International teams playing in domestic cups

I won't claim to know much about the logistics of this nor the comparisions I will make to cricket but watching the Churchhill cup last night got me thinking.

Russia it seemed were getting cheered alot by the home crowd as well as people on these forums wanting to see them improve as we all feel a few more competitive countries playing rugby is never a bad thing for the sports profile.

Then I was wondering what if we exposed these teams to a higher level of rugby on a more regular basis. Now I am not suggesting allow these teams compete in the Pro 12(first time saying that) or the AP etc. but could teams like Russia, Georgia, Romania, Canada etc possibly play in the B&I cup or the LV cup to gain some experience playing competitive rugby.

I don't know how this would be done from a logistical point of view, but in Cricket in the county game, don't Ireland & Netherlands compete regularly in this during the summer??

Could this happen in Rugby?

Thoughts welcome.....

Why not? trial period of three years in the Amlin, with a qualifier to limit them to two or four teams initially?

I think this will be a struggle because of how it would affect the Russians or Canadians domestic competitions.

To grow rugby in those countries, they need to develop strong club competitions and having their players missing to go to Europe to play in club competitions is a problem...

A good idea in theory, but in practice it could be tricky. Vasily Armietev (sp?) is Russia’s marquee name, and he’s joining Northampton next season. I’m sure he joined them to improve his own standards, which he’s not going to be able to do by playing against Newport or Bedford (for example) in the B&I cup.

I fear the next team to become a big player in world rugby will have to do what Argentina has, and send all of their best players to play abroad. Although Russia have a professional domestic league already, so they’re one step ahead of the Argies…

They do it in Cricket so why not.

If it helps make rugby a global game, I am all for it.

If it helps a team go above Wales in the rankings in 5 years time, its a terrible idea!

I don't care who plays in the LV cup. It's rubbish.

What about an English FA-style cup for the Jeff and Championship clubs? No seeding but the Championship clubs would have to play the 2 or three games required to make the first round the Jeff clubs enter up to sixteen.

Early rounds to be played in the IWs. Abandon the play-offs and play the semis and final after the league is sorted.

Portnoy wrote:I don't care who plays in the LV cup. It's rubbish.

What about an English FA-style cup for the Jeff and Championship clubs? No seeding but the Championship clubs would have to play the 2 or three games required to make the first round the Jeff clubs enter up to sixteen.

Early rounds to be played in the IWs. Abandon the play-offs and play the semis and final after the league is sorted.

What has that got to do with international teams playing in a domestic competition?

Mickado wrote:

Portnoy wrote:I don't care who plays in the LV cup. It's rubbish.

What about an English FA-style cup for the Jeff and Championship clubs? No seeding but the Championship clubs would have to play the 2 or three games required to make the first round the Jeff clubs enter up to sixteen.

Early rounds to be played in the IWs. Abandon the play-offs and play the semis and final after the league is sorted.

What has that got to do with international teams playing in a domestic competition?

Aha Mickado, you've fallen into the trap of thinking that Portnoy might give a rudey poo about anything other than domestic competition!! just kidding

There's me thinking that people who leave a reply to a post like this might have something to say about it. Sorry, my mistake.

Portnoys, do continue. Your agenda, sorry your idea sounds enthralling.

Not a lot to be honest, Mick.

Who's going to pay for the travel, accommodation and the frequent broken time payments of amateur players (if the can get their time off)?

Plenty of logistical problems there alright, but if they could be ironed out I think this could be a very good idea.

A team like El Salvador rugby get’s 100+ points against it every year in the Amlin, why not replace it with the full Spanish team?

a few points up there around players playing abroad etc.

my understanding is that the Irish players playing county cricket over in the UK don't actually play for Ireland during this time so therefore it works in terms of cricket.

I know Russia would be tough as it does have quite a steady base with regards it's professional league etc.

I know it would take a lot of planing etc. but in theory, I don't think it's a bad solutiion to give these teams more exposure. depending on the Russian league season, it might be possible to be able to play in both to a certain extent.

I would think that a positive step for these teams would be to allow each team in the Pro12 to recruit 1 player from a tier 2 nation without it impacting their NIQ quota. As tier 2 may not be first team regulars but their exposure to professional rugby at a Leinster/Ulster/Munster/Treviso/Ospreys (randomly selected) etc. could let them return back to Russia/their country with experience of a high level of professionalism that could boost a tier 2 team.

Say if this scheme were successful?

Let's pretend that Russia (say) won the Amlin and then went on to win the HEC the next.

They would surely have a claim to join the 6Ns.

Name the Turkeys around the 6Ns table who would vote for that particular Christmas given that there's no room for another two games.

There's a glass ceiling. And that won't be smashed by the cartel.

that's a huge IF Portnoy and something that would never happen any time soon.

if Russia where running a muck in those competitions as you say then they would deserve to be included in a Tier 1 competition.

I believe eventually if/when the Tier 2 teams improve to a high enough standard that the 6N's could potentially adapt a promotion/relugation to and from the 6N's

Isn't the Romanian club in the Amlin already in effect doing this? I think the team is a select team of the best players in the Romanian domestic league.

Spain had a team in this year (I think they came out of a Spain and Portugal club qualifier) and there is no reason as far as I'm aware why they couldn't also have opted to do the same as the Romanians.

The problem for teams like Canada and Russia to a lesser extent is the distances involved both in terms of the time spent travelling to play fixtures and also the costs involved to do it on a regular basis.

snoopster wrote:Isn't the Romanian club in the Amlin already in effect doing this? I think the team is a select team of the best players in the Romanian domestic league.

Spain had a team in this year (I think they came out of a Spain and Portugal club qualifier) and there is no reason as far as I'm aware why they couldn't also have opted to do the same as the Romanians.

The problem for teams like Canada and Russia to a lesser extent is the distances involved both in terms of the time spent travelling to play fixtures and also the costs involved to do it on a regular basis.

I wasn't that the Romanian team was a "select XV". if that's what they do then that could be the answer but it would be no different to send the national squad and have other players keep the league running while they are off touring as Pro 12, Top 14, AP all do during the 6N's or world cup.

some amount of ironing out would need to be done but I just feel it would give them more competitive game time to keep improving.

mickyt wrote:

snoopster wrote:Isn't the Romanian club in the Amlin already in effect doing this? I think the team is a select team of the best players in the Romanian domestic league.

Spain had a team in this year (I think they came out of a Spain and Portugal club qualifier) and there is no reason as far as I'm aware why they couldn't also have opted to do the same as the Romanians.

The problem for teams like Canada and Russia to a lesser extent is the distances involved both in terms of the time spent travelling to play fixtures and also the costs involved to do it on a regular basis.

I wasn't that the Romanian team was a "select XV". if that's what they do then that could be the answer but it would be no different to send the national squad and have other players keep the league running while they are off touring as Pro 12, Top 14, AP all do during the 6N's or world cup.

some amount of ironing out would need to be done but I just feel it would give them more competitive game time to keep improving.

There’s a key difference between Romania sending the national team and sending a “select XV” from their domestic competition though.

None of the best Romania players play in the domestic competition.

Very good point Mickado.

Yeh I think for it to work it would need to be a national team getting full exposure. support financially would be required no doubt from the necessary bodies but sure it just got me thinking last night after watching them that there must be other ways to keep them progressing

Mickado wrote:There’s a key difference between Romania sending the national team and sending a “select XV” from their domestic competition though.

None of the best Romania players play in the domestic competition.

It does make a good way to "feed" the best players in the domestic competition into the professional teams abroad - the end result is more Romanian players getting full time rugby careers which will increase their available pool of talent. Until the Romania can start to support one or more teams who can compete on a regular basis with other club sides, then I think the best option for them is to get players playing in professional teams in other nations so they're getting good coaching and playing at a good standard regularly.

mickyt wrote:that's a huge IF Portnoy and something that would never happen any time soon.

if Russia where running a muck in those competitions as you say then they would deserve to be included in a Tier 1 competition.

I believe eventually if/when the Tier 2 teams improve to a high enough standard that the 6N's could potentially adapt a promotion/relugation to and from the 6N's

The ifs and maybes are surely the desired result of this proposition. So they should be considered beforehand...

Unlike the alliance going gung-ho into battle, there needs to be a clear exit strategy.

Great idea. The 6N sides could play in the Super15. It might help them develop!

TheGreyGhost wrote:Great idea. The 6N sides could play in the Super15. It might help them develop!

Hadn't experienced many Wums on here. pity...

Portnoy wrote:

mickyt wrote:that's a huge IF Portnoy and something that would never happen any time soon.

if Russia where running a muck in those competitions as you say then they would deserve to be included in a Tier 1 competition.

I believe eventually if/when the Tier 2 teams improve to a high enough standard that the 6N's could potentially adapt a promotion/relugation to and from the 6N's

The ifs and maybes are surely the desired result of this proposition. So they should be considered beforehand...

Unlike the alliance going gung-ho into battle, there needs to be a clear exit strategy.

I think exit strategy would be the key. I would imagine its a set numbers of years agreed in terms of development and work from there.

Russia struggles with the regular rugby season so something else may suit them. The Winters there are fierce. If there were a competition that they could play in, in a milder part of the world, during the worst months it would be better for their domestic season which needs a Winter break. The B& I cup may be an option if the dates suited/could be altered to suit.

If the Russian team took part for a full season that would be terrible for their league. How would this league keep it's popularity going with never a sight of the best players? In the long term working to help this new league to thrive will be better for Russia than gutting it of talent.

Another option would be that the Churchill cup could be expanded/run more as a league to fulfill this purpose.

Having said all this both Romania (in their hay day) and Italy improved the standard of their rugby without doing anything like this.

mickyt wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

mickyt wrote:that's a huge IF Portnoy and something that would never happen any time soon.

if Russia where running a muck in those competitions as you say then they would deserve to be included in a Tier 1 competition.

I believe eventually if/when the Tier 2 teams improve to a high enough standard that the 6N's could potentially adapt a promotion/relugation to and from the 6N's

The ifs and maybes are surely the desired result of this proposition. So they should be considered beforehand...

Unlike the alliance going gung-ho into battle, there needs to be a clear exit strategy.

I think exit strategy would be the key. I would imagine its a set numbers of years agreed in terms of development and work from there.

And so the argument goes full circle. Back to the sticky question of members of the 6Ns self-interest.

Best get that sorted before we go dangling carrots. Otherwise we might regret making another big mistake like inviting Italy in on a no-quibble basis. (Personally I'd have gone for Argentina based in Spain. But what do I know?)

No quibble basis - if you get rid of that then one day may be one of the tier 1 countries would have to drop out. Couldn't have that happen.
And if you think that is impossible then think of the West Indies and Sri Lanka in cricket.