Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Part 2

geoff999rugby wrote:That result was not a surprise to me but a bit worrying.

Some of our players need a rest particularly forwards - O'Sullivan, Moore and Treadwell in particular are being flogged and its starting to show. Trouble we don't have the front five players fit enough to give them a rest.
The backrow could also do with more rotation.
McCall, Kane, Dalton, should start against Leinster
I would also start with a backrow of Timoney, Jones, Reidy
Lets face it we will lose and if we don't rest some of those forwards we will lose against Racing and probably Leicester
Pragmatic approach required.

I know he was our star man last year but honestly Cooney has not been great for a couple of months, Shanahan currently has a better pass.
McPhillips showed why he is not a starter - he is non existent in defence  

O'Hagan o dear breaks down again - like Lyttle he is in the last chance saloon.
Regardless of talent we cant have players in the squad who spend 95% of their time on the treatment table

We are rebuilding from a very low point and will need to pick our games in the short term.

Delighted to have you back, G.

Thought O'Sullivan was monstrous in defence when he had to come back on.

O'Hagan gets his first 18 minutes in a senior Ulster shirt and he is already in the Last Chance Saloon? Declan Fitzpatrick had 9 seasons of sicknotes, and was never given directions!

The Great Aukster wrote:O'Hagan gets his first 18 minutes in a senior Ulster shirt and he is already in the Last Chance Saloon? Declan Fitzpatrick had 9 seasons of sicknotes, and was never given directions!

Hes 25 and only making his senior debut though

Good interview with McFarland in the Sunday Times. Says he needs a prop, lock and utility back player, and he'd like Coetzee to stay on for a couple more seasons.

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:O'Hagan gets his first 18 minutes in a senior Ulster shirt and he is already in the Last Chance Saloon? Declan Fitzpatrick had 9 seasons of sicknotes, and was never given directions!

Hes 25 and only making his senior debut though

He was a late starter in rugby but is in a position that has has longevity, so why hasn't he played before now? He seemed to shore up the scrum when he came on and put himself about but didn't look match fit. He has put in a few MOTM performances for the A's so presumably wasn't injured for those - Ulster have shown plenty of tolerance with other players' injuries so why not with him?

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:O'Hagan gets his first 18 minutes in a senior Ulster shirt and he is already in the Last Chance Saloon? Declan Fitzpatrick had 9 seasons of sicknotes, and was never given directions!

Hes 25 and only making his senior debut though

He was a late starter in rugby but is in a position that has has longevity, so why hasn't he played before now? He seemed to shore up the scrum when he came on and put himself about but didn't look match fit. He has put in a few MOTM performances for the A's so presumably wasn't injured for those - Ulster have shown plenty of tolerance with other players' injuries so why not with him?

Theres a difference between experienced pros getting a chance to recover from injury and unproven youngsters being fit to even ever play

Why would Ulster make a difference? The absence of experienced pros is a lot more debilitating for the team, than an unproven youngster. It wasn't O'Hagan's fault that he wasn't picked when fit and then tore ligaments in his toe - especially bad for a prop. If he had been fit Eric O'Sullivan might still be unproven and the need for either only came because Schalk was (uninjured but) useless.

Pot Hale wrote:Good interview with McFarland in the Sunday Times.   Says he needs a prop, lock and utility back player, and he'd like Coetzee to stay on for a couple more seasons.  

Anyone have any behind-the-firewall jiggery pokery?

Read the online version - must be edited. None of that in there.

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:O'Hagan gets his first 18 minutes in a senior Ulster shirt and he is already in the Last Chance Saloon? Declan Fitzpatrick had 9 seasons of sicknotes, and was never given directions!

Hes 25 and only making his senior debut though

He was a late starter in rugby but is in a position that has has longevity, so why hasn't he played before now? He seemed to shore up the scrum when he came on and put himself about but didn't look match fit. He has put in a few MOTM performances for the A's so presumably wasn't injured for those - Ulster have shown plenty of tolerance with other players' injuries so why not with him?

The difference is simple McFarland is in charge now backed by a CEO who understands Rugby, before it was Kiss and Anscombe backed by a man who was clueless about the game
We are a professional outfit now, we now give youngsters a chance
O'Hagan is rated as a player but his injury record, like Lyttle, is very poor and will not be supported for ever
That's rough, but thems the breaks. We need 4 players for each front row position who are going to be fit more often than not - we simply cant afford players missing most of the time.
As someone else said it is also different for an established players - like Marshall - coming back from injury compared to a new member of the squad.
O'Hagan will, probably, get a 1 year development contract next summer, but only if he has a spell during the rest of the season when he is available.
If injury keeps his out for the rest of the season, I suspect he will be cut loose

Understand that Geoff, but O'Hagan is cheap to keep and has only had two years of a contract. Herbst has been missing as has McCall and Warwick to a lesser extent. Surely Ulster should stick with a player until they are proven unsuitable - Bealham never got a chance to impress irrespective of fitness.

Don Alfonso wrote:Read the online version - must be edited. None of that in there.

Odd. Excerpt from the online version:

“It would surely be easier to grow the support base if there were more local heroes in the team. Only four of the side that beat Scarlets in Belfast recently were born and bred Ulstermen. The following week, against Munster, there were just two. This is an indictment of Ulster’s production system.

McFarland says he’s not concerned, yet he knows that Ulster must develop from within. In the short term he needs to hire a prop, a lock and a utility back. He’d also like to retain Marcell Coetzee for another couple of seasons, if possible. But he understands that the IRFU won’t splash the sort of cash they have done previously. Ulster need to develop what they have, to grow their own.”

The Great Aukster wrote:Understand that Geoff, but O'Hagan is cheap to keep and has only had two years of a contract. Herbst has been missing as has McCall and Warwick to a lesser extent. Surely Ulster should stick with a player until they are proven unsuitable - Bealham never got a chance to impress irrespective of fitness.

He is cheap and for that reason I believe he will probably get a one contract for 19-20.
My point is players with bad injury records will no longer be kept on permanently as in the past.
Given we need 4 LH - he is probably safe. O'Sullivan, McCall, Warwick and O'Hagan
For the same reason Herbst is probably safe - Moore, Kane, O'Toole, Herbst.
My guess, as mentioned above is a 1 year contract but at a lower salary level.

I think Lyttle is more likely to go than O'Hagan due to injury reasons.

Bit unfair on Warwick who has featured in 12 games this year.
McCall may not appeared much this year but he played in 45 games over the previous three years and is impressing in training.
If he is over his HIA I would expect him to start against Leinster
He is only 1 year older than O'Hagan that is a big difference in terms of development
As for Bealham, under the current regime he would have played and would almost certainly not have left - we must not judge the current management on the sins of the past

Big hint from Dan that a number of key players will not be going to Dublin

Also a decent piece by Kieran on the Academy on the official website

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Understand that Geoff, but O'Hagan is cheap to keep and has only had two years of a contract. Herbst has been missing as has McCall and Warwick to a lesser extent. Surely Ulster should stick with a player until they are proven unsuitable - Bealham never got a chance to impress irrespective of fitness.

He is cheap and for that reason I believe he will probably get a one contract for 19-20.
My point is players with bad injury records will no longer be kept on permanently as in the past.
Given we need 4 LH - he is probably safe. O'Sullivan, McCall, Warwick and O'Hagan
For the same reason Herbst is probably safe - Moore, Kane, O'Toole, Herbst.
My guess, as mentioned above is a 1 year contract but at a lower salary level.

I think Lyttle is more likely to go than O'Hagan due to injury reasons.

Bit unfair on Warwick who has featured in 12 games this year.
McCall may not appeared much this year but he played in 45 games over the previous three years and is impressing in training.
If he is over his HIA I would expect him to start against Leinster
He is only 1 year older than O'Hagan that is a big difference in terms of development
As for Bealham, under the current regime he would have played and would almost certainly not have left - we must not judge the current management on the sins of the past

McCall is nearly two years older but has three times the experience in the Ulster set-up. Remember when McCall made the bench in 2011 but Rab Brady was sent on instead to cover a LH sin bin? McCall didn't actually debut for another couple of years, so O'Hagan made his debut after a similar time in the academy as McCall had.

Agree on Lyttle. He is playing wing because of his size rather than ability - at least Shane Williams had the pace and athleticism to make up for his lack of physicality. Rob gets injured because wing isn't a place for small guys anymore (F=ma).

With the clear out at Ulster, have you sorted out the more deep-rooted problems at the core of the club? I’m asking less in terms of the playing side and more about the common views and values that led up to and even encouraged some of the problems of the last couple of years. Can Ulster and their fans hold their heads up high again or is there still work to be done?

Pot Hale wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Read the online version - must be edited. None of that in there.

Odd.  Excerpt from the online version:

“It would surely be easier to grow the support base if there were more local heroes in the team. Only four of the side that beat Scarlets in Belfast recently were born and bred Ulstermen. The following week, against Munster, there were just two. This is an indictment of Ulster’s production system.

McFarland says he’s not concerned, yet he knows that Ulster must develop from within. In the short term he needs to hire a prop, a lock and a utility back. He’d also like to retain Marcell Coetzee for another couple of seasons, if possible. But he understands that the IRFU won’t splash the sort of cash they have done previously. Ulster need to develop what they have, to grow their own.”

The version I can read:

"It would surely be easier to grow the support base if there were more local heroes in the team. Only four of the side that beat Scarlets in Belfast recently were born-and-bred Ulstermen. The following week, against Munster, there were just two. This is an indictment of Ulster’s production system.

“The Ulster Academy is doing an excellent job and you can see that from the number of youngsters that we have in our squad now and the guys who have already played,” McFarland says. “An overall goal for the province should be participation — as many people as possible playing what we consider to be a great sport.

“I see a bigger picture. I see a province with a population of 2.1 million, not that far off Leinster. There is growth within Ulster that excites me. Even if you just look at the city of Belfast, you can see that growth, that life, that enthusiasm about the future. That’s something I want to be a part of.” "

We now have an outstanding Academy which is spreading its search far and wide for players, both within Ulster and in Ireland as a whole.
Personally do not have an issue with the likes of O'Connor, Timoney, O'Hagan and O'Sullivan coming up through our ranks even if not Ulster born.
Big difference between players like that than Moore and Murphy for example.
Having said that as players come through the Academy the number of local players will go up
Currently we have on our books - Full, Development and Academy contracts:
33 Ulster born
12 Born elsewhere in Ireland (8 have come through our ranks 4 (Moore, Ross, Cooney, Nagle) did not
9 qualified through Irish parents/grandparents in the NH i.e England or in Murphys case Spain
2 qualified through Irish parents/grandparents in the SH Herring, Reidy
2 are residency qualified - Ludik, Herbst
0 project payers
1 NIQ - Coetzee

To me that is not too bad and will improve as the QAcedemy players come through

So a 33 - 26 split of home born (Not ‘homegrown’) versus recruited from outside Ulster.

How does that compare with with other provinces anyone able to figure it out, or guess roughly even?

How much of an effect does it have on youth rugby in a school if it has a past pupil playing regularly for ulster? A lot? Or not much?
Does having a ‘same school’ connection or even s nearby school connection do more to inspire teenage rugby players as opposed to say Shanahan or Timoney?

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:By 3 NIQ I am saying 3 players who are not and never will be qualified to play for Ireland and yes Project is someone who will have to go through 5 year of Residency.
In practise Cunningham made clear this means a promising youngster they would be prepared to take a punt on.

Ok - so you’re saying that 3 Non-Irish Eligible NIE players plus 1 NIQ special project is the edict from IRFU.   Wonder if that will apply to Leinster and Munster as well?

This has been the case for at least 5 years now. (With the obvious exception of Munster Who currently have 6 and had up to 9 last season) What people seem to forget is that it is 4 NIQ players AT LEAST one of whom must be able to qualify for Ireland by residency.

It does not mean that there can only be one time server. THEY CAN ALL be time servers. Leinster for example have 2 x NIE (Fardy and Tomane) and 2 (JGP and Lowe) who can qualify in 2019 and 2020 respectively.

Now that Ulster have shed VDM (Who would have qualified for Ireland in 2020) Speight and Deysel they are just down to Coetzee as an NIE.

Connacht are also compliant with one NIE (Godwin has one senior Aus cap) and 3 timeservers Butler (2020) Horowitz and  Fainga'a (both 2023)

Munster are extracting the wee wee with 3 NIE. (Botha, Taute and Mathewson) and 3 timeservers. Klein, Marshall (both 2019) and Cloete (2020)  Klein is signed to 2022. Marshall to 2021 and Botha to 2020. Taute probably gone this summer, but it would not surprise me if they kept Mathewson. Meaning they would be full up. (Until someone gets manflu next season)

Pot Hale wrote:
Of the supposed 12 full-time NIE slots available across the three provinces, in reality there are only 2 in Leinster (Fardy and Tomane), 2 in Munster (Taute and Botha)  and 3 in Ulster at beginning of season, now reduced to 1 having cleared out van der Merwe and Deysel.   With Coetzee’s, Taute’s and Fardy’s  contracts due to finish next June - will IRFU allow any of their NIE contracts to be renewed - if the clubs want to - or do they keep to their 2012 “guidelines “ about non-renewal of NIE contracts?   And if so, who are the new ones to come in assuming that the IRFU will continue to say only one NIE per position?  

In that context, does your point about urgently needing a lock at Ulster mean IRFU would want an IQ player in that position since the IRFU plan on a 3-4 year basis and high-quality national stocks are not deep?  

Those rules are subject to individual cases on their merit now.

Pot Hale wrote:

Fardy is unlikely to be renewed at Leinster given his age, and if Nagle stays at Ulster (why not, he’s getting game time), Leinster will have one more season of Toner (central contract till June 2020), and only have Ryan, Molony & Kearney to continue past that with two youngsters cooking in their academy.
Ulster have Henderson, Treadwell, O’Connor, Nagle with academy Matt Dalton as a possibility you say.  
Munster have Beirne, Holland (finish June 2020), and Kleyn who becomes IQ in August 2019 and Wycherley, with Sean O’Connor a promising youngster in their academy.
Connacht have Dillane, Roux, the ever-improving Gavin Thornbury, and Cannon/Maksymiw as back-up stocks.

Therefore Fardy could be re signed as Leinster have Ryan and Toner as Ireland 23 players. Also the Project player thing is much less attractive now that they take 5 years.

I think where the player is born is a red herring. It's where they learned their Rugby.

Players like Rog, Heaslip, Jordi Murphy or Luke McGrath are as Irish as anyone else. Players like Abdaladze who came to Ireland aged 6 or Adeolokun who was a few years older learned all their Rugby in Ireland.

"Poaching" a player who is not taken into another province's academy is fair enough (eg. Adeolokun) and I suppose makes them a little bit "homegrown" rather than getting them as fully formed professionals.

If Ulster have any NIQ next year it will be a Lock first and a LH second
That is a switch from the plan last year and that will be due to the emergence of O'Sullivan
A back remains very very remote and if there is one it will be a Project type player

St John The Enforcer wrote:I think where the player is born is a red herring. It's where they learned their Rugby.

Players like Rog, Heaslip, Jordi Murphy or Luke McGrath are as Irish as anyone else. Players like Abdaladze who came to Ireland aged 6 or Adeolokun who was a few years older learned all their Rugby in Ireland.

"Poaching" a player who is not taken into another province's academy is fair enough (eg. Adeolokun) and I suppose makes them a little bit "homegrown" rather than getting them as fully formed professionals.

Spot on, as I say O'Connor, Timoney, O'Hagan and O'Sullivan are fine by me - brought into Ulster

clivemcl wrote:So a 33 - 26 split of home born (Not ‘homegrown’) versus recruited from outside Ulster.

How does that compare with with other provinces anyone able to figure it out, or guess roughly even?

How much of an effect does it have on youth rugby in a school if it has a past pupil playing regularly for ulster? A lot? Or not much?
Does having a ‘same school’ connection or even s nearby school connection do more to inspire teenage rugby players as opposed to say Shanahan or Timoney?

I would split them into 3 categories.

1 Fully developed in a Province via school or club and then Academy.

2 Taken from another province or another country into your academy

3 Brought in as professional players (eg. Michael Bent or Billy Burns)

Leinster have none in category 2 and Obviously their current 4 NIQ players plus Bent (NZ) Cronin (Munster) and Henshaw (Connacht) in category 3. The rest are homegrown including the whole academy.

Looks like O'Sullivan, Murphy and Treadwell will get that rest
Alongside Coetzee, Murphy and Best

The forwards for Leinster could be
McCall, McBurney, Kane, Nagle, AOC, Jones, Reidy, Timoney
Bench of Warwick, Andrew, Herbst, Dalton, Ross maybe

geoff999rugby wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:I think where the player is born is a red herring. It's where they learned their Rugby.

Players like Rog, Heaslip, Jordi Murphy or Luke McGrath are as Irish as anyone else. Players like Abdaladze who came to Ireland aged 6 or Adeolokun who was a few years older learned all their Rugby in Ireland.

"Poaching" a player who is not taken into another province's academy is fair enough (eg. Adeolokun) and I suppose makes them a little bit "homegrown" rather than getting them as fully formed professionals.

Spot on, as I say O'Connor, Timoney, O'Hagan and O'Sullivan  are fine by me - brought into Ulster

Yes. Fine by me too. None of them made the Leinster academy. Timoney in particular looks good. Got to be the fastest back rower in the country. The ultimate in proving Leinster wrong is Tadhg Beirne though.

O'Sullivan will prove them wrong big time as well

In the Academy, second season and played in every game
Not claiming anything outrageous like he will reach Healy or McGrath level but would not swap him for any other
LH at Leinster or Munster (Kilcoyne for example had yet to play for Munster at the same age)

Looks like O'Hagan is out for months maybe the end of the season.
See my point above

geoff999rugby wrote:O'Sullivan will prove them wrong big time as well

Could well do. Is he better than Ed Byrne or Peter Dooley right now though?

Don't you guys also have Greg Jones? Schoolmate of Larmour and Porter

St John The Enforcer wrote:

clivemcl wrote:So a 33 - 26 split of home born (Not ‘homegrown’) versus recruited from outside Ulster.

How does that compare with with other provinces anyone able to figure it out, or guess roughly even?

How much of an effect does it have on youth rugby in a school if it has a past pupil playing regularly for ulster? A lot? Or not much?
Does having a ‘same school’ connection or even s nearby school connection do more to inspire teenage rugby players as opposed to say Shanahan or Timoney?

I would split them into 3 categories.

1 Fully developed in a Province via school or club and then Academy.

2 Taken from another province or another country into your academy

3 Brought in as professional players (eg. Michael Bent or Billy Burns)

Leinster have none in category 2 and Obviously their current 4 NIQ players plus Bent (NZ) Cronin (Munster) and Henshaw (Connacht) in category 3. The rest are homegrown including the whole academy.

Not including sub-academy, though. They have John McKee from Ulster.

St John The Enforcer wrote:Connacht are also compliant with one NIE (Godwin has one senior Aus cap) and 3 timeservers Butler (2020) Horowitz and  Fainga'a (both 2023)

Is Fainga'a not NIE? He is capped at U20 level for Australia, are they not the second team for the ARU?

St John The Enforcer wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:I think where the player is born is a red herring. It's where they learned their Rugby.

Players like Rog, Heaslip, Jordi Murphy or Luke McGrath are as Irish as anyone else. Players like Abdaladze who came to Ireland aged 6 or Adeolokun who was a few years older learned all their Rugby in Ireland.

"Poaching" a player who is not taken into another province's academy is fair enough (eg. Adeolokun) and I suppose makes them a little bit "homegrown" rather than getting them as fully formed professionals.

Spot on, as I say O'Connor, Timoney, O'Hagan and O'Sullivan  are fine by me - brought into Ulster

Yes. Fine by me too. None of them made the Leinster academy. Timoney in particular looks good. Got to be the fastest back rower in the country. The ultimate in proving Leinster wrong is Tadhg Beirne though.

I don't think Beirne is proving Leinster wrong, they showed faith in him giving him a one year deal but he was constantly injured, his shoulder wasn't it? They just couldn't justify giving him another deal when he hadn't stayed fit and the talent they had coming through meant him or someone else had to go

marty2086 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:Connacht are also compliant with one NIE (Godwin has one senior Aus cap) and 3 timeservers Butler (2020) Horowitz and  Fainga'a (both 2023)

Is Fainga'a not NIE? He is capped at U20 level for Australia, are they not the second team for the ARU?

Dunno if they are but he would have to have played against another country's second team too I think. Jarred Butler also played for the AUS u20s

marty2086 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:I think where the player is born is a red herring. It's where they learned their Rugby.

Players like Rog, Heaslip, Jordi Murphy or Luke McGrath are as Irish as anyone else. Players like Abdaladze who came to Ireland aged 6 or Adeolokun who was a few years older learned all their Rugby in Ireland.

"Poaching" a player who is not taken into another province's academy is fair enough (eg. Adeolokun) and I suppose makes them a little bit "homegrown" rather than getting them as fully formed professionals.

Spot on, as I say O'Connor, Timoney, O'Hagan and O'Sullivan  are fine by me - brought into Ulster

Yes. Fine by me too. None of them made the Leinster academy. Timoney in particular looks good. Got to be the fastest back rower in the country. The ultimate in proving Leinster wrong is Tadhg Beirne though.

I don't think Beirne is proving Leinster wrong, they showed faith in him giving him a one year deal but he was constantly injured, his shoulder wasn't it? They just couldn't justify giving him another deal when he hadn't stayed fit and the talent they had coming through meant him or someone else had to go

Not saying that it was the wrong thing to do with the info they had at the time. But he turned into a great player and knocked Leinster out in the semi final of the Pro 12

Only a matter of time until someone like Jordi Murphy or someone else scores a try thet knocks Leinster out of something. Wait until the whinging of Leinster fans starts then

Don Alfonso wrote:

Not including sub-academy, though. They have John McKee from Ulster.

Not sure how that happened. Does he have Family down here?

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
Ok - so you’re saying that 3 Non-Irish Eligible NIE players plus 1 NIQ special project is the edict from IRFU.   Wonder if that will apply to Leinster and Munster as well?

This has been the case for at least 5 years now. (With the obvious exception of Munster Who currently have 6 and had up to 9 last season) What people seem to forget is that it is 4 NIQ players AT LEAST one of whom must be able to qualify for Ireland by residency.

It does not mean that there can only be one time server. THEY CAN ALL be time servers. Leinster for example have 2 x NIE (Fardy and Tomane) and 2 (JGP and Lowe) who can qualify in 2019 and 2020 respectively.

Now that Ulster have shed VDM (Who would have qualified for Ireland in 2020) Speight and Deysel they are just down to Coetzee as an NIE.

Connacht are also compliant with one NIE (Godwin has one senior Aus cap) and 3 timeservers Butler (2020) Horowitz and  Fainga'a (both 2023)

Munster are extracting the wee wee with 3 NIE. (Botha, Taute and Mathewson) and 3 timeservers. Klein, Marshall (both 2019) and Cloete (2020)  Klein is signed to 2022. Marshall to 2021 and Botha to 2020. Taute probably gone this summer, but it would not surprise me if they kept Mathewson. Meaning they would be full up. (Until someone gets manflu next season)

Pot Hale wrote:
Of the supposed 12 full-time NIE slots available across the three provinces, in reality there are only 2 in Leinster (Fardy and Tomane), 2 in Munster (Taute and Botha)  and 3 in Ulster at beginning of season, now reduced to 1 having cleared out van der Merwe and Deysel.   With Coetzee’s, Taute’s and Fardy’s  contracts due to finish next June - will IRFU allow any of their NIE contracts to be renewed - if the clubs want to - or do they keep to their 2012 “guidelines “ about non-renewal of NIE contracts?   And if so, who are the new ones to come in assuming that the IRFU will continue to say only one NIE per position?  

In that context, does your point about urgently needing a lock at Ulster mean IRFU would want an IQ player in that position since the IRFU plan on a 3-4 year basis and high-quality national stocks are not deep?  

Those rules are subject to individual cases on their merit now.

Pot Hale wrote:

Fardy is unlikely to be renewed at Leinster given his age, and if Nagle stays at Ulster (why not, he’s getting game time), Leinster will have one more season of Toner (central contract till June 2020), and only have Ryan, Molony & Kearney to continue past that with two youngsters cooking in their academy.
Ulster have Henderson, Treadwell, O’Connor, Nagle with academy Matt Dalton as a possibility you say.  
Munster have Beirne, Holland (finish June 2020), and Kleyn who becomes IQ in August 2019 and Wycherley, with Sean O’Connor a promising youngster in their academy.
Connacht have Dillane, Roux, the ever-improving Gavin Thornbury, and Cannon/Maksymiw as back-up stocks.

Therefore Fardy could be re signed as Leinster have Ryan and Toner as Ireland 23 players. Also the Project player thing is much less attractive now that they take 5 years.

It hasn’t been the case for five years. The 2011 Player Succession Strategy stipulated:

One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.

For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.

In short, 4 NIE players plus one special project player who could qualify for Ireland (NIQ) per each of the 3 provinces.

From a Nucifora interview at the end of 2015: “Given the more expensive market place, Nucifora also said that the figure of four overseas players plus one special project was not cast in stone, and that there might be a case for “getting in two really good ones and as opposed to four average ones and invest the rest of our money into trying to hold on to the best of our Irish boys.”

The guidelines (not rules deliberately) stipulate the total number of players - 15 by position - they dont specifically stipulate that it must be evenly spread across the three all the time.

PS - Mathewson is on an extended 3-month injury cover ontract until March. So Munster have their complement of five foreign players on full-time contract - Lock, Backrower, Backrower, Hooker, Centre. Leinster have Fardy officially as Lock, Tomane as Wing, Gibson Park as 9, Lowe as Wing. Ulster have just Coetzee as backrower. Connacht have Godwin as Centre, Butler as backrower, Faainga as backrower, and Horowitz as 10.
Interestingly, given the PSS was started because of a prop shortage, there are currently no NIE/NIQ props.

All of which could open the door to Ulster getting one, and with Kleyn IQ by start of next season, and Fardy likely gone, a lock as well. There’s no specialist FB either, so a utility back three player makes sense as Ludik ain’t getting any younger, and Addison will be up for test duty a lot. Maybe Darragh Leader might make a move from Connacht.

marty2086 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:Connacht are also compliant with one NIE (Godwin has one senior Aus cap) and 3 timeservers Butler (2020) Horowitz and  Fainga'a (both 2023)

Is Fainga'a not NIE? He is capped at U20 level for Australia, are they not the second team for the ARU?

Nope - doesnt count, Marty. He’s a NIQ and just that. He’s 28 at end of March so he’s not considered a project. Butler will be 29 when his current 3-year contract ends with Connacht in June 2020. He would be residency-qualified in Jul/Aug 2020. Is he likely to surpass all the other backrowers? Horwitz is only 24, but is only on a two-year contract. In theory, he wouldn’t residency qualify until July 2023 - just before the next RWC as he’d turn 30. Again unlikely to be considered for test selection at that point.

Pot Hale wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:Connacht are also compliant with one NIE (Godwin has one senior Aus cap) and 3 timeservers Butler (2020) Horowitz and  Fainga'a (both 2023)

Is Fainga'a not NIE? He is capped at U20 level for Australia, are they not the second team for the ARU?

Nope - doesnt count, Marty.  He’s a NIQ and just that.  He’s 28 at end of March so he’s not considered a project.  Butler will be 29 when his current 3-year contract ends with Connacht in June 2020.  He would be residency-qualified in Jul/Aug 2020.  Is he likely to surpass all the other backrowers?  Horwitz is only 24, but is only on a two-year contract.  In theory, he wouldn’t residency qualify until July 2023 - just before the next RWC as he’d turn 30.  Again unlikely to be considered for test selection at that point.  

The Residency qualified players are not necessarily intended to all play for Ireland just be available. Ludik or Tom McCartney for example. Law of unintended consequences. Teams are incentivised to use IQ players then that's just what they do regardless of whether they end up playing for Ireland.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Not including sub-academy, though. They have John McKee from Ulster.

Not sure how that happened. Does he have Family down here?

Very highly rated prop (and recently captained Ireland U19s), but decided he wanted to play at hooker. Ulster said they had much more need at prop, and didn't want him to swap. Leinster pounced.

Pot Hale wrote:

It hasn’t been the case for five years.  The 2011 Player Succession Strategy stipulated:

One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.

For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.

In short, 4 NIE players plus one special project player who could qualify for Ireland (NIQ) per each of the 3 provinces.  

From a Nucifora interview at the end of 2015: “Given the more expensive market place, Nucifora also said that the figure of four overseas players plus one special project was not cast in stone, and that there might be a case for “getting in two really good ones and as opposed to four average ones and invest the rest of our money into trying to hold on to the best of our Irish boys.”

The guidelines (not rules deliberately) stipulate the total number of players - 15 by position - they dont specifically stipulate that it must be evenly spread across the three all the time.  

 

Sorry I thought Mathewson was extended til the end of the season. TBF it is only 6 weeks off that.

The IRFU don't always announce their "rules" but Leinster have been kept to 3 + 1 for a good few years now. It's the aspiration for the rest also AFAIK. But they are "allowed" to exceed that on a case by case basis.

The 15 positions thing didn't last too long. Basically as long as enough players are produced in all positions then the IRFU will be flexible. As you said somewhere we had a prop crisis back in the day when these were proposed. Now... Crisis. What crisis?

Don Alfonso wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Not including sub-academy, though. They have John McKee from Ulster.

Not sure how that happened. Does he have Family down here?

Very highly rated prop (and recently captained Ireland U19s), but decided he wanted to play at hooker. Ulster said they had much more need at prop, and didn't want him to swap. Leinster pounced.

Nice. We lost Eoghan Clarke to Munster in the same position so perhaps McKee was preferred to Clarke? Clarke was backup to Ronan Kelleher in the U20s last season. We also have 2 hooking brothers coming through. The elder Dan Sheehan is already in the full Academy along with Cian Kelleher's younger brother Ronan (also a hooker)

The younger lad Bobby is presumably in the sub academy with McKee

Pot Hale wrote:

One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.


 

Interesting to look at this now. Only 15 NIQ (7 of whom are NIE) players across all 4 provinces currently

5 of them are back rowers (Not including Fardy) None are props and only 4 outside backs

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Not including sub-academy, though. They have John McKee from Ulster.

Not sure how that happened. Does he have Family down here?

Very highly rated prop (and recently captained Ireland U19s), but decided he wanted to play at hooker. Ulster said they had much more need at prop, and didn't want him to swap. Leinster pounced.

Nice. We lost Eoghan Clarke to Munster in the same position so perhaps McKee was preferred to Clarke? Clarke was backup to Ronan Kelleher in the U20s last season. We also have 2 hooking brothers coming through. The elder Dan Sheehan is already in the full Academy along with Cian Kelleher's younger brother Ronan (also a hooker)

The younger lad Bobby is presumably in the sub academy with McKee

Could be. He was, certainly at prop, very highly rated.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.


 

Interesting to look at this now. Only 15 NIQ (7 of whom are NIE) players across all 4 provinces currently

5 of them are back rowers (Not including Fardy) None are props and only 4 outside backs

Err yes - that’s what I was pointing out. Excluding Connacht players as per reasons above - No props, 1 Hooker, 2 Locks, 3 backrowers, 1 scrum-half, No ten, 1 centre, 2 wings. So 5 NIE full-time and 4 NIQs at senior level plus 2 NIQs from SA in the Munster Academy (Knox and More).

Fardy will be turning 35 next July so he’s gone. Taute presumably goes with Scannell, Farrell, Goggin, Bleyendaal, Arnold all there. Coetzee may get an exception/extension for renewal.

Plenty of scope for Ulster to look for an experienced NIE or NIQ prop, lock, and maybe utility back.

The only 1 player per position was never enforced and as say they rule now is 3 + 1 and even only under extreme circumstances
Ulster will not be signing a back three player - Addision, Ludik, Lowry and probably Nelson will cover 15
Stockdale, Baloucoune, Kernohan Sexton, Gilroy (I assume), Hume (if required) and Lyttle (if fit) will cover wing

It will be a Lock and/or a LH, if anybody

Can of worms I know but there is no doubt in my mind Munster have been treated differently from Leinster and Ulster for different reasons.

Leinster simply do not need many NIQ because they are producing so many good players
Ulster are being forced to get there Academy in order because they have underdelivered - they are at last doing so and the fruits of that will be seen in the coming year
However Munster are also under delivering (3 to 10 years ago they were producing quality players) but are being propped up by imports. They need some cold turkey in the way Ulster are getting it
Murray, POM, Earls are great but after that ?
Ulster can match that with Best, Henderson, Stockdale

I would not swap Ulsters long term position with Munsters, assuming they are treated equally by the IRFU

St John The Enforcer wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:O'Sullivan will prove them wrong big time as well

Could well do. Is he better than Ed Byrne or Peter Dooley right now though?

Don't you guys also have Greg Jones? Schoolmate of Larmour and Porter

He has 2 years on Bryne and 3 on Dooley and unlike them is getting regular game time.
Dooley is happy being behind Healy and McGrath rather than move and develop - shows a lack of ambition, same as Deegan
Healy and McGrath are not going away than soon

Jones is with us - behind Coetzee Murphy, Reidy, Timoney and alongside Matt Rea in the pecking order.
Will be tough there are 5 or 6 coming through who have the ability to be contenders

geoff999rugby wrote:Can of worms I know but there is no doubt in my mind Munster have been treated differently from Leinster and Ulster for different reasons.

Leinster simply do not need many NIQ because they are producing so many good players
Ulster are being forced to get there Academy in order because they have underdelivered - they are at last doing so and the fruits of that will be seen in the coming year
However Munster are also under delivering (3 to 10 years ago they were producing quality players) but are being propped up by imports. They need some cold turkey in the way Ulster are getting it
Murray, POM, Earls are great but after that ?
Ulster can match that with Best, Henderson, Stockdale

I would not swap Ulsters long term position with Munsters, assuming they are treated equally by the IRFU

Agree with that Geoff. They have. Perhaps, because the IRFU have skin in the game through ownership of Thomond. The debt has been reduced somewhat with a new repayment scheme now in place but it remains to be serviced. Ulster have turned things around considerably this season and swallowed a lot of medicine - the academy situation looks promising. I’d add in Niall Scannell to your Munster list. Wycherley, Goggin and young Coombs look strong candidates. As do a number of the Ulster youngsters as I’ve said on here previously.

geoff999rugby wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:O'Sullivan will prove them wrong big time as well

Could well do. Is he better than Ed Byrne or Peter Dooley right now though?

Don't you guys also have Greg Jones? Schoolmate of Larmour and Porter

He has 2 years on Bryne and 3 on Dooley and unlike them is getting regular game time.
Dooley is happy being behind Healy and McGrath rather than move and develop - shows a lack of ambition, same as Deegan
Healy and McGrath are not going away than soon

Jones is with us - behind Coetzee Murphy, Reidy, Timoney and alongside Matt Rea in the pecking order.
Will be tough there are 5 or 6 coming through who have the ability to be contenders

Yeah, it's easy to forget Dooley and the Byrnes are all entering their mid-twenties. Having said that, Dooley seemingly has 54 caps. Not many crunch or Euro games, I'd wager, but it's not like he's never on the pitch. That is since '14.

Don Alfonso wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:O'Sullivan will prove them wrong big time as well

Could well do. Is he better than Ed Byrne or Peter Dooley right now though?

Don't you guys also have Greg Jones? Schoolmate of Larmour and Porter

He has 2 years on Bryne and 3 on Dooley and unlike them is getting regular game time.
Dooley is happy being behind Healy and McGrath rather than move and develop - shows a lack of ambition, same as Deegan
Healy and McGrath are not going away than soon

Jones is with us - behind Coetzee Murphy, Reidy, Timoney and alongside Matt Rea in the pecking order.
Will be tough there are 5 or 6 coming through who have the ability to be contenders

Yeah, it's easy to forget Dooley and the Byrnes are all entering their mid-twenties. Having said that, Dooley seemingly has 54 caps. Not many crunch or Euro games, I'd wager, but it's not like he's never on the pitch. That is since '14.

The point is. If you are sitting down in May 18 deciding who will be backup to your 2 Test Lion loose heads. Do you get rid of Byrne or Dooley and bet the farm on some young lad who looks good and may have potential?

Bird in the hand. It's a gamble either way, but the 2 lads are proven performers at pro14 level and look able to step it up into Europe too.

Article in the Indo today speculating on who might benefit from a loan move to another province citing Tom Daly to Connacht and Stephen Fitzgerald as two examples. A further two suggested are Deegan to Ulster as discussed already on here and Jack Kelly, a utility back to Connacht.