England: 8 Nations

First topic message reminder :

Not sure if theres already a thread kicking about but seeing as the prem is back I thought it may be nice to argue over the numerous players impressing.

As ever it seems to be scrum half, flankers, centre and full back are where there are chances for people to force their way in. Can't say I've ever been able to call what Eddie Jones thinks but Willis and hill must be tempting him to widen the player pool. A number of scrum halfs have started well also but has the time come for Spencer or Robson? Thought Maunder was very good too and Mitchell showed great flashes.

I'm at a bit of a loss for full back based on the games last week. Furbank looked anonymous and let's face it Daly is a Jones favourite.

Yeah but I cant help think if only Lawes in the final. Looked a 6 packing down at lock. Not as if Launchbury is iffy in open play. Tried to get a balance of the tight carrying with outside as well and I do think that pack has the balance. Only what I'd go for anyway. I suspect we'll see lawes itoje vunipola and a forward packed bench from the actual professional coaches.

I agree completely geordie on choices but then a core settled side. I can accept the 50 50 ish choices on styles etc but it does need a strategy for mid to long term. Great set of players.

i rate Obano at LH very highly aswell and i think he will give Genge some competition there.

But for me...Scrum Half is the critical spot.

As to the team...what do we learn from the WC semi final and Final...that take us forward to the next level..ie winning the final - something i actually think we will do at the next world cup.

Fixture list:

https://twitter.com/autumnnations

14th November - England vs Georgia
21st November - England vs Ireland
28th November - Wales vs England
6th December - England vs TBD

So England play Barbarians, Italy, week off, Georgia, Ireland then Wales. Then probably France or Scotland.

Probably couldnt have picked better fixture order to build momentum.

Ireland have to play Italy, France, week off, Wales, England then Georgia. Week before the Italy game the Leinster team probably playing in europe final too. Going to be a big ask for them to keep performance levels up for near 8 weeks.

I really hope these matches go ahead. Be nice to have something start, middle and finish like this.

Makes you wonder whether Jones will have a look at a whole host of "new faces" in the Quilter Cup match vs the Baa-Baas on 25th October with a view to parachuting them in for the 4 games after the 6 Nations.

I think there'll be a lot of experiments going on in his head. Surely Malins is worth a look at 15?

Yes and no. I assume the Saracens lads will be playing in most of the games to keep up levels, providing they go out to Leinster next week (and in Farrells case maybe win back some public support). Then you have to consider the make up of the final on 24th Oct, day before the Barbarians game. If Exeter v Bath for example thats a lot of players from the match-day squad unavailable anyway for that match and possibly the Italy game too.

How the Barbarians will work is a big question too with the bubble restrictions on 20 odd players from different countries. Unless its going to be made up of others from the Premiership I suppose.

Will EJ use this tournament as a experimenting one?

France have got a nice easy group...

How about Wales & Ireland:
1 Genge / Obano
2 George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Lawes / Launchbury
6 Curry
7 Underhill
8 Vunipola

9 Randall / Mitchell / Maunder
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Manu
14 Nowell
15 Watson

For Georgia
1 Genge / Obano
2 LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Johny Hill
6 Ted HIll
7 Willis
8 Curry

9 Mitchel / Randall/ Maunder
10 Farrell
11 May
12 Manu
13 Lawrence / Marchant
14 Thorley
15 Watson

Yes I like it Geordie. EJs surely has to move on from Youngs but Spencer & Robson should be in the melting pot.

Personally I would like Eddie to try to find a credible alternative to Vunipola (Who isn't Tom Curry). It just isn't good to be so reliant on one player who is quite injury proven (a problem that may get worse as he reaches his late 20s and early 30s).

Marchant, T Hill and one of the scrum halves are the guys I want to see get decent game time this autumn.

I like Willis but I don't think he's bringing anything new to the team and first and foremost Jones likes his back row back on their feet as quickly as possible where Curry and Underhill are unmatched, it's also why I still expect to see Ludlum quite heavily involved despite most thinking his time has gone. With Hill it's the variation he brings to the back row with his sheer bulk that will be more important going forward than Willis' ability over the ball. On top that you have Ben Earl who is both a destructive tackler and a strong carrier, for the England back row I again think that's more important than what Willis brings to the team.

In the past few years England have performed at their best when they dominate the gain line, Ireland last year springs to mind where phase after phase Ireland were going backwards, that constant pressure then allows Curry, Underhill and Itoje to pounce on opportunities when they present themselves, it's not a tactic that needs a jackal who goes for everything.

Mr Bounce wrote:Makes you wonder whether Jones will have a look at a whole host of "new faces" in the Quilter Cup match vs the Baa-Baas on 25th October with a view to parachuting them in for the 4 games after the 6 Nations.

I think there'll be a lot of experiments going on in his head. Surely Malins is worth a look at 15?

Malins at 10 this weekend. Was hoping he would get an extended run at 15.

Watching the start of the Wasps vs Bristol match, and Brad Shields created the first try with a charge down. Suddenly occurred to me, not many, if any, have included Shields in a list of England's current backrow candidates. I'm not itching to see him in a shirt again but Jones liked what he saw, and there's a fair chance he would have made the final World Cup squad if he hadn't been injured.

It's funny how quick we seem to be to forget players like Mark Wilson and Shields when both could easily make the next World Cup. Shields is younger than Jamie George.

I also notice that Luther Burrell, a Lancaster favourite, has failed to make any sort of impact in Rugby League and is likely to return to Union. England seem fairly well stocked in midfield but don't have too many out and out centres like Burrell. They could do worse if Tuilagi suffers another long term injury. I would think he has burned a few too many bridges to make it back to an England appearance.

You must be welsh to pull that name out of the hat. Given hes been out of union for a while and was subbed in the first half by jones and never seen again I doubt Jones has even thought twice..

Cumbrian wrote:Personally I would like Eddie to try to find a credible alternative to Vunipola (Who isn't Tom Curry).  It just isn't good to be so reliant on one player who is quite injury proven (a problem that may get worse as he reaches his late 20s and early 30s).

Agree i dont like Curry at 8 either...

At the moment..you have:

8's
Dombrandt
Mercer
Simmonds

Player who can cover the whole back row:
Earl
Ludlum

Other:
Move Ted HIll to 8. One im quite keen on.
Move Willis to 8

Had to switch off the wasps game after 30 min but from the write ups Malins sounded like he upped his game from 10.

Re 8, I think jones will persist with Curry particularly after the rule changes.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Player who can cover the whole back row:
Earl
Ludlum

Wilson and Shields can do that, as well as covering lock. Think Teimana Harrison can cover the whole back row too, although Northampton's recent results will mean his recent good form will count for little.

The new refereeing of the ruck must affect how Jones wants to operate. He was frequently happy to play a lock/flanker in the back row but poachers are getting a lot more turnovers now. Then again, he'll remember getting outmuscled in the World Cup final, so will want a team capable of handling that better.

I think Wilson will be phased out. There are kids available with more potential. And im a massive Wilson fan for obvious reasons
Shields isnt that great, Ted HIll etc all offer far more potential.

I think Harrisons ship has sailed aswell, for example Earl is bigger and far more destrcutive alround.

I agree he will be concerned how much they were outmuscled in the final.

I don't think England need to worry too much about muscle. They're the second strongest team in the world in physicality but that doesn't mean they have to be #1 to beat the Boks. I think it's clear they have to outmuscle the All Blacks to beat them (and NZ have responded by picking some massive Maori and Polynesian boys in the backrow because they know this) but for SA I think England can still play toe to toe or even on the backfoot and win.

England lost because they put so much in to the semi final the week before. Physically and mentally they were drained. Rugby has shown it's become a game where the best teams can beat each other on any given day but most teams cannot beat everyone week on week. The Six Nations shows this and now that NZ have declined and SA have improved it's true in WCs again as well.

It's always an arms race to find the most physical yet capable rugby players but I don't think England need to worry too much about that. It's more like getting the players they have to play with the ferocity that the Boks and Kiwis do. More players need to commit like Underhill and Curry do and accept their careers might be over by 28 for England to win a world cup. They also froze mentally in the final and we saw the lack of leadership from Farrell and Itoje and several others who are lauded when things go well but don't seem to have any solutions when out of their comfort zone. I think getting overpowered in the final wasn't all down to how much they can deadlift or how much power they produce in the scrum - a lot of it was down to the stunning effect of playing a Bok team that had more nous and savvy than England. Did some of the players think they'd already won after demolishing NZ in what was probably the best England performance of the professional era? It looked that way to me and from that point all the fight seemed to drain from the players. The body language in the final even before the scoreboard is terminal is very revealing. I don't think EJ needs to solve that tbh. You can't change the past. And he definitely doesn't need to solve it just by adding 'more' power as if that's even an option. Developing a reserve scrum half in the 2 years before the WC would have been a more fruitful idea.

Tight head does seem to be a problem position for England though. Generally, 12 and 8 are problem positions for every country in world rugby due to how attritional they are. EJ isn't stupid there will be a reason why he is holding back on capping Dombrandt and Hill. Maybe it's just a case of attrition, wear players out and then drop the next one in?

We lost as a few players absolutely bottled it. Are you Welsh rrb?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:Any word on who is broadcasting this tournament? I can't seem to find anything.

According to walesonline Amazon prime are in the running. Presumably for the games which arent tied to the 6 nations leftovers. Not a great fan of them as every time I've watched live sport on there it's been poor quality.

Living in Ireland then, I am not going to see the England games apart from the Ireland one live am I? Basing that on the football matches on amazon weren't available here.

What a pain. Thought I was great buying a Now TV sports pass for this on an offer.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We lost as a few players absolutely bottled it.

There were plenty of reasons for the loss as I mentioned. Putting it on one reason, or a few players, is cheap and lazy even from the perspective of a fan.

Nah. You welsh by any chance?

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We lost as a few players absolutely bottled it. Are you Welsh rrb?

There is a strong suggestion that RRB has feline tendencies.

Can't be. They left in a huff and was a person of their word.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We lost as a few players absolutely bottled it.

Assuming this refers to RWC final, we lost because pretty much every England player was off the pace being set by SA. Full credit should be given to the winners.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We lost as a few players absolutely bottled it.

Assuming this refers to RWC final, we lost because pretty much every England player was off the pace being set by SA. Full credit should be given to the winners.

Agreed, but from an England perspective you want to take the honest reasons for the failure and address them, not just rely on the 'oh well, fair play' response that I think Lancaster and Robshaw's England were synonymous with. There are plenty of things England ought to focus on but I don't think more and more power is anything of specific concern. England showed their power against NZ, there were other more important factors that lost them the game against SA, including just an unlucky draw that saw them play the two best teams in the world on consecutive weeks.

May have to revisit my number 8 choice. Dombrandt is a classy player.

And Thorley has had a terrible 20 mins!

Does anyone know when the next EPS is announced??

rugby racing and beer wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We lost as a few players absolutely bottled it.

Assuming this refers to RWC final, we lost because pretty much every England player was off the pace being set by SA. Full credit should be given to the winners.

Agreed, but from an England perspective you want to take the honest reasons for the failure and address them, not just rely on the 'oh well, fair play' response that I think Lancaster and Robshaw's England were synonymous with. There are plenty of things England ought to focus on but I don't think more and more power is anything of specific concern. England showed their power against NZ, there were other more important factors that lost them the game against SA, including just an unlucky draw that saw them play the two best teams in the world on consecutive weeks.

I do not believe our preparation was as good as it could have been. We in effect played our "Final" the week before. I am not saying it was a complacency as such, but subliminally I do wonder if there was the feeling of the hard job having been done.

SA on the other hand came out fighting as those portrayed as underdogs often do.

Is the other Willis, Tom at number 8 one to watch? Havent seen a huge amount of the games since they started up again but i noticed hes been getting some games.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is the other Willis, Tom at number 8 one to watch? Havent seen a huge amount of the games since they started up again but i noticed hes been getting some games.

I had heard that the Wasps academy coaches had predicted that Willis Jr would be a better player than Willis Sr.

I managed to catch the highlights of the Wasps vs. Bristol game, Malins is a seriously impressive player (even if it was a against a weakened team). I just hope he doesn't go back to Saracens and do a 'Jamie George'. (e.g. seem like a youngster until he is 26/27 because he takes years to establish himself as first choice, I mean George is 30 next month?!).

I like rugby playing brothers, the comment about them is invariably that the younger one is going to be better than his older brother! Quite often true mind!

Yeah id heard that aswell LT, so it will be interesting to see how he develops.

Theres some serious bloody competition for that England back row!

LondonTiger wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We lost as a few players absolutely bottled it.

Assuming this refers to RWC final, we lost because pretty much every England player was off the pace being set by SA. Full credit should be given to the winners.

Agreed, but from an England perspective you want to take the honest reasons for the failure and address them, not just rely on the 'oh well, fair play' response that I think Lancaster and Robshaw's England were synonymous with. There are plenty of things England ought to focus on but I don't think more and more power is anything of specific concern. England showed their power against NZ, there were other more important factors that lost them the game against SA, including just an unlucky draw that saw them play the two best teams in the world on consecutive weeks.

I do not believe our preparation was as good as it could have been. We in effect played our "Final" the week before. I am not saying it was a complacency as such, but subliminally I do wonder if there was the feeling of the hard job having been done.

SA on the other hand came out fighting as those portrayed as underdogs often do.

That's probably true. Despite an awareness that SA were a threat in the build up to the tournament, by the final a lot of people were writing them off. It's impossible to think some of that didn't seep in to some of the squad but only they can answer.

I wonder if anyone has any inside info on Billy Vunipola's recent comments about letting England down in Japan and caused an issue within the squad? That seems oddly specific and maybe it won't come out until he releases an autobiography but could that be something to do with the week of the final? Drinking? It seemed separate from the homophobia topic that was brought up in the same interview so I don't think it was that.

On a side note, I do think there could be too much navel gazing from England about one defeat. England were fortunate in the group games in that they avoided France and effectively had less than 40 minutes of proper tier 1 opposition to contend with until the knockouts, but once they were there they faced Australia, NZ, SA. As far as I'm aware that would have been the most difficult route to the trophy ever? Or at least equal to any other winner. Australia aren't what they were but they were still a top 5 in the world side and still put up a decent fight. There are some things I think you do have to say 'fair enough' to and one of those would be the draw. England were unlucky to win their group and end up with SANZAR in the knockouts. Maybe Wales would have ground out a win against England because it was Gatland's speciality, maybe England had blown themselves out mentally and physically and would have struggled against France or Ireland in the final, but facing SA straight after NZ was poor luck on England's part. By contrast, SA played NZ first up, then the rest of their group, then Japan and Wales. The previous opponents matter more and more these days when it comes to putting in big, winning performances. I expect we'll see that with the Lions as well and the side will show big rotation from week to week to cope.

I'm assuming you're welsh then rrb?

Willis has picked up the player of the month award now. Followed by Thorley and LCD in no order. Lifted this from wasps website.

Monye today acclaimed the “simply outstanding” Wasps back-rower Jack Willis as he was named Gallagher Premiership Rugby player of the month for August 2020.

Wasps have gone from a mid-table side to genuine Gallagher Premiership title contenders since rugby restarted and Willis has been a major part of that run of form. For the season he currently has 39 turnovers, 20 more than his nearest rival, Blair Cowan of London Irish.

Monye said: “Jack has been a key reason why Wasps have been flying since the restart. We can talk about Wasps’ attacking game, which has been excellent, while they also have new management and they all look to be enjoying their rugby. 

“But defensively they have been very good and one of the key features in their game, what’s making them a well-rounded side is their work at the breakdown – that’s been spearheaded by Jack Willis. 

“He’s such an impactful player, he has so many big moments in games that either wrestle back momentum, create momentum or encourage teammates to become better players. 

"He's just been simply outstanding - in every part of his game. Whether it be carrying, lineout, defensively, but more so than anything at the breakdown. Everyone is aware of these new law interpretations and he’s adapted to them really well. It’s been a key feature of his game. 

“His work rate is off the scale but he’s not just been high impact, he’s high quality in everything that he does and that for me is what separates good Gallagher Premiership Rugby players and internationals and potential future internationals.”

This is the second time Willis, 23, has captured the player of the month award having first received the accolade in February 2018, the first time the Wasps tyro was tipped for Test honours.

Monye added: “Jack was due to go to South Africa a couple of years ago and had that cruelly taken away from him due to injury but he can’t be too far away from getting his first senior cap.

“He had his injury a couple of years ago and now this (Lockdown) – and that’s what it does to top players, it gives them hunger and a burning desire to get back and get better – which is what Jack Willis has done. 

“For such a young man, he’s a person that every player follows on the pitch. We get obsessed with his work at the breakdown and rightly so, because it is exceptional, but there don’t appear to be too many deficiencies in his game at the moment.”

Although Covid-19 safety considerations prevented a physical presentation of his award, lifelong rugby fan, Wasps supporter and managing director of Gallagher’s local Coventry branch, Debbie Moss, said: “We might be a little biased here in Coventry but in our view no-one is more deserving of this award than Jack – his epic performance against Northampton Saints speaks for itself, particularly his breakdown masterclass that heralded Wasps’ hugely impressive victory. 

“It’s brilliant to have the season back up and running, especially with Wasps right up there among the top table contenders. Hopefully we’ll also soon be able to resume our spectatorship and hospitality to really show our support as a local business.”

Willis – as part of his prize for being named Gallagher Premiership Rugby Player of the Month – wins a shirt signed by the whole Wasps Rugby squad and framed by Gallagher to be gifted to a local club, school, community group or charity of his choice.

Willis was judged by a panel of experts as the player who made the biggest impact in Gallagher Premiership Rugby over the month of August 2020.

He was involved in a three-way battle to win the award eventually beating Luke Cowan-Dickie and Ollie Thorley to the prize.

Willis was voted for by a panel of media professionals based on his performances in February, alongside a public poll which drew more than 2,000 votes on the Premiership Rugby app. The judges were: Nick Mullins (BT Sport), Alastair Eykyn (BT Sport), Mick Cleary (The Daily Telegraph), Sarah Mockford (Rugby World), Jonny Fordham (The Sun), Jill Douglas (Broadcaster) Robert Kitson (The Guardian), Chris Jones (BBC 5 Live), David Rogers (Getty Images) and Tom Hamilton (ESPN). The panel was chaired by Paul Morgan, Premiership Rugby's Communications Director.

Do you have a little man crush 7.5?

I dont think theres much doubt he'll be in the squad. i wonder if it'll be:
Curry, Underhill, Willis, Earl, Vunipola, Ted Hill

Yup. Second only to Launchbury

When is the squad named for the next set of fixtures?

I have no idea what is happening with the games, is it 6N followed by this Nations Cup followed by the Autumn Ints?

England Autumn 2020 Fixtures:


England v Barbarians
Twickenham Stadium, London
Sunday 25th October 2020
Kick-off: 2:00pm


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Saturday 31st October 2020
Kick-off: 4:45pm


England v Georgia
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 14th November 2020
Kick-off: 3:00pm


England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 21st November 2020
Kick-off: 3:00pm


Wales v England
Venue TBC
Saturday 28th November 2020
Kick-off: 4:00pm


England v TBC
Twickenham Stadium, London
Sunday 6th December 2020
Kick-off: 2:00pm

The Nations Cup fixtures replace what would have been the AIs

Amazon have them all from Georgia afterwards. I think that means it'll be Baa Baas on sky and Italy will remain with the BBC/ITV.

Interesting to see Luther Burrell has been picked up by Newcastle.

Is it miaow? Why?

I think Miaow posted on the wrong thread. Or even the wrong forum. I’m sure it’ll be another fleeting visit. Whether his choice or not.

Think Sam James could be a shout?

I'd imagine Lawrence may well get a chance in the extended squad but cant see too much change in midfield. Perhaps Daly may find himself at 13 as he isnt a ful back.

Daly to partner Burrell in the midfield then.