The Covid-19 serious chat thread

[RDW]

First topic message reminder :

A thread set up to house the more serious chat relating to the global pandemic.

Nothing has changed in what we expect from discussions on here though:

- Please treat each other with respect
- Avoid hyperbole and fake news
- This thread shouldn't be used for a political soapbox, but political discussion will likely happen. See point 1!

A reminder that we have a community thread here for people to vent, look for help and all round support each other. https://www.606v2.com/t69506-the-covid-19-community-thread#3896653

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Now he is cutting off the questioners half way through.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Can he not see that he is on a hiding to nothing and that it is not going to go away.

Cummings and others are going to have the last 4 months of their lives analysed by the press looking for any misdemeanours to broadcast.

[GSC]

This is a disaster. This isn't just something that gets shrugged off as yesterday's news and only ever referenced on twitter. There is genuine anger over this and the PM just stoked the flames.

[GSC]

https://twitter.com/UKCivilService/status/1264600481688702977?s=19

[GSC]

Keir Starmer is having a weekend

[navyblueshorts]

Yes, I'm back. Whatever.

How dare the PM insult me, as a father, saying I'd do the same as Cummings?

Boris Johnson - utter Charlie, Uniform, November, Tango.

Cummings couldn't get sister to pick up sprog and take back to Durham? Cummings hasn't got anyone else to take sprog to Durham? What of those whose father in laws aren't minted and have a castle w/ spare properties in which to self-isolate? **** right off.

No admission, even, that on reflection, this was a mistake but that it was understandable re. child. Just barefaced FU response.

Absolutely spitting mad. **** the lot of them. Hancock, Sunak - the lot of them. I gave you lot the benefit of the doubt re. Covid based on where we were at start, you ****ing morons. You disgust me.

For me (not that I voted for them last time), but this is a Blair/Iraq moment for me - there's no way, no matter what they do now, that I'll vote for them next GE.

Sadly, there's nothing anyone can do. ~5 years, no election and no way of enforcing anything.

[navyblueshorts]

https://twitter.com/UKCivilService/status/1264600481688702977?s=19

Whatever that was is 'unavailable' now...

[navyblueshorts]

https://twitter.com/UKCivilService/status/1264600481688702977?s=19

Whatever that was is 'unavailable' now...

Ah. Seen it now on BBC. Cutting!

[guildfordbat]

I found that presentation highly offensive.

[navyblueshorts]

I found that presentation highly offensive.

Yeah. You and me, both.

[GSC]

The childcare Poopie doesn't even stand up to scrutiny but it's a small part of it anyway.

Everyone who couldn't see a loved one while they were suffering or stuck alone trying to manage children have basically been told their sacrifice was pointless by the cabinet and now the PM in the last 24 hours. And all to save an advisor.

The health secretary saying his own instructions were subject to instinct, the attorney general saying breaking the law is fine if you have a justifiable reason. And all to save an advisor.

Just a bunch of over promoted lightweights desperately clinging to the power they've inherited despite a lack of talent and backbone.

I am incandescent. I won't be forgetting in a hurry.

[123456789.]

Pretty special that a government that won election by positioning himself as the antidote to London Centric Liberal elites out of touch with the public then conspired to allow its Chief-of-Staff to make a mockery of the sacrifices of millions of people by going to stay in a house on his parents' land. Might be the weekend that Starmer wins the next election.

[Samo]

Its times like these I realise how lucky I am to have someone like Nicola Sturgeon. She hasnt been perfect and theres been a few serious questions raised but she’s head and shoulders above the absolute shower of Poopie in No. 10 right now.

Didnt take very long for May to lose her ‘Worst PM Ever’ crown.

[123456789.]

I'm struggling to work out what is Conservative about this government. I believed that Conservatives believed in maintaining and reforming the institutions of our country. Important things like the Impartiality of the Law courts, Parliamentary Democracy, the Rule of Law etc. Since its foundation this government has tried to shut parliament, then alleged bias on the part of the courts. Now its top official has decided the laws don't apply to him.

One important thing that I've seen from all of this is that at the time of Cummings travel the R rate was 3. So if he passed it to one person it would and could have spread like wildfire.

[jimbopip]

Nice to see Mr Blue Shorts in fine voice: sorry to see you so upset though.
Would anyone care to bet against Cummings standing up tomorrow and saying that even though he has been vindicated he feels his presence would be a distraction from the important work the government is doing and so, reluctantly, he is stepping aside. (Knighthood to come)
Boris saves face, stood by his mate.
Cummings , not sacked, left on his own terms.

It'll all be forgotten by the next election.

[GSC]

That would make sense if Boris saved face in that scenario rather than whatever that performance was, and the cabinet defending it yesterday

[123456789.]

I don't think there's any chance that he'll resign. I have been wrong before. I have no higher knowledge than anybody else, this is a sports forum. However, I suspect the reason he won't resign is the same reason that he made the trip in the first place. He simply does not care. It seems he feels that there is a Westminster cabal that runs around making a storm about things while the general public outside is disinterested or disgruntled by the whole process. Remember when people thought the Prime Minister might resign over the prorogation debacle and then he didn't and then he won a massive majority. Cummings probably thinks this applies now. I think he's wrong, there is anger across the board about this.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Yes, I'm back. Whatever.

How dare the PM insult me, as a father, saying I'd do the same as Cummings?

Boris Johnson - utter Charlie, Uniform, November, Tango.

Cummings couldn't get sister to pick up sprog and take back to Durham? Cummings hasn't got anyone else to take sprog to Durham? What of those whose father in laws aren't minted and have a castle w/ spare properties in which to self-isolate? **** right off.

No admission, even, that on reflection, this was a mistake but that it was understandable re. child. Just barefaced FU response.

Absolutely spitting mad. **** the lot of them. Hancock, Sunak - the lot of them. I gave you lot the benefit of the doubt re. Covid based on where we were at start, you ****ing morons. You disgust me.

For me (not that I voted for them last time), but this is a Blair/Iraq moment for me - there's no way, no matter what they do now, that I'll vote for them next GE.

Sadly, there's nothing anyone can do. ~5 years, no election and no way of enforcing anything.

I hate to tell you that we told you what Johnson was like. As the saying does "I will promise you anything as long as I don't have to deliver". Boris has always from his early political days, throughout the Mayoral times and now stood up for the political elite and his friends whilst mouthing off about the inequalities of life and how unfair they were and how he was going to fix them. As long as it meant him spending lavish amounts on his friends (garden bridge), possible lovers ( Can't remember her name-Yank)and political backers (think of a large country off the coats of Japan) he will promise anything. He does not have a truthful bone in his body.

BRING BACK SPITTING IMAGE, JUST THINK OF WHAT THEY COULD DO WITH HIM.

[guildfordbat]

Pretty special that a government that won election by positioning himself as the antidote to London Centric Liberal elites out of touch with the public then conspired to allow its Chief-of-Staff to make a mockery of the sacrifices of millions of people by going to stay in a house on his parents' land. Might be the weekend that Starmer wins the next election.

Johnson has lost this voter from the last election. Whilst I would never claim to speak upon behalf of anyone other than myself, I doubt I'll be alone.

So angry.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

They deserve this. Unabashed attack on the teaching unions through the press and now they have their own rules. I’d call for a teacher strike on the first day, making sure children of key workers are allowed in and otherwise staff strike outside

[Duty281]

I'm struggling to work out what is Conservative about this government.

There hasn't been a government close to the values of Conservatism since the days of Thatcher.

It'll all be forgotten by the next election.

Agreed. It won't be remembered in three months time by the majority of voters. If this had happened just before an election, Cummings would be for the axe (before being brought back after said election).

[tigertattie]

Its times like these I realise how lucky I am to have someone like Nicola Sturgeon. She hasnt been perfect and theres been a few serious questions raised but she’s head and shoulders above the absolute shower of Poopie in No. 10 right now.

Didnt take very long for May to lose her ‘Worst PM Ever’ crown.

Hold on a minute. Sturgeon also refuse to sack the chief medical officer when she went to her second home, twice. It took an almighty public backlash for her mind to be changed.

20p says the public backlash Boris is having will see Cummings sacked also this putting the two examples of utter gobshiterey in complete parallel with the same outcome. This showing that the Scottish government are just as out of touch and in it for themselves as Boris and his shower of cretins

[123456789.]

I agree it won't be remembered by most voters, or at least voters will have different priorities by then. However I tend to think it's big events that define voters instinctive loyalties. Labour ruptured a lot of them with Jeremy Corbyn and Brexit. Equally Johnson forged a lot of them in that period too. Events like this cut loose people from those ties. Especially when the whole position adopted in 2019 was that an out-of-touch remainer cabal had lost any notion of the people they served.

[guildfordbat]

Nice to see Mr Blue Shorts in fine voice: sorry to see you so upset though.
Would anyone care to bet against Cummings standing up tomorrow and saying that even though he has been vindicated he feels his presence would be a distraction from the important work the government is doing and so, reluctantly, he is stepping aside. (Knighthood to come)
Boris saves face, stood by his mate.
Cummings , not sacked, left on his own terms.

It'll all be forgotten by the next election.

Voters will still remember those who have died, many needlessly. Cummings' actions and Johnson's inaction will have only increased that suffering.

[jimbopip]

Mr Bat, I cannot believe that we now know going into lockdown a week earlier would have saved 30 000 lives and Boris isn't dangling from a lamppost.
He's got 5 years to spin his way out of it.

[Samo]

Its times like these I realise how lucky I am to have someone like Nicola Sturgeon. She hasnt been perfect and theres been a few serious questions raised but she’s head and shoulders above the absolute shower of Poopie in No. 10 right now.

Didnt take very long for May to lose her ‘Worst PM Ever’ crown.

Hold on a minute. Sturgeon also refuse to sack the chief medical officer when she went to her second home, twice. It took an almighty public backlash for her mind to be changed.

20p says the public backlash Boris is having will see Cummings sacked also this putting the two examples of utter gobshiterey in complete parallel with the same outcome. This showing that the Scottish government are just as out of touch and in it for themselves as Boris and his shower of cretins

Atleast they both admitted error and that what she did was wrong. I said she hasnt been perfect, but atleast she didnt go out on national TV and blatantly lie to the public about it, and defend Calderwoods actions.

[123456789.]

Mr Bat, I  cannot believe that we now know going into lockdown a week earlier would have saved 30 000 lives and Boris isn't dangling from a lamppost.
He's got 5 years to spin his way out of it.

If anyone can get through this it's Johnson. He has done enough to end about five careers and he serves in the highest office in the land.

[guildfordbat]

Mr Bat, I  cannot believe that we now know going into lockdown a week earlier would have saved 30 000 lives and Boris isn't dangling from a lamppost.
He's got 5 years to spin his way out of it.

If anyone can get through this it's Johnson. He has done enough to end about five careers and he serves in the highest office in the land.

Hi folks - I don't deny what either of you say but do feel Johnson will need every day of those 5 years to spin his way out. Many now feel massively aggrieved and grandparents like me especially. A Prime Minister - even one as cunning and underhand as Johnson - who separates grandparents from their grandchildren and families and then shows contempt for their sacrifices does so at his peril. I for one will not forget.

Btw, Jimbopip, please feel free to call me Guildford.

[123456789.]

Turns out Cummings' Uncle passed away in this time as well. His Mother has said people are forgetting they are a grieving family. The fact is that it's not his impulses that are the problem, people can appreciate the urge to protect children or the emotions involved in grieving for an Uncle. The point is that we were all asked to make those sacrifices. I think they have underestimated the scale of anger more widely on this. My Mum is not political. She votes for the Lib Dems every time because her Father did too. She in furious and quite upset, she missed a close friend's funeral a week before lockdown was started. Not because it was illegal to go but because she felt it was the right thing to do.

[GSC]

I don't think the anger over this will vanish. Maybe the outrage but everyone has some kind of lockdown feeling they can relate to, while Boris and the cabinet throw us all under the bus to protect one man.

The general public isn't that stupid, we can see this for exactly what it is.

[tigertattie]

How easy is it to start a coup?

Asking for a friend

[Pr4wn]

Yes, I'm back. Whatever.

How dare the PM insult me, as a father, saying I'd do the same as Cummings?

Boris Johnson - utter Charlie, Uniform, November, Tango.

Cummings couldn't get sister to pick up sprog and take back to Durham? Cummings hasn't got anyone else to take sprog to Durham? What of those whose father in laws aren't minted and have a castle w/ spare properties in which to self-isolate? **** right off.

No admission, even, that on reflection, this was a mistake but that it was understandable re. child. Just barefaced FU response.

Absolutely spitting mad. **** the lot of them. Hancock, Sunak - the lot of them. I gave you lot the benefit of the doubt re. Covid based on where we were at start, you ****ing morons. You disgust me.

For me (not that I voted for them last time), but this is a Blair/Iraq moment for me - there's no way, no matter what they do now, that I'll vote for them next GE.

Sadly, there's nothing anyone can do. ~5 years, no election and no way of enforcing anything.

You're letting your anti-government bias..... nah I can't do it. Welcome back, mate

[Pr4wn]

Johnson sacking Cummings would be like Kermit sacking Jim Henson.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I couldn’t go to my aunt’s funeral this week and had to watch on Zoom. We had to have a discussion over whether my Nan, her mother, should be able to go.

Cummings and Johnson don’t give a sh*t about normal people. Brexit was one thing, whatever, but voting for this lot now is voting for scum.

[alfie]

Cummings must really believe he is untouchable , judging from his response to the press in the film clips I've seen...

Boris may be determined to hang on to him but I have a hunch there will be - eventually - enough push back from within the party that a way will have to found to get rid of him. And indeed much of the fuss may be just about forgotten in five years : but it may be that (A) a fair few votes have already changed over this affair and won't change back ; and (B) even for those who still support Boris and his mates a bit more gloss has come off their brand - so they might not be quite as wedded by the time the next stuff-up happens . As it surely will.

And of course , next time around , it looks as if the opposition have found themselves an electable leader...

[guildfordbat]

Cummings must really believe he is untouchable , judging from his response to the press in the film clips I've seen...

Boris may be determined to hang on to him but I have a hunch there will be - eventually - enough push back from within the party that a way will have to found to get rid of him.  And indeed much of the fuss may be just about forgotten in five years : but it may be that (A) a fair few votes have already changed over this affair and won't change back ; and (B) even for those who still support Boris and his mates a bit more gloss has come off their brand - so they might not be quite as wedded by the time the next stuff-up happens . As it surely will.

And of course , next time around , it looks as if the opposition have found themselves an electable leader...

Hi Alfie - although you are on another continent, as regards things back home you are on the money for sure.

Important for Starmer that he gets good and effective people around him and that the public see that. Highly unlikely that Corbyn would ever have won an election but the harm done by Diane Abbott should still not be underestimated.

This one voter has changed and won't be changing back.

[MrInvisible]

Completely agree with Alfie that 'brand Boris' has been tarnished a lot here.  The government cabinet is hardly packed with popular figures - just look at Gove, Raab and Patel, but Johnson until now has retained popularity with the public at large - the man who can finally 'get Brexit done' and no doubt attracting some personal sympathy over his own battle with Covid-19.  Additionally there are many who may not be natural Tory voters (e.g. Red Wall seats) who have been giving the benefit of the doubt, on Brexit and on handling of the crisis.  

This will be a watershed moment for a number of these voters, and I feel we have seen the high point of popularity of Johnson and the government - its only going to be downhill from here (albeit from a high starting point, a 20 point opinion poll lead).  They may get some plaudits for 'delivering Brexit' if they do indeed get a deal, but given the economic fallout we are going to get already from Covid-19 global depression, I feel many will not be in a celebratory mood.

I also agree with the analysis that the way the election was framed as EU referendum part 2, 'stick it to the elites, get Brexit delivered' makes the current scandal even more toxic, more so than it would have been for Cameron.  Is there a PMQs on this week?  If so, Starmer will no doubt be relishing some awkward questions about Cummings. Even if Cummings goes today a lot of damage has been done already.

I personally think Johnson may not stay as Tory leader that long - I'm sure Hunt and Gove are already plotting in the background on when to make a move - I would not be surprised to see yet another Tory leadership coup/election before end of 2021, as part of a further attempt to maintain power and control the narrative as 'brand Boris' depreciates further.

[Samo]

Cummings to make a statement later today. Im not sure what to expect. Will he double down and claim he did no wrong or is he going to resign to try and save face for Johnson? I honestly have no idea anymore. Regardless if he resigns or not the damage has already been done.

[jimbopip]

Cummings to make a statement later today.  Im not sure what to expect.  Will he double down and claim he did no wrong or is he going to resign to try and save face for Johnson?  I honestly have no idea anymore.  Regardless if he resigns or not the damage has already been done.

In true Parliamentary style may I refer the honourable poster to my previous comment?

Would anyone care to bet against Cummings standing up tomorrow and saying that even though he has been vindicated he feels his presence would be a distraction from the important work the government is doing and so, reluctantly, he is stepping aside. (Knighthood to come)
Boris saves face, stood by his mate.
Cummings , not sacked, left on his own terms.

[guildfordbat]

Cummings to make a statement later today.  Im not sure what to expect.  Will he double down and claim he did no wrong or is he going to resign to try and save face for Johnson?  I honestly have no idea anymore.  Regardless if he resigns or not the damage has already been done.

In true Parliamentary style may I refer the honourable poster to my previous comment?

Would anyone care to bet against Cummings standing up tomorrow and saying that even though he has been vindicated he feels his presence would be a distraction from the important work the government is doing and so, reluctantly, he is stepping aside. (Knighthood to come)
Boris saves face, stood by his mate.
Cummings , not sacked, left on his own terms.

I hope you're right, Jimbo, but I'm not so sure that Cummings will be resigning when he makes his statement this afternoon. It's also reported he'll be taking questions - I doubt he would be doing that if he was planning to walk; it wouldn't be necessary. More likely planning and hoping to bullsh*t his way out of trouble.

Can't see it working though. Let's hope the Durham police can find something and get it to stick.

[jimbopip]

I genuinely get the feeling that the Durham police are being quite "proactive" in this. I was saying to Mrs Pip that Cummings' whereabouts on the days in question could easily be ascertained by looking at his mobile phone and/or looking back at traffic cameras, BUT the police could only do that without his consent if there was the question of a criminal act being committed or a formal complaint being made against him. Then Lo and Behold last night Sky were saying the person who claims to have seen him in Barnards Castle was lodging "an official complaint". I wonder who he has been talking to. Certainly the insistence that the police never spoke to Cummings or his family, and the subsequent rubbishing as "palpable falsehoods" by the PM, is pretty clearly contradicting the Durham police statement that they spoke with the owner of the house; Cummings' father.

My take is that they are unhappy at two infected people potentially compromising the safety of their local residents, then lying about it, then calling their own professional honesty into question.
If the retired teacher who says he saw Cummings feels he has been slandered , "palpable falsehoods", and insists that the police review potential evidence I get the feeling that the Durham constabulary will do everything they can to find that evidence if it exists. All within the letter of the law of course.
If they produce evidence then Cummings and Johnson will be well and truly Donald Ducked.

Personal disclaimer; son of a shop steward, General Election usually vote Labour or Lib Dem ( living in Essex it doesn't make any difference) have long believed Johnson actually lacks a personal moral compass and is unfit for office.

[123456789.]

It's the big wait now to find out if a man who has made his career disdaining people can win over an angry nation in one press conference.

There is one conspicuously absent person in all of this...

[jimbopip]

Wee Nicola has weighed in...and then some:erm:

Boris Johnson chose “political interest ahead of the public interest” by refusing to sack Dominic Cummings, Nicola Sturgeon has said.
Scotland’s First Minister accused Mr Johnson of jeopardising public health messaging by backing his political adviser after he travelled to Durham.
Ms Sturgeon told the BBC’s Good Morning Scotland programme that Mr Cummings should leave his post or risk undermining people’s trust that following the coronavirus guidance was a collective effort.
Ms Sturgeon said: “I’m very concerned and – I say this with a very heavy heart – I really do fear that Boris Johnson has decided to put political interest ahead of the public interest.
“The consequences of that are potentially very serious.
“Trust in public health messaging is very important and arguably, as we go into the phases where we start to lift lockdown, that becomes even more important because we rely less on the letter of the law, and much more on guidance and appealing to people’s good judgment.”
Asked about Mr Cummings driving from London to Durham with his young child and symptomatic wife, Ms Sturgeon said: “I think there will be families up and down the length and breadth of the UK who have had these same dilemmas, but they stuck to the rules because the rules were the rules.
“Of course everybody sympathises with parents who are worried about children and how their children will be looked after if they fall ill, but he was not alone.
“I think that is the issue here, that others follow the rules with all of the difficulty and all of the agonising that has come with that.
“The sacrifices people have made in recent weeks – not seeing ill family members, not being with family members perhaps before he passed away, not being able to attend funerals – these are enormous sacrifices and everybody has had to make them.
“I think that has been important and getting a sense… that we are all in that together.”

I can't wait to see what Jane Godley makes of this.

[guildfordbat]

Particularly for Alfie and other cricket folk:

David 'Bumble' Lloyd on twitter: ''Incensed doesn't come close ... I haven't left my house for 10 weeks, other than to walk ... who is this f-?!ing tit Cummings?''

The above retweeted by Sky News' Mark Austin with the comment: ''The Mail is one thing, but if you've lost Bumble, you've lost the country.....''

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I hope he doesn’t resign. I want them to be exposed for what they are

[Samo]

While Im glad more and more people are starting to realize that this government is a shambles, I can't help but wonder why its taken them so long?

[jimbopip]

Here is a timeline of what has happened so far...
23 March: Boris Johnson tells the UK public they "must stay at home", not meet friends or family members they do not live with, while those with symptoms have to self-isolate
27 March: Mr Cummings is seen leaving No 10 Downing Street. Transport Secretary Grant Shapps later tells the BBC that Cummings travelled to Durham on 27 or 28 March.
30 March: No 10 says Mr Cummings is self-isolating at home with coronavirus symptoms His parents' cottage is not his home: was Downing Street lying our lied to?
31 March: Police in Durham are "made aware of reports that an individual travelled from London and was present at an address in the city". They say an officer spoke with Mr Cummings' father, and he confirmed his son had travelled with his family to the North East and was "self-isolating in part of the property". Cummings and Downing St maintain the police never spoke to anyone "in the family". Who's lying here?
5 April: An unnamed neighbour tells the Daily Mirror and the Guardian that Mr Cummings was seen in his parents' garden. Downing Street says "no comment" . So he has covid and he's out of doors!
12 April: Mr Cummings visits Barnard Castle, 30 miles from his parents' home in Durham, according to The Observer and Mirror
14 April: Mr Cummings is photographed in Downing Street for the first time since 27 March
19 April: He is seen in Durham by an unnamed witness, Observer and Mirror reports this month say. Downing Street says this is "false"

Obviously, there is enough here to have sacked him. Grant Shap, Gavin Williamson et al must be held to account for their unwavering adherence to the "he did nothing wrong line."

[GSC]

If Cummings was going to resign he would've done it before Boris went on TV yesterday

[jimbopip]

If Cummings was going to resign he would've done it before Boris went on TV yesterday

No, I think they actually thought they would get away with it.

[guildfordbat]

Jimbopip - a pint for you as my guest at the Oval once we can go there if Cummings resigns today.

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