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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 8:49 pm

https://twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1163112528832008193?s=19

Sports lawyer Tim O'Connor has pointed out the Home Secretary's statement today, that freedom of movement will end in the event of a no deal Brexit, has immediate ramifications for rugby.

For instance, the EPCR ought to rule on venues and eligibility before next season starts. Just hoping No Deal doesnt happen, or that the Government will change its mind, could leave unacceptable risks for sponsors, broadcasters and supporters.

(Specifically, the problem is that UK professional rugby players will need work visas to play matches in the EU but no system can agreed until after October 31st)

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 10:06 pm

I imagine that there will be a short term deal that allows right to work for those that are already working in those regions. The UK has already started this. A Dutch lad is used to work with and his family have already undergone this despite living and working in the UK for more than two decades.

Whilst the level of incompetentence from the government reaches ever greater levels civil service bureaucrats from each side will have sorted this issue out already.

What happens to those that have not yet commenced their contract overseas is more open to question.

There is of course the likelihood that the commons will veto any attempt to bring about a no deal Brexit so this scenario is unlikely. Of course how they do that remains up in the air with the remainers unhappy with a pro-Brexit temporary leader in the form of Corbyn.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 11:10 pm

There could be any number of deals possible but nothing can be negotiated until after October 31st. No-one can apply for a visa which doesn't yet exist.

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 11:22 pm

There will certainly be some divergence. The level of divergence won’t be clear for some time

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 11:57 pm

A very good reason why all sports fans should be trying to get rid of our current government ASAP. Anything is better for our future than what we currently have in power

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun 18 Aug 2019, 11:59 pm

To be honest not too many are that worried over here better off really

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 8:09 am

Rugby Fan wrote:There could be any number of deals possible but nothing can be negotiated until after October 31st. No-one can apply for a visa which doesn't yet exist.

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

It exists.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 11:46 am

The sheer idiocy that is a no deal Brexit is going to have far more important consequences than its effect on rugby

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 11:54 am

All we need is some Bulldog Spirit.

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Post by demosthenes on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 12:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:All we need is some Bulldog Spirit.

Well, we have seen plenty of Bull**** already!

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 12:09 pm

demosthenes wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:All we need is some Bulldog Spirit.

Well, we have seen plenty of Bull**** already!

Indeed we have. 

I am still trying to work out how much we will have to pay for equipment due to be shipped from Germany to Scotland over the next 6 months. Trying to get straight answers on what duties and tariffs will be paid and whether it is the same if we order and pay up front has proven impossible. So like everything else with this goddawful mess we just have to wait and see.


So back to rugby - will players really need work visas to play a match within the EU? 

Confused about how things will work for NI based players. Not sure where they are officially employed at the moment - are the Irish contracts from Dublin and Ulster from Belfast?

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 12:30 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:There could be any number of deals possible but nothing can be negotiated until after October 31st. No-one can apply for a visa which doesn't yet exist.

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

It exists.
Not that one. The work visa Welsh and Scottish players will need to play in Ireland and Italy for League matches (and Irish & Italians will need for the UK). The same visa English players will need for cup matches in France.


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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 12:55 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:There could be any number of deals possible but nothing can be negotiated until after October 31st. No-one can apply for a visa which doesn't yet exist.

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

It exists.
Not that one. The work visa Welsh and Scottish players will need to play in Ireland and Italy for League matches (and Irish & Italians will need for the UK). The same visa English players will need for cup matches in France.


https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019/04/03/visa-free-travel-after-brexit-council-presidency-and-european-parliament-reach-provisional-agreement/

Depends on our numpties in Downing Street. The EU are happy for visa free travel for 90 days in 180 as long as we agree the same. There's been some mention of an annual of fee of £6 admin fee or some such but that link doesn't mention It. Shouldn't be too much different to those players that require visas to travel and play in Europe currently just most of the squad will be effected as opposed to a handful.

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Post by TJ on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 5:16 pm

No deal means no deal.  Nothing at all and thus the european cup and the pro 14 will be unworkable.  Italian players will not be able to come into the UK.  Republic of Ireland players will not be able to play in the UK.  Our players will be able to go to continental europe because the EU governments are not spiteful.

People seem not to realise this - no deal means exactly that.  No side deals, nothing.

Priti Patel is insisting the border will be closed. No more European cup or pro 14. Of course its possible that Patel will realise how stupid this is

In any negotiaons after 31st there will be 3 questions the UK will have to answer bewfore anything can be discussed. what about the irish backstop, where is th emoney you owe us and what about the rights of EU citizxens in the UK

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Post by quinsforever on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 9:44 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:There could be any number of deals possible but nothing can be negotiated until after October 31st. No-one can apply for a visa which doesn't yet exist.

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

It exists.
Not that one. The work visa Welsh and Scottish players will need to play in Ireland and Italy for League matches (and Irish & Italians will need for the UK). The same visa English players will need for cup matches in France.


UK and Ire have agreed free movement of people as they share a common border as is their right

work visas are not required for professional sportsmen to play their sport in other countries in fixtures. they might need the requisite travel visa, if any.

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Post by quinsforever on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 9:50 pm

TJ wrote:No deal means no deal.  Nothing at all and thus the european cup and the pro 14 will be unworkable.  Italian players will not be able to come into the UK.  Republic of Ireland players will not be able to play in the UK.  Our players will be able to go to continental europe because the EU governments are not spiteful.

People seem not to realise this - no deal means exactly that.  No side deals, nothing.

Priti Patel is insisting the border will be closed.  No more European cup or pro 14.  Of course its possible that Patel will realise how stupid this is

In any negotiaons after 31st there will be 3 questions the UK will have to answer bewfore anything can be discussed.  what about the irish backstop, where is th emoney you owe us and what about the rights of EU citizxens in the UK
rubbish. as you know.

no deal means no withdrawal deal. trade will continue, albeit maybe with new tariffs with the EU (higher) and rest of the world (lower). movement of people will continue albeit not as freely as before.

saying the pro14 is finished and the champions cup etc are finished, is rugby's own project fear.

come on TJ. Really?

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 9:59 pm

Until any new trade deals are signed for most products across the bulk of the countries we trade with WTO tariffs are higher (or the same) as we currently pay. Few actually will come down. 

All the imports my business makes will increase. We tried to source these in the UK but no-one either had the skilled workforce to manufacture what we needed or was willing to tender. We will probably go out of business by Christmas laying off 16 people. No concern to our glorious leaders, just like our sporting concerns.

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Post by quinsforever on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 10:05 pm

really sorry to hear that LT.

i think the EU's glorious leaders bear at least as much culpability as ours. They could have punished and screwed us with a deal we would have accepted, but they went for complete humiliation in the hope brexit would get reversed instead...

so now they get Boris johnson and a government preparing for no deal...

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Post by TJ on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 7:20 am

NO quins - it is true.

Priti Patal has said free movement will end. Rugby players are workers. they would need work permits. No mechanism is in place to provide them. thus the pro 14 and the Europaen cup will not be able to happen as EU and ROI based plaers will not be able to play in the UK

All the EU have done is been consistent and legal and the deal offered was far more generous than most people with an understanding of reality expected. they did not attempt humiliation. You have been drinking too much brexit cool aid

There will be no side deals until the NI issue is settled, the debt is paid and we recognise the rights of EU citizens in the uk

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 7:27 am

I believe even in the right wing craziness that is patel she still expects work visas to exist.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:11 am

TJ wrote:
Priti Patal has said free movement will end.  Rugby players are workers.  they would need work permits.  No mechanism is in place to provide them.  thus the pro 14 and the Europaen cup will not be able to happen as EU and ROI based plaers will not be able to play in the UK


While I agree with the first part, I believe that the place of work for a sportsman in a team sport is deemed their home ground. I have seen nothing to suggest that playing away from home requires a work visa, though it would require a general travel visa.

For individual sports it is different. Golfers, tennis players do need to seek a visa for the Open and Wimbledon if they do not inherently possess the right to work in the UK. This is because each tournament is viewed as a "new job".

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:12 am

On a wider note, a no-deal exit means walking away from the Cotonou Agreement, immediately removing the right of players from South Africa, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc. to be considered for employment in the same way as EU players.

There could be a sizeable impact on domestic competition as a result.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:17 am

Rinsure wrote:On a wider note, a no-deal exit means walking away from the Cotonou Agreement, immediately removing the right of players from South Africa, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc. to be considered for employment in the same way as EU players.

There could be a sizeable impact on domestic competition as a result.

Oh that is very true. 

There were suggestions from RFU (and FA, ECB) that existing contracts would be allowed to be honoured - however that only applies to their implementation of regulations and the Government could choose to over-rule that.

I have no idea what would happen if a club has a contract with a player who the Home Office deem is not allowed to work here on 1st November.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:41 am

It is worth noting that the UK government suspended the need for visas during the Olympic games so that competitors were all free to come and compete. They will arrange something similar to protect sport and stop a national outcry. The EU will do the same as they have committed to matching the UK allowances for freedom of movement and will also want sporting fixtures to continue.

This will be a short term get the season played measure though and won't fix potential signings issues later on.

quinsforever wrote:really sorry to hear that LT.

i think the EU's glorious leaders bear at least as much culpability as ours. They could have punished and screwed us with a deal we would have accepted, but they went for complete humiliation in the hope brexit would get reversed instead...

so now they get Boris johnson and a government preparing for no deal...

The EU leaders have defended their own rights. Which is what they are meant to do. It's not their fault we want to leave. You have to remember that the EU negotiators had to get 27 countries to sign up to the agreement a good number of whom wanted to use Brexit as a chance for personal agendas, e.g. Spain and Gibraltar. When Boris talks so flippantly about reopening negotiations the EU know that means that others will want to reopen talks on their personal agenda as well.

LondonTiger wrote:Until any new trade deals are signed for most products across the bulk of the countries we trade with WTO tariffs are higher (or the same) as we currently pay. Few actually will come down. 

All the imports my business makes will increase. We tried to source these in the UK but no-one either had the skilled workforce to manufacture what we needed or was willing to tender. We will probably go out of business by Christmas laying off 16 people. No concern to our glorious leaders, just like our sporting concerns.

The concern in our labs is that we are also walking away from the EU agreed compliance framework for chemical etc accreditation. It will mean greater audit costs as we prove accreditation to whichever new system adopted by the government (probably the US version) as well as maintaining the EU accreditation so that we can continue to trade. Add to that how difficult it is to get all the required lab consumables from UK sources...

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Post by BamBam on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:46 am

There is no mythical solution to the Irish border that the EU are deliberately not offering us, its just pure fantasy. Only the truly dangerous / idiotic believe that risking a return to the Troubles is worth the unicorns that they have been promising / promised

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:49 am

Just to clarify, rugby players will be employed by thier clubs/unions to play rugby in this country. Playing an away fixture in France will not be considered "working" in that overseas territory.

Its exactly the same as players going to Japan for the world cup. They are not going over there and being paid by a japanese company/group so they will not need work permits.

Similarly the "champions league" in soccerball has teams from outwith the EU in the competition playing, for example when Celtic had to go over to Kazakstan for a game. No work permits were required as no one in Kazakstan were paying the celtic players wages!

The only people who will need to apply for a prok visa are players/coaches who want to come to the UK to work. All this means is that Player A from Italy will need to apply for a visa jsut like Player B form Argentina.
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Post by Irish Londoner on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 10:17 am

quinsforever wrote:really sorry to hear that LT.

i think the EU's glorious leaders bear at least as much culpability as ours. They could have punished and screwed us with a deal we would have accepted, but they went for complete humiliation in the hope brexit would get reversed instead...

so now they get Boris johnson and a government preparing for no deal...

The EU gave the UK government everything it could under the "red lines" set by the British Prime Minister at the time and supported by her then Foreign Secretary (who initially voted to pass the withdrawal agreement in Parliament).

The UK was offered a deal and accepted it, the EU even extended the Irish backstop to cover the whole of the UK, effectively allowing the UK to remain in the UK for trade purposes for free until the final withdrawal terms were agreed.

The fact that the UK parliament is unable to sign off legislation it's own government agreed with the EU is their problem not the EU's.

If the WA had gone through parliament and then been rejected by the EU at a later date the papers in the UK would be full of stories about how the EU had tried to amend an agreement the UK had signed up to in good faith.

From "easiest trade deals ever" and "they need us more than we need them", to "It'll be just like the war" in three years.

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Post by TJ on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 8:39 am

tigertattie - what you say is true now. However that relies on agreements made with the EU and between the EU and other countries. We leave with no deal those agreements no longer apply.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 11:48 am

TJ wrote:tigertattie - what you say is true now.  However that relies on agreements made with the EU and between the EU and other countries.  We leave with no deal those agreements no longer apply.  

No I think that is a more general accepted practice. Where you are deemed to work is dependent on tax law that will not automatically cease under the EU membership termination. At most the players would need a travel visa they won't need a work visa as they will not commence employment in the country they are visiting.

All the countries involved will not want issues hitting sporting fixtures either so this won't be a battle ground area. The ports in Calais and Gibraltar will be the areas where problems will be allowed to occur. Tit or tat arrangements stopping sporting fixtures like the 6N will condemned to the point where no side can be a winner and with large broadcast corporations throwing their weight against the politicians who try and make it a problem. No politician wants the media on the warpath.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 12:17 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:

 No politician wants the media on the warpath.

Except for The Donald.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 12:58 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:

 No politician wants the media on the warpath.

Except for The Donald.

Fix media among other right wing leaning organisations are inside though. He plays them off against each other and pedals the liberal media line. He wouldn't cancel sporting events but he will comment on them for his own advantage.

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Post by quinsforever on Thu 22 Aug 2019, 11:16 pm

let's see what happens between now and october 31st as realisation dawns on the EU that Parliament won't be able to block no deal. And it becomes clear that the only people looking to put borders up in Ireland are the EU...

leads inexorably to either a hard brexit landslide general election, or an EU climbdown on the backstop. The polls are fairly conclusive

As is said earlier, the EU could have screwed us, but they went for complete humiliation, hoping to reverse the referendum result

fwiw i dont think it will affect professional sports competitions one iota. longer term wrt visas maybe. but TJ is plain wrong

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 7:28 am

quinsforever wrote:let's see what happens between now and october 31st as realisation dawns on the EU that Parliament won't be able to block no deal. And it becomes clear that the only people looking to put borders up in Ireland are the EU...

leads inexorably to either a hard brexit landslide general election, or an EU climbdown on the backstop. The polls are fairly conclusive

As is said earlier, the EU could have screwed us, but they went for complete humiliation, hoping to reverse the referendum result

fwiw i dont think it will affect professional sports competitions one iota. longer term wrt visas maybe. but TJ is plain wrong

The EU has treated us no differently then those countries that tried to gain partial access. If you believe the lies that Farage and his buddies tell that we are due some sort of special treatment then that's always going to scew your view on it. If there's no free movement of people (as wanted by the Conservatives) then there has to be some sort of border otherwise what's to stop people heading to Ireland then walking into the country without a visa? It's basic logic.

Brexit has from the start been about maintaining Britain's position as the biggest enabler of corporate tax dodging and allowing Britain to avoid EU tax legislation and become another tax haven for the benefit of the rich. Removal from the EU only weakens us internationally though a succession of PMs have been too weak to use our veto effectively in Europe.

I agree though next season's fixtures won't be effected it will only be signings from the season after and going forward when whatever visa system is put in place has to be negotiated. As any trade deal we attempt to get over the line will no doubt be subject to visa guarantees (mainly number there of per annum) if we get a quick deal with Australia and South Africa the numbers from those countries might go up.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:21 am

quinsforever wrote:let's see what happens between now and october 31st as realisation dawns on the EU that Parliament won't be able to block no deal. And it becomes clear that the only people looking to put borders up in Ireland are the EU...

leads inexorably to either a hard brexit landslide general election, or an EU climbdown on the backstop. The polls are fairly conclusive

As is said earlier, the EU could have screwed us, but they went for complete humiliation, hoping to reverse the referendum result

fwiw i dont think it will affect professional sports competitions one iota. longer term wrt visas maybe. but TJ is plain wrong

The EU are already well along with their plans for a no deal, they don't want it but they're expecting it.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:59 am

quinsforever wrote:let's see what happens between now and october 31st as realisation dawns on the EU that Parliament won't be able to block no deal. And it becomes clear that the only people looking to put borders up in Ireland are the EU...

leads inexorably to either a hard brexit landslide general election, or an EU climbdown on the backstop. The polls are fairly conclusive

As is said earlier, the EU could have screwed us, but they went for complete humiliation, hoping to reverse the referendum result

fwiw i dont think it will affect professional sports competitions one iota. longer term wrt visas maybe. but TJ is plain wrong

It won't be the EU, it will be the WTO.

If we have no deal with the EU and do not put border checks on the Irish border, we cannot have border checks at any of our ports. Otherwise we are giving preferential treatment to the EU. Similarly, Ireland would have to check our goods coming across that way.

Now the WTO doesn't have an enforcement team, so we could just ignore this rule - and that wouldn't be too far outside the lines of our current playbook. But it doesn't stand well for Global Britain looking to sign quick trade deals around the world if we have reneged on the Withdrawal Agreement that we negotiated to leave on WTO terms, and are now picking and choosing which WTO rules we're actually going to follow.

With respect to tariffs (discussed earlier), on Day 1 of No Deal Brexit all our tariffs would stay the same or go up as we would be paying WTO tariffs everywhere. The only way we would now see a Day 1 improvement would be if the EU had for some reason negotiated HIGHER tariffs with a trading partner - which would never have happened. As we negotiate our own trade deals we would then see the tariffs come down, and whether they ended up higher or lower than our current arrangements depend on the strength of our negotiating team and what we are willing to give up in return.

I'm not sure what you expected from the Withdrawal agreement (other than the backstop which you suggest the EU will have to climbdown on). We haven't even begun to discuss our future relationship. I'm also not sure what you would do about the backstop issue. The silver bullet is technical solutions but the backstop only comes into force after the transition period if our future relationship is one that would require border checks and the technological solutions to do these frictionlessly aren't in place.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:34 am


@simonrug
EPCR - organisers of the Champions Cup and Challenge Cup - have confirmed that for at least the 2019/20 season, a player who is a UK citizen will be regarded as a European player for the purposes of its tournaments.


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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:35 am

TJ wrote: Italian players will not be able to come into the UK.  Republic of Ireland players will not be able to play in the UK.  

That's hilarious fair play. Are you scaremongering for a reaction or do you genuinely believe this horse ****?


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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 7:30 am

Incidentally, if you haven't seen it already, the Sunday Times reported that Patel’s announcement about free movement of people ending on the 31st October has been reversed.

It was a ridiculous statement by the Home Secretary, which threw up unnecessary uncertainty, so that reversal is a welcome recognition of reality.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 8:43 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Incidentally, if you haven't seen it already, the Sunday Times reported that Patel’s announcement about free movement of people ending on the 31st October has been reversed.

It was a ridiculous statement by the Home Secretary, which threw up unnecessary uncertainty, so that reversal is a welcome recognition of reality.

Patel appears to be one of the most incompetent MPs going. I can see her getting herself sacked sooner rather than later. She's in the job because Boris wanted some right wing recognition in the cabinet and some diversification was helpful to distance the party from the Islamaphobia accusations.

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Post by maestegmafia on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 10:03 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Incidentally, if you haven't seen it already, the Sunday Times reported that Patel’s announcement about free movement of people ending on the 31st October has been reversed.

It was a ridiculous statement by the Home Secretary, which threw up unnecessary uncertainty, so that reversal is a welcome recognition of reality.

Patel appears to be one of the most incompetent MPs going. I can see her getting herself sacked sooner rather than later. She's in the job because Boris wanted some right wing recognition in the cabinet and some diversification was helpful to distance the party from the Islamaphobia accusations.

I don’t think that you need to add accusations at the end there. The Conservative party are islamaphobic.

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