Wales and Ireland Two warm up test series Match Thread

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 1:46 pm

7th SEPTEMBER 2019
KO: 14:00
IRELAND VS WALES
Aviva Stadium

Ireland

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 91 caps
14. Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 15 caps
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 37 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 19 caps
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 73 caps

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 90 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 119 caps CAPTAIN
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 35 caps
4. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 18 caps
5. Jean Kleyn (Munster) 2 caps
6. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 32 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 18 caps
8. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 15 caps

Replacements
16. Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 69 caps
17. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 30 caps
18. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps
19. Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 47 caps
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 22
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 13 caps
22. Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht) 6 caps
23. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps


Wales

Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester Warriors); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues); Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Elliot Dee (Dragons), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Alun Wyn Jones (capt, Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints), Owen Watkin (Ospreys)


Last edited by maestegmafia on Thu 05 Sep 2019, 3:25 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 2:01 pm

When are Ireland announcing their team. I thought it was lunchtime today???

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 2:09 pm

maestegmafia wrote:When are Ireland announcing their team. I thought it was lunchtime today???

15. Will Addison (Enniskillen/Ulster) 3 caps
14. Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 14 caps
13. Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 6 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 18 caps
11. Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 20 caps
10. Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht) 5 caps
9. Kieran Marmion (Galwegians/Connacht) 26 caps

1. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 29 caps
2. Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 15 caps
3. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 19 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 46 caps
5. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps
6. Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 7 caps
7. Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 58 caps
8. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 14 caps

REPLACEMENTS
16. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 118 caps
17. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 16 caps
18. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 34 caps
19. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 66 caps
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Ulster) 28 caps
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 12 caps
22. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 22 caps
23. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 18 caps

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Post by profitius on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 2:11 pm

Chance for Addison to lay down a marker. A good game could see him make the squad. Chance for Beirne and Conan too.
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Post by rodders on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 2:16 pm

Crikey this team keeps shuffling around. No fly half cover unless they will try Addison?

DK must be still in the frame.
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Post by The Oracle on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 2:26 pm

The Wales team has got the feel of the sort of team we put out for the ‘lesser’ AI game. Completely new team, no established combinations, suddenly thrust together and told to go out and perform. It’s such a tough ask and as we’ve seen plenty of times over the years we either come unstuck or very nearly, and that’s against teams usually ranked outside the top 10. So difficult to perform new moves and plays with new people, at a high pace and intensity than in the league, all with an eye on trying to impress enough to make the final World Cup squad. Just hope we don’t try too hard and force things.

I know we have to rotate and give players game time. The warm ups are absolutely necessary. But I think it could be a long afternoon for Wales.
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Post by stevetynant on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 2:41 pm

Just looking at the Ireland Backline and thinking where is the leadership going to come from if things don't go to plan and the pressure is on. You would have to think as well that the back row looks a bit one paced and I could see James Davies getting his chance to shine this week, anyways good luck to both sides

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 2:41 pm

There are a few combos in there

Scott and Owen play together train together at Ospreys. Tomas Williams and Jarrod Evans too, even though buggerlugs is starting hoping Tomas gets plenty of gametime.

Samson and Lias both scarlets and have rob evans on the bench

Backrow has two scarlets regulars

On top of that these guys have all been in camp for nearly two months. I’m sure they can figure out how to plat together

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 4:01 pm

Its an all Munster front row, very interesting. I hope they do well. Kilcoyne has looked good in the loose when he has come on for Ireland so hoping for a big physical game from him.

Also very interesting to see the backrow combo. If POM has a blinder at 7 and Conan is outstanding at 8 the first team might get changed to Stander at 6, POM at 7 and Conan at 8.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 4:12 pm

Ireland clearly have the stronger team out between the both teams. I am not expecting Wales to win this one, but I am really excited to see what this Welsh team can produce.

It's all about performance on Saturday for Wales, this is a game we cam afford to lose. Ireland by 15pts on Saturday, if not, then hmmmm......

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 4:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Ireland clearly have the stronger team out between the both teams. I am not expecting Wales to win this one, but I am really excited to see what this Welsh team can produce.

It's all about performance on Saturday for Wales, this is a game we cam afford to lose. Ireland by 15pts on Saturday, if not, then hmmmm......

Really? Its also an Ireland B team. Thought Wales' depth was good?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 4:35 pm

I thought you had to have 60 caps or something to be in the squad if you played outside of Wales.

Rhys Carre (Saracens)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers)


This is a capped International is it not?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 4:49 pm

It is for Ireland anyway

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Post by Poorfour on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 5:40 pm

It's going to be an interesting game - can Ireland pick themselves up after last week, and can Wales put out the same kind of defensive intensity with such a changed squad? For Joe Schmidt it's a great chance to turn the momentum around if he can spot some areas to target, but Welsh players playing for an RWC place in front of a home crowd have all the motivation they need.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 5:54 pm

Strong Ireland front 5 but do they hope to secure much ball with that back-row against ours?

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Post by Poorfour on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 5:55 pm

O'Mahony's a decent lineout operator. But I think Ireland will be grateful just to win most of their own throws after last week's meltdown.
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Post by Maine man on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 6:05 pm

I like the Ireland team. I really rate Beirne at blindside and looking forward to see how Addison goes at full back.
I think this could be a good game for the neutral. Both teams will give it a go

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 6:08 pm

Ireland’s best back row is probably Beirne, Murphy, Stander - POM should be playing for Young Munster. Conan could come in at 8 for Ireland.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 6:24 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I thought you had to have 60 caps or something to be in the squad if you played outside of Wales.

Rhys Carre (Saracens)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers)


This is a capped International is it not?

If you are playing outside of the country when first called up the current, and soon to be changed, 60 cap rule does not come into play. Rumours abound that the new rules will be 60 caps or 150 regional appearances, unless you are developed outside Wales where there will be no longer any requirement to move to Wales. Not sure what would happen with Carre (or previously Adams) who was in the Welsh system but moved before being capped.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 8:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I thought you had to have 60 caps or something to be in the squad if you played outside of Wales.

Rhys Carre (Saracens)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers)


This is a capped International is it not?

If you are playing outside of the country when first called up the current, and soon to be changed, 60 cap rule does not come into play. Rumours abound that the new rules will be 60 caps or 150 regional appearances, unless you are developed outside Wales where there will be no longer any requirement to move to Wales. Not sure what would happen with Carre (or previously Adams) who was in the Welsh system but moved before being capped.

The rule is under review after the RWC. Not necessarily going to be changed

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 8:27 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I thought you had to have 60 caps or something to be in the squad if you played outside of Wales.

Rhys Carre (Saracens)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers)


This is a capped International is it not?

As mentioned above, the 60 cap thing is more for players choosing to leave Wales when already an established international. If they leave before being capped or come up through the ranks in England then they can be capped. But when their contract comes up for renewal they can become ineligible, according to the policy, if they do not move to a Welsh club. However I think they’ve already gone back on that recently.
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 8:37 pm

Aye, Oracle - the "loophole" created for Tomas Francis being a case in point. I am also confused by Liam Williams availability as pretty sure he had less (still has?) than 60 caps.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 9:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Aye, Oracle - the "loophole" created for Tomas Francis being a case in point. I am also confused by Liam Williams availability as pretty sure he had less (still has?) than 60 caps.

It’s not easy being a country where you are not one of the richest leagues in the world. Like every other nation suffering from the same issue of losing our best players to clubs with lots of budget for wages Wales can only try different things to survive.

This is most likely a debate for another thread LT, not the match thread for this weekends game..!

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 10:12 pm

Aye, MM and one that has been done to death to be honest. 

I do think, good as he was a year ago, one season with Sarries has improved Williams. Should they do the same with Carre it could be a good move for all parties.

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 11:13 pm




Personal defamation is against the rules this is your third strike. Please consider that your behaviour on here is being continuously seen as unacceptable by the moderators

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Post by No9 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 2:24 am

LondonTiger wrote:Aye, Oracle - the "loophole" created for Tomas Francis being a case in point. I am also confused by Liam Williams availability as pretty sure he had less (still has?) than 60 caps.

Liam is eligible as he was already at Saracens when the rule came into force. Those players already under a contract where exempt. The issue will be at the end of their contract if they dont meet the Cap limit. Also, I believe there is exceptions if a contract extension is offered by their current club and also exceptions if they are not offered a contract with a Welsh region. Although looks like that’s about to change after the RWC.

The only player who can justifiably be aggrieved at this, is Rhys Webb, as (it is rumoured but disputed by the WRU) he signed his current contract a matter of hours (maybe a day) before the ruling was announced and wasn’t given any prior notice that this rule was being introduced. He was then (according to his agent) asked to cancel his contract and take a regional place.

So there hasn’t been any breaking of the rule, as such.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 3:22 am

Webb and Biggar probably would have stayed for a little longer had Ospreys shown Tandy the door sooner.... but they extended his contract!

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 3:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:Aye, MM and one that has been done to death to be honest. 

I do think, good as he was a year ago, one season with Sarries has improved Williams. Should they do the same with Carre it could be a good move for all parties.

He was always good but I agree to an extent, winning every weekend has certainly helped him improve. We believe Carre will become very good at Saracens, as did he seeing as he turned down a Blues contract. Going forward, Carre and Francis would be very strong.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:30 am

So, Wales started these warmup playing their GS winning team against England, only making changes due to Injury. This lineup contains some less familiar players. From tomorrow's lineup who is best placed to make a push for a regular starting shirt and who will be lucky to make the 31?

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 8:37 am

Lane and Watkin are best placed. Beard could be pretty well placed, with a big performance and outside chance for Evans at 10.

People I don’t consider to have a chance are Bradley Davies, Steff Evans and probably James Davies out of the starting team (given the 7 cover from Tipuric and Navidi), with Jonah Holmes and Leon Brown probably not really threatening the WC squad either.


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Post by The Oracle on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 9:07 am

Yes, I agree with Risca on some. Lane could be the successor to George North if North's form doesn't drastically improve (and if Lane produces the goods). Centre is a bit barren so yes Watkin could be the future but I've not been that impressed with him so far. We could do with unearthing some others and with getting Scott Williams back to his best.

Adam Beard at 2nd row - it's always AWJ plus one of Beard, Hill or Jake Ball and if needed due to injury then someone like Bradley Davies. Beard seems to have stolen a march on Hill since Hill's injury. But longer term when AWJ retires it will probable be between Hill and Beard and Ball. So we'll see a lot more of those three as starters going forward, with Ball perhaps falling behind a bit due to injury.

Navidi - we'll see a lot more of him I'm sure. Now seen as captain material and with a long term injury to Ellis Jenkins and Faletau. Might get the no.8 spot for the world cup, perhaps?

Aaron Shingler - was immense before his long term injury. A dynamic 6. If he can get back to his pre-injury form then I'd prefer him at 6 to someone like Moriarty or Lydiate.

Tomos Williams - a livewire 9. Gareth Davies seems to be slipping a bit, Webb is exiled and Aled Davies is not the best. So I'd expect Tomos to make at least no.2 scum half and, if his trajectory keeps going upwards, then perhaps even no.1 no.9.

We'll see a lot more of another no.10. Not sure who - maybe Jarrod Evans. Will be interesting to see how he goes. Seems one for the future and I think he he looks good then Patchell will be left off the plane and put on the waiting list.
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 9:26 am

Apparently the agreement between Gats and Schmidt is that they would pick weakened teams for this game and full strength for next week in Dublin. If so is performance more important this week with result secondary, but next week result more important?

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Post by rodders on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 10:35 am

LondonTiger wrote:Apparently the agreement between Gats and Schmidt is that they would pick weakened teams for this game and full strength for next week in Dublin. If so is performance more important this week with result secondary, but next week result more important?

I think for Ireland next week is critical in terms of result, Schmidt has said they are aiming to peak.

I expect we will be not concerned with winning here but looking for a big improvement, Schmidt has as much as admitted they won't get the fatigue out out the players so soon.

I'm hoping we will match up physically, especially in the set piece and show a bit more cohesion.

I am pessimistic though and think we will ship another heavy defeat. The back row is unbalanced and as mentioned above there is a lack of leadership and experience in the backs.

Wales look fitter and hungrier and even with a weakened side they will want to send Gatland off with a good performance.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 10:44 am

Well we are really bad if its another big defeat as this is a Wales B team. Not saying Wales B are bad but they wont really have played together much either.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 10:44 am

Gats having a few digs before the game. He seems to be at his spikiest before Ireland matches:


Warren Gatland wrote:
"I was surprised by the Ireland result against England" 

"This is professional sport and we can put a massive dent in their confidence, and derail them a little bit."

"They are under an enormous amount of pressure back home with a lot of criticism given that they haven't progressed in World Cups further than they probably would have expected," 

"They're coming here knowing they've been criticised, they'll be hurting from last week."

"There are a lot of doubts in the coaches' minds about who their best players are."

"Some of their players are getting a bit older, is it a time to put some of the youngsters in? It's a massive game for Ireland that will answer a lot of questions."

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 10:53 am

That's always been his style. I think people dont take much notice to it anymore.

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Post by rodders on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 10:55 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Well we are really bad if its another big defeat as this is a Wales B team. Not saying Wales B are bad but they wont really have played together much either.

I just think we have so much to fix that 7 days can't have made a huge difference.

Ryan, Farrell, Conan, Beirne and Addison will hopefully add a bit of energy but it's an inexperienced looking side, with a lot of new combinations.

We have a bit of impact on the bench but I can see the same issues being present as last week in defense and attack, the only question is whether Wales can exploit them to the same degree.

I hope I'm wrong...

I'm also wondering if the injuries to Henshaw, Sexton and Toner are more serious than being reported. 3 games in and no starts for any of them.

I'm suspecting Henshaw might be left out altgother and Schmidt will take Addison and Conway.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 11:06 am

Yeah you would think that Henshaw and Toner would have started a game but I didnt think Sexton was ever going to start any except maybe the last one.

Although with Toner he may be seen as a very key player given how bad the lineout has been. Cotton wool too maybe?

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Post by rodders on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 11:11 am

I'm guessing re Toner he's a doubt for Scotland hence Henderson second start in a row but next week would confirm. If he's good I'd assume Toner and Ryan will start with Henderson or Kleyn on the bench.

Sexton will travel on one leg but Henshaw is the one I'm wondering on. If Addison is still in the squad then he's still in consideration, you would assume he's competing with Conway but now I'm not so sure... it could be Henshaw is a real doubt.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 11:14 am

Ha, you are dying to know what the squad is arent you Rodders?

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Post by rodders on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 11:17 am

It's giving me sleepless nights already....
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 11:25 am

Haha, que sera sera Rodders. Im sure it will be a good squad. There is no perfect combination of players to cover all positions and eventualities. All teams will get injuries too. Poor Wales lost Faletau and Anscome already.

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Post by rodders on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 1:35 pm

Whatever about the 31 I just hope whatever 23 do the job.

No one is really putting their hands up at the minute. In 2018 we had so many players at the top of their games, now it is almost the opposite.

Best, Stockdale and to a lesser extent POM have been singled out but Ringrose has been very poor as well, pretty much the spine of the side have been under par.

Conway and Farrell maybe are in good form recently, that is about it. Whatever about the result we need to see some big individual performances..
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 1:47 pm

Some of Kearney's tackles last Saturday were dreadful too. I think at this stage even Dan Cole could side step Kearney in a one on one.

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Post by rodders on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 2:02 pm

To be honest Kearney has become very inconsistent. He's capable of one big game every now and again but outside of this he's been pretty poor and error prone.

I get his positional play is fundamental to how we play and that he's a key player but 15 is a real problem.

Addison could have been a real option but for all the injuries this year, maybe Henshaw if he got some game time but we are stuck now.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:40 pm

I am not too familiar with that players that Wales are putting out this week against Ireland.
 
 Is this a second/third string side that Wales are putting  out, if so could this be a touch of complacency on Wales? We are the number 1 team in the world rankings, and it is only Ireland for ffff....sake?

I get it it is only a warm up after all.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 8:07 pm

rodders wrote:To be honest Kearney has become very inconsistent. He's capable of one big game every now and again but outside of this he's been pretty poor and error prone.

I get his positional play is fundamental to how we play and that he's a key player but 15 is a real problem.

Addison could have been a real option but for all the injuries this year, maybe Henshaw if he got some game time but we are stuck now.

He'll be hung onto for the WC if he doesn't get injured in the next few weeks, but yes, 15 needs to be a much more dynamic and consistently challenging player.  Kearney is lauded these days for his positional instincts in defence.  I think we need a player feared for initiating attack.  

But still, our defensive preferment in terms of style can't be blamed on any individual player.  Our style is coached.  Kearney doesn't head for contact over and over and over again exclusively by personal choice.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 8:15 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I am not too familiar with that players that Wales are putting out this week against Ireland.
 
 Is this a second/third string side that Wales are putting  out, if so could this be a touch of complacency on Wales? We are the number 1 team in the world rankings, and it is only Ireland for ffff....sake?

I get it it is only a warm up after all.

I don't think it's complacency though. I just think Gatland thinks he has a squad of players in Wales that are in a good place to put in a good challenge regardless of which 'string' he chooses. I just think Gatland has calculated that Wales are capable of beating this Ireland team. He's a very good coach. Based on Ireland so far this year, I wouldn't reject his calculations.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 10:04 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Some of Kearney's tackles last Saturday were dreadful too. I think at this stage even Dan Cole could side step Kearney in a one on one.


I reckon him, SOB and Healey are past it; although each of them could still do a grand job with Leinster. Why does Joe persist with these guys and POM? There are better options available; Beirne, Jack McGrath for example. I guess it's not as bad as Gats persisting with Aled Davies, but that's mainly the regions' for continuing to give him a contract.

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Post by theslosty on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 10:15 pm

Healy is a strange one to single out he's been more or less back to his best level. Thought he was one of the few Irish forwards to perform reasonably well in the 6N. Jack McGrath on the other hand has been very disappointing since the Lions tour for whatever reason and doesn't really deserve to go to Japan.
I'm still a big fan of POM for his breakdown and lineout work and his general wild-eyed Munsterness and he can deliver huge performances - but there are often games where outside of the lineout he is very quiet. I understand his primary responsibility in open play are rucks and he's not asked to make many tackles but his carrying is probably a bit lacking for a Test blindside.
Beirne is a super player and there has to be a space for him in the 23 at least for me.
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