England: 8 Nations

Not sure if theres already a thread kicking about but seeing as the prem is back I thought it may be nice to argue over the numerous players impressing.

As ever it seems to be scrum half, flankers, centre and full back are where there are chances for people to force their way in. Can't say I've ever been able to call what Eddie Jones thinks but Willis and hill must be tempting him to widen the player pool. A number of scrum halfs have started well also but has the time come for Spencer or Robson? Thought Maunder was very good too and Mitchell showed great flashes.

I'm at a bit of a loss for full back based on the games last week. Furbank looked anonymous and let's face it Daly is a Jones favourite.

Will he continue with Curry at 8?

Curry is undroppable. Personally I'd be moving towards curry, willis and Dombrandt with hill on the bench for these ser of games. I can very much see jones keeping curry at 8 having underhill chopping people down all the time and willis hovering for turnovers. Could be good if we continue to see the rules going as they are.

You cant drop Underhill...him and Curry are first names on the teamsheet

Just think willis is the better player. Probably the form player of the prem last week and if he keeps it up he will be hard to ignore. With vunipola back as well it certainly means jones is going to earn his pay.

Im not sure he is yet. Underhill is an abslute beast.

Jones is going to have his work cut out.

Wasnt it yourself who wanted more ball carriers or was it sarge? Certainly more available now than was to Lancaster but is the balance right with a itoje lawes lock combo or would you say hill at 6 underhill and curry may balance that?

Oh that was me...and i think Willis is some player...

But i just think at the moment..a combo of Curry and Underhill is top class. World Cup finalists...and if you add an explosive ramgpaing 8...thats a good back row.

Id love to see Ted Hill in there...move him to 8. or Dombrandt

I agree our lock combo is someonthing that needs looked at. Im hoping that Ikopku can become the beast in there...We're lacking a real deal Martin Johnson or Simon Shaw.

Underhill's point of difference is his amazing physicality/ defence, to borrow a Rocky reference " Everything he hits, he destroys". Does Willis have an equal point of difference? I've seen that he is dynamic and good over the ball, but is he sufficiently good enough at these things to dislodge Wunderhill or the boy wonder?

Underhill is actully not a bad carrier either. Its maybe something that goes under the radar.

For me....as much as i rate Willis, i think those two are set in stone. The question is does Eddie put Curry back to 7 where he should be...or keep up this No.8 experiment, which i dont really like.

Im a huge fan of Ted HIll. His size and sheer physicality. Him and Underhill in a back row would be fearsome...with Curry just loving life picking off turnovers, running the show like a rolls royce.

I think Willis point of difference is that he has shown at GP level at least that he can offer all 3 - ball carrying, destructive defence and I'd say the best over the ball of the three of them

He's not as good a link player as Curry, he's not as big a hitter as Underhill but he can do both and I'd back him to pilfer more ball than the other two.

It's a very good problem to have

Would love to see
6. Hill
7. Willis
8. Curry
At some point but doubt it will happen!

Who are the certainties?

George, Sinckler, Itoje, Underhill, Curry, Ford, Farrell and Slade?

Sinckler itoje curry farrell may and watson I'd say. No one is pressuring Daly that much either unfortunately.

Ah im still not sold on Slade...maybe at 12 pulling the ropes...but not at 13.

I want an all action fireworks type of player in that spot. Keen to see how Marchant has developed. Is Manu out of contention as he's probably not gonig to be around for the world cup?

Ollie Lawrence is the next cab off the rank isnt he?

BamBam wrote:I think Willis point of difference is that he has shown at GP level at least that he can offer all 3 - ball carrying, destructive defence and I'd say the best over the ball of the three of them

He's not as good a link player as Curry, he's not as big a hitter as Underhill but he can do both and I'd back him to pilfer more ball than the other two.

It's a very good problem to have

I still feel Curry is better over the ball, especially as he tends to be more intelligent in deciding when to compete. Willis goes for everything, and too often ends up on the ground leaving the defence short or concedes a penalty.

He has an absolutely ridiculous amount of turnovers though.

I cant remember a time when we were actually arguing over top class options in Englands back row...good times.

And theres others also...the other Curry, Ludlum etc etc..

And you've not even named Ben Earls.

Malins starts at full back this weekend. Fingers crossed for him.

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:I think Willis point of difference is that he has shown at GP level at least that he can offer all 3 - ball carrying, destructive defence and I'd say the best over the ball of the three of them

He's not as good a link player as Curry, he's not as big a hitter as Underhill but he can do both and I'd back him to pilfer more ball than the other two.

It's a very good problem to have

I still feel Curry is better over the ball, especially as he tends to be more intelligent in deciding when to compete. Willis goes for everything, and too often ends up on the ground leaving the defence short or concedes a penalty.

Nailed it; if you go for everything you will turnover the ball more often but also concede more penalties, Curry is very good at knowing when to do it and the speed he gets back onto his feet and into the defensive line is incredible.

I'd be sticking with the tried and tested for now; Underhill and Curry at 6&7 with Ludlum and Wilson competing for the bench spot.

Found the stats. Before the weekend willis had 28 turnovers and got about 6 at the weekend. Next nearest was Blair Cowan on 15.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And you've not even named Ben Earls.

Malins starts at full back this weekend. Fingers crossed for him.

How could i forget him!! He's outstanding. ANd theres Simmonds who in another time a few years back would have been set in stone in the England back row.

I think Mark Wilson might be moved on now...as Eddie will look to get his squad ready for the next WC...and theres some crackers to choose from, who will be around for years. .

GeordieFalcon wrote:I cant remember a time when we were actually arguing over top class options in Englands back row...good times.

And theres others also...the other Curry, Ludlum etc etc..

Just to put a dampener on the optimism. I still feel that Thomas Young is the best openside at Wasps, and he cannot get near the Wales squad right now.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I cant remember a time when we were actually arguing over top class options in Englands back row...good times.

And theres others also...the other Curry, Ludlum etc etc..

Just to put a dampener on the optimism. I still feel that Thomas Young is the best openside at Wasps, and he cannot get near the Wales squad right now.

But Young has been capped by Wales, so what relevance is that?

Contenders for the autumn matches (apologies for forgetting anyone's favourite):

Loosehead - Mako, Marler, Genge

Mako is the man in possession, but issues with his tight game have not gone away and we still have to see how the situation at Saracens will affect their players. Marler may well be eased out (ease himself out). Real chance for Genge to push his case and maybe even play his way onto the Lions squad.
Bubbling under: Obano, Moon, Hepburn

Hooker - George, LCD

Jamie George has not been at his best in the last 12 months. Similar to Genge, LCD has a good chance to push his claims.
Bubbling under: Singleton, Dunn, Taylor
Longshots: Thacker


Tighthead - Sinckler

With the end of Dan Cole and the lack of progress in those pushing to back up Sinckler, not a position of strength.
Bubbling under: Williams, Stuart
Longshots: Painter, Heyes


Second Row - Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Ewels

Itoje is World Class and for the Autumn should be o for match sharpness. Lawes and Launchbury are class, Ewels is not a fab favourite but the coaches love him.

Bubbling Under: Hill, Isiekwe


Back Row - Curry (T), Underhill, Ludlum, Vunipola, Earl

Barring injury, Wilson and Shields will probably not be included. Number 8 is still an issue. Fully fit and Billy is world class, but short of fitness he is an issue. Really not convinced by Curry at 8. Prefer to see him on the flank.

Bubbling under: Hill, Willis, Dombrandt, Curry (B), Hughes, Simmonds, Mercer.


Scrum Half - ?????????

Youngs, Spencer, Robson, Mitchell & Heinz all contenders for selection, but this is still a position of concern. Youngs is the man in possession, and will probably play - but who will be on the bench?


Fly Half - Ford, Farrell

Ford is, probably, the best 10 available to England, but will only play if Farrell is selected at 12.

Bubbling under: Smith, Umaga, Simmonds

Centres - Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph

All three were in the RWC squad and are likely to be in the Autumn squad if fit.

Bubbling under: Marchant, Lawrence, Devoto


Back 3 - May, Watson, Daly, Nowell

As for the centres, these guys will be in the squad if fit. Cokanasiga will also be ooked at, but fitness not a given.

Bubbling under - Thorley, Furbank.

Fluxy wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I cant remember a time when we were actually arguing over top class options in Englands back row...good times.

And theres others also...the other Curry, Ludlum etc etc..

Just to put a dampener on the optimism. I still feel that Thomas Young is the best openside at Wasps, and he cannot get near the Wales squad right now.

But Young has been capped by Wales, so what relevance is that?

The relevance is that while we are bragging about the quality of our guys, one of them is perhaps only second best at his club to a guy who is unable to get into his national side.

You know me when I have a favourite I bang the drum. Willis is better than youngs but hes my choice at blindside anyway. I think much like curry he wont be considered as very good (probably more outside england) until he has that run for england. I think he will get a run this autumn and he will go.on tour with the lions. Calling it now.

Nice list above by the way and yeah missing a couple of.my favourites! So much depends on luck how with injuries, either avoiding them or a first steamer picking one up. A lot of great players have only got that chance with someones misfortune.

Not to big up a rival site, but Planet rugby have done quite a good analysis of England's back-row situation at them moment. They are quite disparaging about Billy V.  I kind of agree with some of their analysis, he needs to up his game because he does have his drawbacks.

https://www.planetrugby.com/englands-back-row-form-guide/

They predict that Jones will go with:

06. Jack Willis
07. Sam Underhill
08. Tom Curry

but would prefer the following in the future:

06. Ted Hill
07. Jack Willis
08. Tom Curry

Isn't Thomas Young a victim of 'Gatland's law'? I reckon he would be in the Welsh squad otherwise.

Johnny Hll is an interesting shout at lock. He's improving all the time.

Id really like to see some match stats about what Ewells actually does? Is it the number of rucks he hits, tackles per game, turnovers per game...etc??

He must be hitting high numbers to keep being included. Id love to see how he compares to Sean Robinson for example. (Not that im pushing him for England by the way)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Johnny Hll is an interesting shout at lock. He's improving all the time.

Id really like to see some match stats about what Ewells actually does? Is it the number of rucks he hits, tackles per game, turnovers per game...etc??

He must be hitting high numbers to keep being included. Id love to see how he compares to Sean Robinson for example. (Not that im pushing him for England by the way)

Some general stats here:

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/player/?PlayGuid=CE445208&TeamId=1

Will see if I can find anything pertaining to lineout stats.

Cumbrian wrote:Not to big up a rival site, but Planet rugby have done quite a good analysis of England's back-row situation at them moment. They are quite disparaging about Billy V.  I kind of agree with some of their analysis, he needs to up his game because he does have his drawbacks.

https://www.planetrugby.com/englands-back-row-form-guide/

They predict that Jones will go with:

06. Jack Willis
07. Sam Underhill
08. Tom Curry

but would prefer the following in the future:

06. Ted Hill
07. Jack Willis
08. Tom Curry

Isn't Thomas Young a victim of 'Gatland's law'? I reckon he would be in the Welsh squad otherwise.

See id love to move big Ted to 8 and then we're good.

6 Underhill
7 Curry
8 Hill

Willis / Earl on the bench..

https://index.rugbypass.com/compare/player:21167:20984:20440

I don't know how they calculate their statistics (simply says they 'measure performance' two minutes prior to an event), but you can compare Jonny Hill (can't see championship players) and Charlie Ewels on this site.

On that evidence Hill is a superior lineout forward to both Itoje an Ewels.

Cumbrian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Johnny Hll is an interesting shout at lock. He's improving all the time.

Id really like to see some match stats about what Ewells actually does? Is it the number of rucks he hits, tackles per game, turnovers per game...etc??

He must be hitting high numbers to keep being included. Id love to see how he compares to Sean Robinson for example. (Not that im pushing him for England by the way)

Some general stats here:

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/player/?PlayGuid=CE445208&TeamId=1

Will see if I can find anything pertaining to lineout stats.

Hmm so in 5 games -

56 tackles
32 carries for 15m (0.47 m per carry)
Turnovers - 1
Turnovers Conceded - 2

Johnny Hill in 12 games
132 tackles
90 carries for 167m (1.86m per carry)
Turnovers - 4
Turnovers Conceded - 7
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Sean Robinson - Baring mind its championship stats...and the massive gulf in standards
17 Games
107 tackles
18 Turnovers
Carries - TBC

Any word on who is broadcasting this tournament? I can't seem to find anything.

From a purely england perspective the remaining 6 nations games will be the bbc and itv. The others will be sky.

Hodge starts at full back tomorrow for Exeter, a very long shot? Not seen him bar for the u20s but sarge and geordie think hes a bit special.

Yeah i noticed he was starting ...he is a bit special. Great Pace, good footwork, scores tries, fantastic kicker. At 6'1 He needs to bulk up a little...but im sure he's at the right place to do that!

But this will be a big game to get his debut in. Bristol...

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:I think Willis point of difference is that he has shown at GP level at least that he can offer all 3 - ball carrying, destructive defence and I'd say the best over the ball of the three of them

He's not as good a link player as Curry, he's not as big a hitter as Underhill but he can do both and I'd back him to pilfer more ball than the other two.

It's a very good problem to have

I still feel Curry is better over the ball, especially as he tends to be more intelligent in deciding when to compete. Willis goes for everything, and too often ends up on the ground leaving the defence short or concedes a penalty.

Actually Curry conceded a couple of breakdown penalties this weekend didn’t he?

Going forward & looking at perhaps a faster game I think Hill, Willis, Curry & Underhill have to be involved in the 23 & then look at the form of Earls, Mercer, Simmonds. Great problem to have as people have said.

I think Ben Earls is class. And playing under Pat lam..he's only going to get better.

He will push them all for a spot.

its going to be great for us watching them all progress and the fireworks that come from it.

I like the versatility that they all have.

Hill could cover lock was well as blindside.
I'd be comfortable with Baggins on either flank, same with Willis.
Curry can cover all three back-row positions, I would argue that Earls could too.
Mercer can cover blindside and 8
Simmonds is an 8, but I think he could make a good linking 7 too.

Any combination of them would slot in comfortably during a gametime injury crisis without causing the pack to crumble.

Straight match up tomorrow night with Curry & Willis facing off each other

Ben rather than Tom.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ben rather than Tom.

Aah yes. Sale didn’t rotate that many players in the last 2 games.

Simmonds would make a great 7...but then i also think he'd be a great answer at 12!

Curry got motm based on turnovers. Willis only got the 1 and 2 pens the other way when he'd turned it over and players were on the wrong side. Good carrying display though, him and Launchbury looked class.

Can see why you like hodge geordie. Live wire and looks a very classy runner. From this game needs to look to improve his kicking which was pretty loose. Can certainly see him knocking on the door in 12-18 months.

Yeah, His first prem game against a team like Bristol. He did ok. He's a young kid. Im sure Baxter would be satisfied with what he saw.

A few dodgy kicks from hand..a few other little things...but not bad.

He'll develop nicely...and he'll put some muscle on aswell.

One to watch for sure,.

Would you say theres a hint of Iain Balshaw when he first broke on to the scene with his explosive running. Thats who i think of at times.

Yes! That was whon was coming to my mind aswell.

Obano and Spencer did themselves a favour in front of jones today. Not sure too many others did.