Wales v Italy Match Thread

[Luckless Pedestrian]

First topic message reminder :

Autumn Nations Cup: Fifth-place play-off - Wales v Italy

Venue: Parc y Scarlets, Llanelli Date: Saturday, 5 December Kick-off: 16:45 GMT

Live coverage on S4C and Amazon Prime

WALES

Liam Williams; Josh Adams, George North, Johnny Williams, Louis Rees-Zammit; Callum Sheedy, Kieran Hardy; Nicky Smith, Sam Parry, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), James Botham, Justin Tipuric, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Elliot Dee, Wyn Jones, Leon Brown, Cory Hill, Aaron Wainwright, Gareth Davies, Ioan Lloyd, Jonah Holmes.

ITALY

Jacopo Trulla; Luca Sperandio, Marco Zanon, Carlo Canna, Monty Ioane; Paolo Garbisi, Stephen Varney; Danilo Fischetti, Luca Bigi (capt), Giosuè Zilocch, Marco Lazzaroni, Niccolp Cannone, Maxime Mbanda, Johan Meyer, Braam Steyn.

Replacements: Leonardo Ghiraldini, Simone Ferrari, Pietro Ceccarelli, Cristian Stoian, Michele Lamaro, Guglielmo Palazzani, Tommaso Allan, Federico Mori.

[Guest]

Worst tackle attempt EVER!

[tigertattie]

Well. That’s what you can a Bump to score.

[majesticimperialman]

What a fantastic try.

[mikey_dragon]

Good try by Meyer. Wonder if miaow will be back tomorrow to say he was right all along about LRZ, and then demand Scott Williams and North at 13 / 14.

[RiscaGame]

Lloyd was definitely poor, but you can see why Pivac wasn’t too happy with LRZ’s defence earlier in the season.

[TightHEAD]

Lol that was u12 stuff

[Brendan]

Worry for Wales regardless if they win is the team is older and Pivac seems to see them as the best hope.

Italy for the most part are young so will get better just by getting older

[mikey_dragon]

Worry for Wales regardless if they win is the team is older and Pivac seems to see them as the best hope.

Italy for the most part are young so will get better just by getting older

Anyone you’re referring to in particular?

There’s AWJ and Tips. The former will be phased out, the latter is decent but seems to be kept on because he’s a favourite. The depth at 7 is super. We should be able to phase out JD2 as well.

Do Italy have many 19 year olds in their lineup?

[Guest]

Good finish by Davies. That’s exactly his sort of score.

[JDizzle]

Another lovely try! Been some good ones today. Tipuric and Faletau in particular have been excellent.

[TightHEAD]

Wales will win but they are making it look hard

[No 7&1/2]

I wish england had the scrum halfs of wales.
Faletau has been class today hasn't he.

[majesticimperialman]

Wales needed that try by Davies. Wales now back in front can they stay there?

[Guest]

Wales will win but they are making it look hard

Probably your best and most accurate post ever!

[mikey_dragon]

Just remembered Holmes was on the bench. Why wasn’t he brought on at full back in the first place...

[RiscaGame]

I forgot Holmes was the other backs replacement. Nonsensical to not bring him on for Liam Williams really.

[No 7&1/2]

That's a penalty to wales.

[RiscaGame]

Really poor not to reverse that.

[JDizzle]

Fingers crossed Italy lose on a last minute penalty reversal after one of their players pats a Wales player on the head.

[Gooseberry]

Wales will win but they are making it look hard

Probably your best and most accurate post ever!

They are looking a lot better this half and since back to 15. Really there was only a period coming up to half time and through that card that Italy have made them look bad. Its far from perfect but at least its now clear they are a team of superior players.

[TightHEAD]

Wales will win but they are making it look hard

Probably your best and most accurate post ever!

Would love to be proved wrong.

[Guest]

We butchered the overlap there!

[mikey_dragon]

I forgot Holmes was the other backs replacement. Nonsensical to not bring him on for Liam Williams really.

Very reluctant to bring on Leon Brown too. Does Rowlands have a knock? As Wainwright is at lock and Dee in the back-row...

[majesticimperialman]

AWJ taken off did he pick up an injury or some thing?

Or are Wales so confident they will win, even with put AWJ.

[JDizzle]

Try for North. Had a good game tonight - carried hard. Not learned anything about what everyone knows of his weaknesses, but couldn’t have done much more.

[RiscaGame]

I forgot Holmes was the other backs replacement. Nonsensical to not bring him on for Liam Williams really.

Very reluctant to bring on Leon Brown too. Does Rowlands have a knock? As Wainwright is at lock and Dee in the back-row...

Must have.

I think we could probably do with Brown’s carrying here. I would’ve brought him on sooner than just now.

[Gooseberry]

Whos the welsh breakdown coach?

[JDizzle]

That seems a dangerous tackle? Flinging someone so they land with the head whipping back?

[mikey_dragon]

I’ve always liked North at 13, we get to involve him in the game more and he’s a good attacker. Now I’m going to spend the next few weeks telling everyone how I’ve always been right.....

[Guest]

Lovely delayed pass from Sheedy!

[Gooseberry]

Great to see Sheedy taking the bang and smiling back onto the pitch. No whinging, just honest contest. As a small playmaker hes going to have to get used to taking some big hits, looks like he has the attitude right.

Straight back in the game delayed pass sets up the try. Good lad.


...and calm for the kick.

[RiscaGame]

Lovely delayed pass from Sheedy!

So good.

[JDizzle]

Great composure from Sheedy. Done himself no harm today - kicked well off the tee too.

[majesticimperialman]

Good try by tipuric.

Wales win but Italy dd give them a game to fight for.

[Guest]

They definitely gave us a game, and at one point I was thinking ‘uh oh’, but, as Gooseberry (I think) pointed out, Italy's purple patch was when its was 15 v 14 men.  As soon as we got Back to 15 v 15 Wales pulled away.

[Gooseberry]

Solid win, some of the play should cheer the welsh camp up and the return to form of a couple of the big names. Bench strength seemed to play a part for the last 20 , plus Italy playing themselves into trouble but its pretty clear which is the better side when Wales stop infringing at the breakdown.

[Guest]

Tipuric and Faletau really stood out but I didn’t see much of their back row partner Botham.  Was he anonymous or just doing the unseen stuff well?  Shame the wingers didn’t get the ball more.  Josh Adams had such a good season or two previously but we’re not playing the sort of rugby to get them into the game.

[JDizzle]

Tipuric and Faletau really stood out but I didn’t see much of their back row partner Botham.  Was he anonymous or just doing the unseen stuff well?  Shame the wingers didn’t get the ball more.  Josh Adams had such a good season or two previously but we’re not playing the sort of rugby to get them into the game.

I didn’t see much all Autumn from Botham and SLH to suggest they are near challenging a fully fit Navidi and Moriarty (or even Wainwright) for a spot in the back row.

[Heaf]

It was never in doubt but at least Italy made a game of it.

[mikey_dragon]

Tipuric and Faletau really stood out but I didn’t see much of their back row partner Botham.  Was he anonymous or just doing the unseen stuff well?  Shame the wingers didn’t get the ball more.  Josh Adams had such a good season or two previously but we’re not playing the sort of rugby to get them into the game.

Probably a bit too soon for Botham but I think he’s done well considering. I’d like to see more of Griffiths and Young. I think Navidi and Jenkins will be back in if available.

[Guest]

Tipuric and Faletau really stood out but I didn’t see much of their back row partner Botham.  Was he anonymous or just doing the unseen stuff well?  Shame the wingers didn’t get the ball more.  Josh Adams had such a good season or two previously but we’re not playing the sort of rugby to get them into the game.

Probably a bit too soon for Botham but I think he’s done well considering. I’d like to see more of Griffiths and Young. I think Navidi and Jenkins will be back in if available.

Yes, agreed.  I know people will call it Dragons tinted glasses.  But Griffiths is so dynamic and high tempo that I really think it would suit Pivac’s style of rugby.

[mikey_dragon]

Tipuric and Faletau really stood out but I didn’t see much of their back row partner Botham.  Was he anonymous or just doing the unseen stuff well?  Shame the wingers didn’t get the ball more.  Josh Adams had such a good season or two previously but we’re not playing the sort of rugby to get them into the game.

Probably a bit too soon for Botham but I think he’s done well considering. I’d like to see more of Griffiths and Young. I think Navidi and Jenkins will be back in if available.

Yes, agreed.  I know people will call it Dragons tinted glasses.  But Griffiths is so dynamic and high tempo that I really think it would suit Pivac’s style of rugby.

Agree. I think most would want Griffiths in their lineup, it’s a shame about his injury record but he’s doing well so far. It does amaze me how certain people write him off though and claim he’s “too small”. Makes you wonder if they’re watching someone else.

[Guest]

I sometimes forget about Ellis Jenkins And Navidi.  Our back row depth is great when all fit.  Jenkins, Navidi, Faletau, Tips, Wainwright, Moriarty, Griffiths, Young.  The likes of James Davies, Botham and Shane Lewis Hughes are going to have a real struggle to get game time if/when the others are fit.  I’m probbaly missing a few from that list too.

[mikey_dragon]

I don’t rate James Davies. I think Josh MacLeod, Will Boyd and Taine Basham have bright futures. Jac Morgan also looks pretty good.

[Guest]

Yes agreed.  I was a fan of James Davies when he first burst on the scene, but I think he flattered to deceive in his ability to play a loose all action 7s style of rugby as a flanker.  Like Tips in a way, but not as good!  But he has not kicked on and in many areas has regressed.

[RiscaGame]

Griffiths would be first choice probably, if he would stay fit. He’s blockbuster. I would probably say if that happened, maybe Tipuric would miss out as Navidi is always international class when he plays and Faletau is world class when he gets a run of games. I feel Tipuric can still not always influence a game, but that’s just me. What Tipuric has over any normal Welsh backrow option is durability.

[majesticimperialman]

Any mews on AWJ injury, will he be out for along time or not?

[mikey_dragon]

I’ve always said Griffiths is a special sort of player. He’s doing well on the injury front so far. If he harbours aspirations of an international career, he can forget it with Pivac in charge.
Whilst I might still have Tipuric in the squad he would miss out on match days for me too. I don’t believe he offers enough of a breakdown threat which is what a flanker is for. I couldn’t quite figure out why he never looked good coming off the bench. At least the others we’ve mentioned are also good individual players. Nice to see some folk have woken up to what Navidi actually does for Wales, he’s been doing it for Cardiff since a young age. When he’s playing, Tipuric looks a lot better than he actually is. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, and expect at least one poster to have an absolute breakdown over it, but the proof is out there. I’m happy to continue on until a better coach comes in and makes the big call.

[No9]

A flattering win in the end... what can you say. Pivac's choice of subs was astounding (and not for a good reason).

When Liam Williams has to go off, why use Ioan Lloyd (a fly half) as 15 when you have Jonah Holmes (a winger and full back) on the bench.

It was like watching "Mike Bassett: England Manager"... only I found that funny.

[Guest]

Ioan Lloyd players more at 15 than he does at 10 for his club. He also plays at 15 for a better club than Jonah Holmes. He's also in need of minutes and exposure where Holmes probably isn't. He gained more than Holmes would have. This was never a 'must win game'. Wales haven't had one of those in 12 months.

I'm astounded at the lack of consistency among Welsh fans. Some people just want to complain and use rugby as some kind of vehicle for something else. Gatland got stick for being too boring. Pivac comes in and tries to find a way to play rugby that better suits Wales' abilities - namely natural talent and better footballing skills than the rest of the NH bar maybe France - and fans now want Shaun Edwards back. Embarrassing.

Good win. Wales went flat after racing in to the lead. The worrying aspect is that Wales are becoming what I said they might: a team that loses to bigger/better teams but looks great against worse teams. Gatland's sides looked rubbish against inferior opposition but punched above their weight v better and bigger opposition. Pivac's rugby is 'let talent express itself'. Hence Faletau and Tipuric dominating the game. Only Liam Williams is needed to complete the trio of most talented Welsh players. Gatland's rugby was 'minimise individual weaknesses through accuracy' and hope that you shut down the talent of the opposition while leaving just enough space for your own talent to flourish, i.e. Shane, North.

If we're back to being the sum of our parts, we need to work on improving the parts. That's not Pivac's fault. That's everything below him. Sadly I think he's on a hiding to nothing and the sheer lack of physicality in Wales compared to Ireland let alone England means the slim benefit we have when it comes to natural talent of certain players is wiped out because we're just going to be playing on the back foot.

I also think Pivac needs to get more real about the transitional and 'stitchy' bits of rugby. France are still useless at them. Without a player like Biggar scrapping away at those moments, or leading Wales from transition to transition, the gameplan as a whole needs to improve to focus more on not having a soft underbelly when it comes to the 'nitty gritty'. It's what lets teams like Fiji down and there's no way Wales have anything close to the flair, talent, and physicality of Fiji - I have little doubt Fiji would have blown Wales away had we played each other.

Let's hope the regions pick things up over the next 2 months. The Blues, the Dragons, and the Ospreys have been letting the Scarlets down for too long. One region cannot carry Wales.

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