or tactics then it would be a disadvantage for anyone not invited to these camps.

Surely this won't make much difference if they want to fit Cipriani in...

Eddie Jones has said Cipriani is not in for form reasons. He said Ford is playing better than him and Farrell will feature more at 10.

With Te'o and Tuilagi and Lozowski and Slade in the squad, Ford and Farrell could well be the 10 options with Eddie looking to partner up one of the bigger guys with one of the second playmakers.

Bet Cips wished he'd gone to France for a big pay day

Can't help but feel EJ is assuming Manu won't break again. And that he shares the past sentiment that Manu is our missing ingredient, and that we can build our game around him. In 2012 Manu was all these things. In 2018 I don't share his optimism.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Can't help but feel EJ is assuming Manu won't break again. And that he shares the past sentiment that Manu is our missing ingredient, and that we can build our game around him. In 2012 Manu was all these things. In 2018 I don't share his optimism.

It will be interesting to see how he goes. I'm not sure if Eddie is relying on him or just keen to get him involved. He's definitely someone you want to have around camp a year before the World Cup because of what he could do, but at the same time you can't trade on past glories and when he gets into camp he'll have to prove himself like any other.

How Eddie lines up for that first test will be telling. Will he go Ford/Farrell with a big guy at 13? Or go for Ford/Farrell with Slade or Lozowski at 13 and his power coming from the bench? Or will he pick between Ford and Farrell and put one of his big guys in at 12 from the start.

From his comments I think the latter, but if he has Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12 then he's shown he wouldn't need fly half cover on the bench, so might be happy to continue with those two and look at Te'o or Manu as his finisher.

The game has moved on since 2012 and Tuilagi was peaking, its much faster and players need to be more aware of support play. You can't base your back play around some one so injury prone as Tuilagi and Vunpola is creeping into that label also.

rosbif wrote:The game has moved on since 2012 and Tuilagi was peaking, its much faster and players need to be more aware of support play. You can't base your back play around some one so injury prone as Tuilagi  and Vunpola is creeping into that label also.

Lets just say he has a lot to prove. He should not get a free pass into the team.

Manu got different things hurt, some of which were just down to horrendous luck. If he still has the pace (and there is evidence he does) then with a little luck and plenty of playing hours we might end up with a very useful player again. He's not an old guy by any means.

In some ways I am more worried about Billy, as he keeps on hurting the same arm..

rosbif wrote:The game has moved on since 2012 and Tuilagi was peaking, its much faster and players need to be more aware of support play. You can't base your back play around some one so injury prone as Tuilagi  and Vunpola is creeping into that label also.

Manu looks leaner and quicker than we've seen him in years. He's also looking a lot happier attacking weak shoulders on the gain line with Ford flat passes. It's a large difference to the give Manu and let him truck into contact of prior seasons. Hopefully the intense regime he undertook to strengthen his knees and hamstrings over the summer will continue to pay dividends, there's none of the mountain of strapping he had on his legs last season and he does away to score from halfway against the Falcons.

The actual squad is picked some time in Oct (after Europe maybe?) So players still have a good chance to play their way into it. I see this more as a chance for Eddie to look at some possibles and refresh the minds of some other old hands.

Some players probably just dont need another beating from him either eg Cole. Will be interesting to see if the new restrictions set by the club's does help stop the rate of injuries at these camps.

Also the guy with the most to prove is our new defence coach. I dont think anyone in the public or media was particularly impressed with his selection by EJ so England had better defend well or we may need another new coach.

Rugby writer Alex Shaw has pointed out that Marcus Smith is also missing from the squad.

I presume Eddie has already given a lot of thought to how his World Cup squad will be composed - in terms of positional cover rather than actual personnel - so that is likely a big factor in determining who gets a shot in these camps.

In 2015, Jones only took two recognised hookers in his Japan squad. Wales did the same. Potentially, that was a high risk strategy, since every match day squad requires two hookers, and it was unclear what would happen if one went down before a match and couldn't be replaced in time. Wales said they would use Jarvis as a last resort but Japan didn't even have anyone who could convert at short notice.

With the game being increasingly attritional, and Hartley a concussion risk, you'd think Jones would go for three, and yet he's only got two in the training squad. That might be how he plans to go into the tournament.

He has, however, got three scrum halves, when he sepnt a long time just using two. Perhaps the experience of losing Youngs has made him more conscious of the need to have a third option up-to-speed, otherwise he'd have to fall back on Wigglesworth again, which you feel he didn't find to be a rewarding exercise.

How many fly halves do you need? Lancaster named just Ford and Farrell but he also had Alex Goode and Henry Slade, who were both playing occasionally at 10 for their clubs that season.

Slade hasn't played 10 for a while now. He could do it in an emergency, but you probably wouldn't want to rely on him there. Alex Goode isn't anywhere near the England squad. Instead, Lozowski is the other potential fly half cover.

Does the World Cup squad need a third starting fly half, or is that an individual we would just need on standby? If the latter, then there's not a lot of reason for Jones to include Cipriani or Smith at this stage.

Rugby Fan wrote:Rugby writer Alex Shaw has pointed out that Marcus Smith is also missing from the squad.

I presume Eddie has already given a lot of thought to how his World Cup squad will be composed - in terms of positional cover rather than actual personnel - so that is likely a big factor in determining who gets a shot in these camps.

In 2015, Jones only took two recognised hookers in his Japan squad. Wales did the same. Potentially, that was a high risk strategy, since every match day squad requires two hookers, and it was unclear what would happen if one went down before a match and couldn't be replaced in time. Wales said they would use Jarvis as a last resort but Japan didn't even have anyone who could convert at short notice.

With the game being increasingly attritional, and Hartley a concussion risk, you'd think Jones would go for three, and yet he's only got two in the training squad. That might be how he plans to go into the tournament.

He has, however, got three scrum halves, when he sepnt a long time just using two. Perhaps the experience of losing Youngs has made him more conscious of the need to have a third option up-to-speed, otherwise he'd have to fall back on Wigglesworth again, which you feel he didn't find to be a rewarding exercise.

How many fly halves do you need? Lancaster named just Ford and Farrell but he also had Alex Goode and Henry Slade, who were both playing occasionally at 10 for their clubs that season.

Slade hasn't played 10 for a while now. He could do it in an emergency, but you probably wouldn't want to rely on him there. Alex Goode isn't anywhere near the England squad. Instead, Lozowski is the other potential fly half cover.

Does the World Cup squad need a third starting fly half, or is that an individual we would just need on standby? If the latter, then there's not a lot of reason for Jones to include Cipriani or Smith at this stage.

The reason for including Cipriani in the squad is that he is head and shoulders a better player than the other two especially Ford who is woeful unless he is behind a super dominant pack and who is a defensive liability.

Could his decision to exclude Cipriani be to appease Farrell?
We know Faz likes to run the backline and wee Ford lets him.
We saw in the SA match how stroppy Owen got when Cips ignored him to put the grubber in for the score.
Could Jones be trying to keep Farrell happy as he sees him as a big influence on the team?
Or is that just cobbler's

Jones tends not to duck tough conversations or what's best for the team. And Farrell wants to win at all costs so the 2nd option.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones tends not to duck tough conversations or what's best for the team. And Farrell wants to win at all costs so the 2nd option.

Yeah he doesn't strike me as the type to want to appease anyone, although I suspect he can be more astute on man management than we would expect.

Well Jones has been adamant that hes not selected Cipriani because he doesnt think hes playing well enough, not because of any of the off the pitch stuff or his relationships with other players. Also that the door isnt closed to him and that he could theoreticaly get in the side still if he plays better in the coming weeks.  

This could be:
Straight up truth
Straight up lies and his exclusion was down to his disruptive influence and ability to get in ther papers for the wrong reasons
Or some ridiculous attempt at psychology to see if he can get a reaction for Cipriani to push himself even harder ( and stay sober)

Either way I just dont think EJ has ever rated him that highly. He did everything in his power to ignore him till Ford started carrying the can for Englands losing streak.

robbo277 wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Can't help but feel EJ is assuming Manu won't break again. And that he shares the past sentiment that Manu is our missing ingredient, and that we can build our game around him. In 2012 Manu was all these things. In 2018 I don't share his optimism.

It will be interesting to see how he goes. I'm not sure if Eddie is relying on him or just keen to get him involved. He's definitely someone you want to have around camp a year before the World Cup because of what he could do, but at the same time you can't trade on past glories and when he gets into camp he'll have to prove himself like any other.

How Eddie lines up for that first test will be telling. Will he go Ford/Farrell with a big guy at 13? Or go for Ford/Farrell with Slade or Lozowski at 13 and his power coming from the bench? Or will he pick between Ford and Farrell and put one of his big guys in at 12 from the start.

From his comments I think the latter, but if he has Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12 then he's shown he wouldn't need fly half cover on the bench, so might be happy to continue with those two and look at Te'o or Manu as his finisher.

Id see in more on Robbos view.
This is just a training squad, theres quite a few centers in there ( Slade/Lozo/Teo all capable of playing 12 or 13 plus Farrel at 12) and the only notable absentee is the injured Joseph. Its not like anyones really been left out for him (well I gues there couldve been another fly half but *cough*). At best 3 of the 5 will make the matchday side.
EJ has always wanted Tuialligi (2010-2012 version) in his side. Hes also still a player that opposition coaches and ex-players talk about (2010-2012 version) and has shown some glimpses of stiull having it, even if hes lost and edge of pace. Theres space for him to be involved, but I do agree its a still wishful thinking (and maybe an area England lack stand out options) thats hes genuinely the force he was.

It would be interesting to know - but we never will - what Jones would have done, if Matt O'Connor had stayed at Leicester, and Ford continued to look out of sorts.

There's no denying that Ford has looked good the last two weeks, so it must have been tempting for Jones to stick with him, given that he knows how he plays. Arguably, getting his centre pairing right is a more important challenge, so he might have wanted to limit changes at 10, just to get a better handle on those permutations.

That wouldn't mean Cipriani is persona non grata, just that, in a straight shoot-out with Ford, then an in-form Ford currently gets the nod.

If that's true, then the Test to watch this autumn is against Japan. If Jones decides to give Slade or Lozowski time at 10 instead of Cipriani, then the only hope for the Gloucester man is for Ford to get injured, or for him go through the same kind of hesitant run of form we saw last season.

Still think Farrell spat his dummy and told Jones he couldn't pick Cips or he would go home and take the Saracens with him.

carpet baboon wrote:Still think Farrell spat his dummy and told Jones he couldn't pick Cips or he would go home and take the Saracens with him.

I don't think Jones takes well to being threatened by anybody.

Aside from that, we know that Jones approached Andy Farrell about taking a coaching job with England. Hard to see him doing that if the same man's son was handing out ultimatums.

Rugby Fan wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Still think Farrell spat his dummy and told Jones he couldn't pick Cips or he would go home and take the Saracens with him.

I don't think Jones takes well to being threatened by anybody.

Aside from that, we know that Jones approached Andy Farrell about taking a coaching job with England. Hard to see him doing that if the same man's son was handing out ultimatums.

Sorry should have added these

So we win 1 game this autumn. I think we'll be looking at Mitchell taking us to the WC at this rate.

kingelderfield wrote:So we win 1 game this autumn.

Maybe, but not because of this selection of players (for a training camp). We can argue about players till the cows come home, but differing selections would not make any difference.

Clean sweep I think. Ireland to also beat nz.

Comedy central.....you'll be surprised the number wood burning novices dont know to clean their chimneys.
Excellent advice 7 1/2

Well wait and see eh king.

On an aside gf s pick of jonny williams; I see why you like him based on that 1st half.

Slade continues to look good....maybe not to the level of last week but the whole Chiefs side are a few notches down compared......and with that hes been subbed.
All these squad selection shenanigans are a bit of a distraction really. EJ much like May is just a passenger......we'll wait and see.

May? The winger who has looked consistently class.for england for about 18 months? I worry about you sometimes king.

No 7&1/2 wrote:May? The winger who has looked consistently class.for england for about 18 months? I worry about you sometimes king.

Well you know, ...'Wade'......

That woman from Sonning......as one of the wiser people i know calls her.
Not road runner.

Yikes. Copying beshocked now. At least wade is better than topsy ojo Ypu once called for when doing your regular sweepstake.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well wait and see eh king.

On an aside gf s pick of jonny williams; I see why you like him based on that 1st half.

Hes a player who can make things happen...and is a strong defender . 21year old...one to watch. Probably won't be with us long ..he'll go to a top side.

Also tonight Hammersley looked like the player who burst on the scene a few years back.

kingelderfield wrote:Slade continues to look good....maybe not to the level of last week but the whole Chiefs side are a few notches down compared......and with that hes been subbed.
All these squad selection shenanigans are a bit of a distraction really. EJ much like May is just a passenger......we'll  wait and see.

I would like to think that was alot down to the falcons playing well.

Many of Exeters England hopefuls found a battling falcon opposite them. Slade did look very calm and assured though.

Him and Johnny Williams in the centres...now that would be fun....

For clarification and 7's pedantry, the 'May' I was referring to is the PM not our chum(p) of Welford road fame.
My point was I believe the job is now beyond EJ and like it or not he is just a passenger along for the ride until he either gets thrown off the bus, the bus crashes or stalls at the lights....He is nolonger driving the bus...get it? Just like the PM, Teresa May!

From the Guardian. With a player who has spent much of the last 18 months injured, a worry.

Owen Farrell comes into the Saracens side to line up directly opposite Cipriani but Billy Vunipola is absent. Saracens have said the No 8 is missing due to “a prearranged medical procedure” which is not thought to be serious.

Ah not confusing on a rugby thread at all king! You've been down on jones since he started amd took us on a record equalling running run though. Until we get someone who will pick wasps players across the side I suspect no one will be good enough!
The other side to the coin London is that they are phasing him back to an extent. Still one of potential world class players so we do need him back amd firing to reach the heights we can.

kingelderfield wrote:For clarification and 7's pedantry, the 'May' I was referring to is the PM not our chum(p) of Welford road fame.
My point was I believe the job is now beyond EJ and like it or not he is just a passenger along for the ride until he either gets thrown off the bus, the bus crashes or stalls at the lights....He is nolonger driving the bus...get it? Just like the PM, Teresa May!

I get that now - but you can see where the confusion might lie

A we question for you england fans given the debate about Cipriani. If Russell was english do you think Jones would give him a game? We all know he is flawed but is capable of things that the various england 10s even cipriani is simply not able to do. He is thought highly enough of that Racing are paying him £700 000 a year + bonuses.

But would Jones pick him? Capable of both winning you games and loosing them. Will create scoring chances that none of the English tens could, will make more mistakes in a match than Farrell would do all season.
Thoughts?

TJ wrote:..If Russell was english do you think Jones would give him a game?...

I think yes, not least because he's younger than Cipriani. It's always difficult to make that kind of comparison, though, because players are all on their own development path. We know about Russell because of his performances with Glasgow and Scotland. If he was in the English game, and had been playing for Worcester for the last few years, then it would be harder to judge his worth.

He'd have probably have been capped but not a regular. Better English options tbh.

Russell is hardly setting the Top14 alight. Racing are struggling and I don’t think Russell has featured much. Russell can’t control a game. That won’t be too important in France though if Racing give him a chance as the scrum half is much more important.

I wouldn’t put Russell in the top 8 fly halves in the NH.

I am not sure that Russell is more creative than Cipriani but he is certainly more prone to make very bad decisions. Perhaps that is because he is younger.

I cannot see Jones capping him if he was English if he will not give Cipriani a run of games. On the other hand I really cannot see why any potential England manager would cap Russell.

Russell played the first couple of games for racing, scored a bunch of tries and made more. He didn't play in their defeat last week IIRC

Anyway this is not to argue about how good he is just interested in your viewpoints. He is flawed and unpredictable but Racing thought enough of him to pay £700 000 plus bonuses.

I just idly wondered whether you thought it the mavericks that Jones does not like or just Cipriani?

Ta for your thoughts

From memory - Russells first game for Racing he scored 2 tries, made 2 more, kicked 2 goals, missed 2 more and missed a kick to touch. thats classic Russell.

I would have thought him a Jones type player but you guys clearly not.

Farrell, Ford and Cipriani are all streets ahead of Russell. He’s Scottish number 1 because you literally have no one else.

He’s not a maverick. That implies he’s sometimes very good.

I'd say he can be excellent. He's a very good player but not a special player that England would be forced to include.

Ta 7.5.
cyril reverting to type I see? Masterminding a complete destruction of England last year not enough?

Anyway - sorry for hijacking your thread. I'll bugger off again

Ha. Destruction of england. You've been waiting a helluva long time so I'll let you off. Let's see if you maintain that into 2019!

Cyril wrote:He’s not a maverick. That implies he’s sometimes very good.

He is sometimes very good. He is also sometimes well below average. To deny he is ever very good is rather brainless imo.