Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 9:30 am

First topic message reminder :

Saracens have made the following statement.
"
Club Statement - Co-investment partnerships between the Saracens owner and players.

Following a newspaper article, the Club would like to make the following statement: 

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so. 

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future. 

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too.  It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

To me it just seems to be we're doing good work for the England team so don't pry!


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 11:32 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I seem to have underestimated how much they manage to spend.

Can you run me by this. You initially said the French teams spend £20m on players. I see no evidence of this. Now you say they spend more than £20m on players?

Would be interested to know how much exactly. Thanks


No he didn't, he said euros not pounds which seems about right.

Can you point me to where any French club is spending 20m Euros a year on player wages. Thanks

A couple years back Toulouse were spending over 20m. Not sure if it’s the case now, but also struggle to see how they would cope with reducing their budget. I also struggle to see why someone would be upset/this defensive over it.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 11:38 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:"The likelihood that French teams are spending 20m Euros on players per year is the same as the likelihood that Leinster are spending 20m Euros per yer on players."

Which is a possibility.....I would imagine Toulon & Racing are spending more than Leinster though. Aren't Toulon spending over 1 million Euro on Etzebeth alone?

Toulon are spending £10.5m on players after tax. So nowhere near the 20m Euros that has been wildly and irresponsibly thrown about in this thread.

I am on my phone at moment, but I guess this is aimed at me.

Stade spent 13.5m Euros on player salaries in 17/18. This excludes taxes. The spent 17m in total on salaries. From memory the was another 19m in other costs that includes all taxes (plus stadium costs etc).

You cannot compare remuneration or caps across leagues as they are all derived in different ways. Sponsorship, image rights, accommodation and family payments all count towards the salary cap in England, but not in France. You may deem it irresponsible but 20m seems about right for the biggest payers in France.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 11:43 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I seem to have underestimated how much they manage to spend.

Can you run me by this. You initially said the French teams spend £20m on players. I see no evidence of this. Now you say they spend more than £20m on players?

Would be interested to know how much exactly. Thanks


No he didn't, he said euros not pounds which seems about right.

Can you point me to where any French club is spending 20m Euros a year on player wages. Thanks

A couple years back Toulouse were spending over 20m. Not sure if it’s the case now, but also struggle to see how they would cope with reducing their budget. I also struggle to see why someone would be upset/this defensive over it.

No

They

Were

Not.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 11:44 am

LondonTiger wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:"The likelihood that French teams are spending 20m Euros on players per year is the same as the likelihood that Leinster are spending 20m Euros per yer on players."

Which is a possibility.....I would imagine Toulon & Racing are spending more than Leinster though. Aren't Toulon spending over 1 million Euro on Etzebeth alone?

Toulon are spending £10.5m on players after tax. So nowhere near the 20m Euros that has been wildly and irresponsibly thrown about in this thread.

I am on my phone at moment, but I guess this is aimed at me.

Stade spent 13.5m Euros on player salaries in 17/18. This excludes taxes. The spent 17m in total on salaries. From memory the was another 19m in other costs that includes all taxes (plus stadium costs etc).

You cannot compare remuneration or caps across leagues as they are all derived in different ways. Sponsorship, image rights, accommodation and family payments all count towards the salary cap in England, but not in France. You may deem it irresponsible but 20m seems about right for the biggest payers in France.

That is incorrect. The taxes are included in the 13m Euros cap.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 11:46 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I seem to have underestimated how much they manage to spend.

Can you run me by this. You initially said the French teams spend £20m on players. I see no evidence of this. Now you say they spend more than £20m on players?

Would be interested to know how much exactly. Thanks


No he didn't, he said euros not pounds which seems about right.

Can you point me to where any French club is spending 20m Euros a year on player wages. Thanks

A couple years back Toulouse were spending over 20m. Not sure if it’s the case now, but also struggle to see how they would cope with reducing their budget. I also struggle to see why someone would be upset/this defensive over it.

No

They

Were

Not.

Yes they were.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 11:54 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I seem to have underestimated how much they manage to spend.

Can you run me by this. You initially said the French teams spend £20m on players. I see no evidence of this. Now you say they spend more than £20m on players?

Would be interested to know how much exactly. Thanks


No he didn't, he said euros not pounds which seems about right.

Can you point me to where any French club is spending 20m Euros a year on player wages. Thanks

A couple years back Toulouse were spending over 20m. Not sure if it’s the case now, but also struggle to see how they would cope with reducing their budget. I also struggle to see why someone would be upset/this defensive over it.

No

They

Were

Not.

Yes they were.

The cap is 13m. They are not allowed to sped that much. Teams have been relegated for inaccuracies in budget reporting.

You are making yourself look ridiculous.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 11:59 am

I said they were spending over 20m, not that it was their salary cap. Poor choice of words from me, as we know players have multiple income sources through their club investors and profile. It’s common sense really. It’s already been pointed out to you (the salary cap) on this very thread. The only person who looks ridiculous here is you, being overly defensive on a subject we are merely discussing. It’s a little funny actually, which is why I pitched in, slow day see Smile.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:02 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I said they were spending over 20m, not that it was their salary cap. Poor choice of words from me, as we know players have multiple income sources through their club investors and profile. It’s common sense really. It’s already been pointed out to you (the salary cap) on this very thread. The only person who looks ridiculous here is you, being overly defensive on a subject we are merely discussing. It’s a little funny actually, which is why I pitched in, slow day see Smile.

What were Toulouse spending 20m on?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:14 pm

Ask ESPN.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:26 pm

Embarrassing.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 12:32 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:Embarrassing.

Yeah you are, getting this upset and defensive over a harmless discussion. I’m glad you can finally see the point thumbsup.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:12 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:You've got to admire the absolute gall of some posters on here, throwing about the term "uncompetitiveness" as regards to the English league, when the 3 Friday night Pro14 fixtures last week yielded an aggregate score of 122 - 22.

That takes some brazen shamelessness.

Just to clarify what I mean about competitiveness in the English league is that if the playing field isn't level, Saracens will win every year and none of the other clubs have a chance in being competitive.

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.
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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:28 pm

If the Pro14 was any good then why are the fans staying away?
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Post by Sin é on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:38 pm

TightHEAD wrote:If the Pro14 was any good then why are the fans staying away?

Good has got nothing to do with my point about competitiveness. The clubs are all fairly equal(ly good or bad).

As for the low attendance. Some of the clubs are fairly new and the league is fairly new, so some of the clubs don't have the same support base yet.


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Post by nlpnlp on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:39 pm

Extract from Sportsjoe website

"The Ligue Nationale de Rugby released the figures through its Direction Nationale d'Aide et de Contrôle de Gestion [DNACG] financial arm.
The DNACG report also highlights the exploding wage-bill most French clubs are dealing with. In the past decade, Toulon - the league's biggest spenders - have upped their outgoings from €18m a year to €35m. Just over a third of that is said to be on player wages [€11m] but sponsorship and commercial payments often go to players through different departments so the true figure would be close to €15m."

So although there is a salary cap circa €11.3m, it appears that there are plenty of add-ons available to players which do not count as salary.

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:40 pm

Its a poor league, at least Sarries were good value for their spending.
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Post by Sin é on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:47 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Its a poor league, at least Sarries were good value for their spending.

But .... but ... but ... the French have great attendances!
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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:54 pm

Don't know as its dull as dishwater too.
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Post by RDW on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 1:56 pm

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I wonder if this will cause disruption within the England camp. Most teams have stuck the boot in to Saracens and whilst none of the current England players have said anything, other players like Care and Robshaw have commented. I'm sure any England player interviewed over the coming weekends will be asked about it too. You've got to wonder how they feel towards those Saracens players benefiting.

Those high level players who have benefited from this will certainly feel under a lot of scrutiny right now! Probably a good thing they're all on holiday.

In Care's interview he has said everyone that plays knows that this has gone on at Sarries but they have never been able to say anything about it. This could all become messy.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 2:46 pm

Sin é wrote:

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.

Not sure about half. Maybe 5.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 3:21 pm


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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 07 Nov 2019, 8:52 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.

Not sure about half. Maybe 5.

I’d say all 4 of the Irish, both of the Scottish (already more than 5) are in with a chance of making the play-offs. The others that stand a chance are Scarlets and Cheetahs.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:42 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.

Not sure about half. Maybe 5.

I’d say all 4 of the Irish, both of the Scottish (already more than 5) are in with a chance of making the play-offs. The others that stand a chance are Scarlets and Cheetahs.

Seems about right - we carry 3 weaker teams but overall it is very open

Also look at the last 5 years - the Premiership has been won 4 times by Saracens and once Exeter.
In the same time the Pro14 has been won by 4 different teams and that doesn't include Munster and Ulster who are serious contenders

There is little doubt which league is the more open and competitive

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:45 am

It depends how you define open and competitive. Falcons managed to be in a relegation fight, in the play offs, relegated in 3 consecutive seasons.

Saracens have closed off the top spot largely, but to say the Premiership is not competitive below that is harsh.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:52 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.

Not sure about half. Maybe 5.

I’d say all 4 of the Irish, both of the Scottish (already more than 5) are in with a chance of making the play-offs. The others that stand a chance are Scarlets and Cheetahs.

Seems about right - we carry 3 weaker teams but overall it is very open

Also look at the last 5 years - the Premiership has been won 4 times by Saracens and once Exeter.
In the same time the Pro14 has been won by 4 different teams and that doesn't include Munster and Ulster who are serious contenders

There is little doubt which league is the more open and competitive  


For the title yes but I think we know the reason why that has been sewn up by a dominant team....and they will have quite the job on their hand to be there this time!
Once you go past that the premiership is always very close and competitive for playoff and European slots, and the relegation battle usually goes down the the last couple of weeks too ( London Welsh politely excused). Its also worth noting that some of the competition in the Pro14 is artificially created by the IRFU withdrawing players for bigger chunks of the league than other Unions do.  
The changes to structure the Pro14 has made, including the way HC places are given out, has improved it it over the years though. Still feel theres a problem with the bottom sides that not easily fixed, theres a definite gulf between top and bottom in the Pro 14 that isnt so evident in the Premiership.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 11:30 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.

Not sure about half. Maybe 5.

I’d say all 4 of the Irish, both of the Scottish (already more than 5) are in with a chance of making the play-offs. The others that stand a chance are Scarlets and Cheetahs.

Play offs? I thought "contenders" means contending for the title. I can't see Edinburgh or Cheetahs winning the final. Connacht don't look that great this year either.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 11:32 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.

Not sure about half. Maybe 5.

I’d say all 4 of the Irish, both of the Scottish (already more than 5) are in with a chance of making the play-offs. The others that stand a chance are Scarlets and Cheetahs.

Seems about right - we carry 3 weaker teams but overall it is very open

Also look at the last 5 years - the Premiership has been won 4 times by Saracens and once Exeter.
In the same time the Pro14 has been won by 4 different teams and that doesn't include Munster and Ulster who are serious contenders

There is little doubt which league is the more open and competitive  

To look at it properly, you'd need to analyse the whole season - see the points difference in all games across all matches. Not just who wins 1 game at the end of the season. That's a crazy was of defining competitiveness.

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Post by Brendan on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 3:33 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.

Not sure about half. Maybe 5.

I’d say all 4 of the Irish, both of the Scottish (already more than 5) are in with a chance of making the play-offs. The others that stand a chance are Scarlets and Cheetahs.

Seems about right - we carry 3 weaker teams but overall it is very open

Also look at the last 5 years - the Premiership has been won 4 times by Saracens and once Exeter.
In the same time the Pro14 has been won by 4 different teams and that doesn't include Munster and Ulster who are serious contenders

There is little doubt which league is the more open and competitive  

To look at it properly, you'd need to analyse the whole season - see the points difference in all games across all matches. Not just who wins 1 game at the end of the season. That's a crazy was of defining competitiveness.

Last year's play offs weren't sorted until the final two weeks of the season.  In Conference A Connacht secured 3rd with two games to go while Ospreys secured 4th on the final day against the blues.  In Conference B 3-5 also was a few points difference each week during the campaign with places changing constantly.
The bottom (of the 14) was only decieded on the last weekend also and the three bottom teams bounced around a bit too.

This season has carried on with no one knowing who will get the top three spots in each conference (apart from Leinster) and the final has not been the same two teams each year.
Connacht beat Leinster semi - Ulster & Glasgow
Scarlets beat Munster semi - Leinster & Ospreys
Leinster beat Scarlets semi - Munster & Glasgow quarter - Edinburgh & Cheetaths
Leinster beat Glasgow semi - Munster & Ulster quarter - Connacht & Benneton

If Sarries don't make the playoffs Exeter will win.  I don't think anyone believes otherwise.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 5:23 pm

BamBam wrote:
miaow wrote:
BamBam wrote:To see a great example of the success of salary / spending caps, just look at how much they've stopped Saracens / Man City / PSG from doing what they please


Hopefully that's about to end.

Top class posting with the benefit of hindsight thumbsup

Do you have a prediction for last week's lottery numbers too miaow?

What a totally toxic and prissy comment...unbelievable.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 7:22 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

In the PRO14 - any one of about half the clubs are serious contenders every year.

Not sure about half. Maybe 5.

I’d say all 4 of the Irish, both of the Scottish (already more than 5) are in with a chance of making the play-offs. The others that stand a chance are Scarlets and Cheetahs.

Play offs? I thought "contenders" means contending for the title. I can't see Edinburgh or Cheetahs winning the final. Connacht don't look that great this year either.

Oh that’s convenient. If you’re in the play-offs then surely you’re a genuine contender for the title? I think it was last season that we went into the final weekends of the domestic season with a host of teams genuine contenders for at least 3 of the play-off places.
Well I guess Leinster are strong favourites but it hasn’t happened yet. Connacht have been impressive thus far, so I’m not sure what you’ve been watching. I think they could gradually slip out of the race though, giving that everyone’s internationals are coming back in whilst theirs are injured.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 8:50 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I said they were spending over 20m, not that it was their salary cap. Poor choice of words from me, as we know players have multiple income sources through their club investors and profile. It’s common sense really. It’s already been pointed out to you (the salary cap) on this very thread. The only person who looks ridiculous here is you, being overly defensive on a subject we are merely discussing. It’s a little funny actually, which is why I pitched in, slow day see Smile.

What were Toulouse spending 20m on?

Flight to the South Pacific.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:21 pm

Leinster are the Saracens of the Pro14. It's a pretty fair comparison to make.

Then, excluding Exeter, like in England there are a host of clubs there or thereabouts. Glasgow, Munster, Ulster, Scarlets being the bigger 4. Edinburgh, Cardiff, Ospreys, Cheetahs, and Connacht are all on that tier - but the Ospreys might be considered to have dropped out of it considering their financial issues. I'd say they're in their own little tier with Benneton as 'teams who are underperforming due to huge money issues', with Benneton being further down the path to recovery on that front.

The Dragons, Zebre, and Kings all prop up the league and would be the equivalent of London Irish and whoever else is on the constant relegation merry-go-round.

I think the comparisons between the two leagues are quite fair. Both have two huge clubs who can field 2-3 'first team' quality XVs, based in large, wealthy capital cities, and who are well integrated in to the schools/academy system. The rest of the league plays catch up for the most part, though Exeter a model of success that basically cannot be replicated by anyone else such are their circumstances.

Sarries deserve the book thrown at them. They've bent the rules for years. Everyone knows. I knew in 2011 that they were having houses effectively given to them. To do that, you have to be whiter than white, and they haven't been, so...unlucky. Take you medicine.

As for the England team...good point. I would say it's less likely to annoy the younger players, but as Saracens boys are at the heart of that team - Farrell captain, Itoje the 'lead by example' player, George and Kruis at the lineout - there's the potential for it to go one of two ways. Either they deal with it well, or it'll be a slow drip-drip of their authority over the next few weeks and months, and by the time they meet back up for England, possibly resentment, and that would be a killer.

I think that's unlikely though.

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Post by BamBam on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 11:17 pm

miaow wrote:

As for the England team...good point. I would say it's less likely to annoy the younger players, but as Saracens boys are at the heart of that team - Farrell captain, Itoje the 'lead by example' player, George and Kruis at the lineout - there's the potential for it to go one of two ways. Either they deal with it well, or it'll be a slow drip-drip of their authority over the next few weeks and months, and by the time they meet back up for England, possibly resentment, and that would be a killer.

I think that's unlikely though.

Edited - absolutely no need for comments like that Bambam. We have recently given a general warning about these kind of posts.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 14 Nov 2019, 10:22 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50407548

Sarries are yet to formally appeal against the ban. They have until Monday 18th November to do so.

They have hired FTI Consulting to help manage the fallout from it all though.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:14 am

Various sources suggesting that Saracens are not appealing the decision, but FTI's last word was an appeal would be placed before the deadline. Any appeal would not be resolved until March/April.

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Post by RDW on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:23 am

I would be amazed if they didn't appeal the fine - it must be one of the biggest in sporting history never mind in rugby history.

Although I'm sure they've made a lot of money off titles which they shouldn't have won.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:29 am

RDW wrote:I would be amazed if they didn't appeal the fine - it must be one of the biggest in sporting history never mind in rugby history.

Although I'm sure they've made a lot of money off titles which they shouldn't have won.

The grounds on which they can appeal are:


  • there has been an error of law
  • the decision is irrational
  • there has been some procedural unfairness



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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:32 am

LondonTiger wrote:
RDW wrote:I would be amazed if they didn't appeal the fine - it must be one of the biggest in sporting history never mind in rugby history.

Although I'm sure they've made a lot of money off titles which they shouldn't have won.

The grounds on which they can appeal are:


  • there has been an error of law
  • the decision is irrational
  • there has been some procedural unfairness



If they appeal and lose can the punishment be increased ?

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:42 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
RDW wrote:I would be amazed if they didn't appeal the fine - it must be one of the biggest in sporting history never mind in rugby history.

Although I'm sure they've made a lot of money off titles which they shouldn't have won.

The grounds on which they can appeal are:


  • there has been an error of law
  • the decision is irrational
  • there has been some procedural unfairness



If they appeal and lose can the punishment be increased ?

No, but they would be liable for all legal costs.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:44 am

You'd assume though that PRL had their own lawyers looking at all lawful and legal issues that arose or may arise before making the judgement?

I mean it's hardly new news, the suspicions or the investigations.  A lot of time has passed.  Surely to make such a judgement at this point means much deliberation has gone in to the legal framework of the judgement.

If Saracens now appealed and won.... would they then feel they had grounds for seeking compensation?  They could claim reputation damage and sponsorship problems.

If Saracens actually made money from the initial PRL judgement....... methinks all hell would break loose amongst the other teams.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 11:56 am

PRL did not make the decision. The whole thing was handled, as per the agreements, to a 3rd part- from memory Sporting Resolutions. The head of the panel was a former Chief Judge and Lord of the Rolls. They would have assessed the Salary Cap regs, Saracens dealings and whether the agreement they had signed up to was legally binding. That will be the main reason they could appeal if they attempt to show that what they had signed up to was against the law - but that would create different problems.


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Post by SecretFly on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 12:02 pm

Sorry. I was always a little worried at me stating it as a PRL investigation .... but used it as shorthand for an admin investigation in the absence of me knowing the full detail.

Third party investigation it is.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 15 Nov 2019, 12:14 pm

It is complicated. PRL Salary Cap Manager did the investigation and deemed there was a breach. At that point they provide the evidence to the Third Party, Sarries submit their defence and then the proceedings start. Both PRL and Saracens agreed to be bound by the decision accepting an appeal is allowed under the terms outlined above.


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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 8:12 am

Saracens have, according to the press, decided not to appeal. This is apparently to remove any uncertainty from McCall's planning and not an admission of guilt.

Horsesh1t.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 9:33 am

We is innocent!!!! But because we might upset some people if we appealed, we're prepared to walk to the gallows and be hung.

HorseSchidt.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 10:04 am

Very Happy

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Post by yappysnap on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 11:54 pm

Damn this all makes me happy.

I'd still like to see them have their titles stripped, and they should be forced to drop some players before they play any more games, but you have to love some karma catching up with this club. Who ever believed it was all about the Ipads and trips to Oktoberfest Whistle

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 12:31 am

There's nothing in the regs about stripping titles so it's not happening regardless of what any of us think.

In terms of the squad this season, it's impossible to judge whether a team is over the cap for the current season until it is over and all salary declarations have been made.

If they do nothing you'd presume they will be over but there are means to lower cap spend. Most likely:

- If a player doesn't play a single game all season they can be paid by the club but exempt from the cap. Long term injured players may be 'asked' to do this.

- If you send players out on loan then salary paid by the loan club is deductible from the cap.

- You can have 3 x season long loans which are exempt from the cap.

An issue for Sarries is that the most obvious player to offload would seem to be Liam Williams as he is out injured for most the season, hasn't played a game yet and reportedly wants to move on when his contract expires at the end of the season. He is almost certainly Sarries second excluded player however. So if he moved on they would need to nominate a different marquee. The only players elligible other than Williams are Rhys Carre and Sam Wainwright. Carre will be on a fraction of what Williams is on, hence moving him to a marquee spot would save relatively little in the cap.

Some tough calls will have to be made across their squad. Plenty of prem DORs will probably have shopping lists in their head whether they admit it or not. Isiekwe, Lozowski and Malins out of contract, all very talented EQP players. Lamositele is coming out of contract I believe and is a strong tighthead these days. Michael Rhodes would start for many other clubs and is coming out of contract.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 7:59 am

king_carlos wrote:There's nothing in the regs about stripping titles so it's not happening regardless of what any of us think.

In terms of the squad this season, it's impossible to judge whether a team is over the cap for the current season until it is over and all salary declarations have been made.

If they do nothing you'd presume they will be over but there are means to lower cap spend. Most likely:

- If a player doesn't play a single game all season they can be paid by the club but exempt from the cap. Long term injured players may be 'asked' to do this.

- If you send players out on loan then salary paid by the loan club is deductible from the cap.

- You can have 3 x season long loans which are exempt from the cap.

An issue for Sarries is that the most obvious player to offload would seem to be Liam Williams as he is out injured for most the season, hasn't played a game yet and reportedly wants to move on when his contract expires at the end of the season. He is almost certainly Sarries second excluded player however. So if he moved on they would need to nominate a different marquee. The only players elligible other than Williams are Rhys Carre and Sam Wainwright. Carre will be on a fraction of what Williams is on, hence moving him to a marquee spot would save relatively little in the cap.

Some tough calls will have to be made across their squad. Plenty of prem DORs will probably have shopping lists in their head whether they admit it or not. Isiekwe, Lozowski and Malins out of contract, all very talented EQP players. Lamositele is coming out of contract I believe and is a strong tighthead these days. Michael Rhodes would start for many other clubs and is coming out of contract.

Are Bedford suddenly going to be the team to beat in the Championship Whistle ?

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 8:15 am

Ampthill are currently getting loans from Saracens.

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