PGATour Running Commentary - Aug 2020

First topic message reminder :

GPB

Either that or the players are just really good.

McLaren wrote:Thing is super it doesn't really matter what element got us to the current distance position, but you can come up with a ball that takes x% of a players distance away to combat it.

You could say that Mac, but you'd still have big hitters, medium hitters and shorter hitters. It wouldn't level the playing field at all.
You'll just make the shorter hitters even shorter. There isn't a ball which can make shorter hitters longer and longer hitters shorter which is the sort of thing you would need.

I prefer Poulter's idea of having a minimum loft (eg 9 deg) and a lower maximum length of the driver (eg 45 inches), or do you wind back driver technology for how hot the face is?

super_realist wrote:Really interesting review from Rick  Shiels (who has tour level swing speeds) on the difference in 20 years of the pro v.
Conclusion of the testing of wedge, 7 iron and driver reveal almost zero difference in distance between the two balls.

Is there any point in winding back a ball when there have been such little gains in 20 years? I've always said gains are being made in club technology, better shafts and massive increases in swing speed.

It's not the distance per se. It's the spin separation. If you can simply tw@t a driver knowing sidespin isn't a real problem, it's a much easier game. Make the ball spin more off the driver and other longer clubs.

Also, not sure it's worth comparing iterations of ProV1 balls. Test a ProV1 vs, say, a Titleist Tour Balata.

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:Really interesting review from Rick  Shiels (who has tour level swing speeds) on the difference in 20 years of the pro v.
Conclusion of the testing of wedge, 7 iron and driver reveal almost zero difference in distance between the two balls.

Is there any point in winding back a ball when there have been such little gains in 20 years? I've always said gains are being made in club technology, better shafts and massive increases in swing speed.

It's not the distance per se. It's the spin separation. If you can simply tw@t a driver knowing sidespin isn't a real problem, it's a much easier game. Make the ball spin more off the driver and other longer clubs.

Also, not sure it's worth comparing iterations of ProV1 balls. Test a ProV1 vs, say, a Titleist Tour Balata.

The tour balata issue was not side spin either it was incredible amounts of backspin way in excess of a Pro V. I used to get hilarious amount of backspin with those balls.
Side spin has largely been negated with club face technology

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:Really interesting review from Rick  Shiels (who has tour level swing speeds) on the difference in 20 years of the pro v.
Conclusion of the testing of wedge, 7 iron and driver reveal almost zero difference in distance between the two balls.

Is there any point in winding back a ball when there have been such little gains in 20 years? I've always said gains are being made in club technology, better shafts and massive increases in swing speed.

It's not the distance per se. It's the spin separation. If you can simply tw@t a driver knowing sidespin isn't a real problem, it's a much easier game. Make the ball spin more off the driver and other longer clubs.

Also, not sure it's worth comparing iterations of ProV1 balls. Test a ProV1 vs, say, a Titleist Tour Balata.

The tour balata issue was not side spin either it was incredible amounts of backspin way in excess of a Pro V. I used to get hilarious amount of backspin with those balls.
Side spin has largely been  negated with club face technology

I wasn't talking about backspin. Club face tech may make some difference to side spin, but get the clubface-to-path at impact wrong using a ~9° driver and balata/wound balls and you'll find yourself hitting huge hooks or slices.

I agree that, perhaps, Poulter's suggestions might be an easier fix, needing less changes to manufacturers processes. Truth is, the rule makers have dropped the ball on this issue. Plus ça change.

I know Sean O'Hair is one of Shotrock's favorites, but I don't understand why he keeps getting invites to the QBE Shootout, formerly known as Shark Shootout,

Yes, the Shootout is an irrelevant silly season event. But any fascination with the Sean O'Hair story was played out years ago. He has virtually no tour status, his OWGR Ranking is in the 700's. But the QBE Shootout seems to be O'Hair's personal annuity. I would think there is a more relevant player (that wants to play).

He won it in 2018. I know it is silly season as you say, but does he get an "exemption" for winning it previously? is there any criteria?

I don't think there is a past champ exemption for the Shootout.

Prince Dracula has projected the Year End Top 100 rankings

Spoiler:

Notable drops from Year end 2019 to Year End 2020

Woods from #6 to #41
Rose from #8 to #35
Molinari from #18 to somewhere outside the Top 100
Fowler from #23 to #53
Stenson from #26 to #65
Spieth from #44 to #82

There haven't been many players who have had the hype of Fowler and achieved so little.

Super

Again, not actually following the sport you are talking about means you don't really understand the situation. Fowler was never really hyped as a multiple major winner or world no.1 but rather as something new and fresh. He had a different style, and the marketing types jumped on that.

Of course when he was playing well (his major runner up year for example) there was general goodwill towards the idea it would be cool if he won a major but Fowler was hyped for different reasons to JT, Spieth, Wolff, Morikawa, Cantlay etc.  

Unfortunately it turned out he is a little dull and not really a top, top player. But don't mistake hype around how he could be marketed for people who really know the game thinking he was the next big thing. I don't think those who follow the tour closely would be too surprised by his current record of 5 PGAT wins, including a The Players^:registered:.

I didnt say he was hyped as a multiple major winner, just that he was hyped.
He has won a few tournaments but when you are better known for laughable facial hair, stupid shoes and a rotten dress sense it's fair to say you haven't lived up to your hype.

GPB wrote:I don't think there is a past champ exemption for the Shootout.

Prince Dracula has projected the Year End Top 100 rankings

Spoiler:

Notable drops from Year end 2019 to Year End 2020

Woods from #6 to #41
Rose from #8 to #35
Molinari from #18 to somewhere outside the Top 100
Fowler from #23 to #53
Stenson from #26 to #65
Spieth from #44 to #82

Am I right in thinking Fowler if he doesn't break back into the top 50, or win a tour event will miss the Masters in the spring?
Should imagine he has a few of his sponsors on his back at the moment with his drop in form.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Am I right in thinking Fowler if he doesn't break back into the top 50, or win a tour event will miss the Masters in the spring?
Should imagine he has a few of his sponsors on his back at the moment with his drop in form.

Correct. He has to win a "full point" PGA Tour event - i.e. not an opposite field event to a Major or WGC. Or he needs to be in the top 50 in a week or so before the Masters. (Don't know the exact date.) The others in that list have major winning exemptions if not in the top 50.

Just realised that fat Bob also failed to get into the top 20 of the R2D. Which would have got him into the WGC Mexico. So he missed out on not just top 50 perks at the weekend.

Feels like he needs to make that jump into the top 50 soon.

The other thing is, and I don't know if it will affect anyone, is that being in the top 50 at the end of the year is not now. We are only in week 50. So if any player loses points due to what they call "attrition" or their divisor changes or whatever, that could change things. I am not technical enough to know. Follow @VC606 (Prince Drac) on Twitter.

McLaren wrote:Just realised that fat Bob also failed to get into the top 20 of the R2D. Which would have got him into the WGC Mexico. So he missed out on not just top 50 perks at the weekend.

Feels like he needs to make that jump into the top 50 soon.

Wasn't there something about Fat Bob bottling Mexico last year or was that some other invite he got and turned it down?

I'm never wrong wrote:The other thing is, and I don't know if it will affect anyone, is that being in the top 50 at the end of the year is not now. We are only in week 50. So if any player loses points due to what they call "attrition" or their divisor changes or whatever, that could change things. I am not technical enough to know. Follow @VC606 (Prince Drac) on Twitter.

Those rankings (courtesy of PD) are projected to the end of the year. There are no OWGR events for the rest of the year that would impact the Top 100. The PGA Latino Americas tour has an event in Puerto Rico this week and Pro Golf Tour of India has event this week, I doubt if there are any events next week (Christmas week) and very unlikely if there were, that any potential Top 100 players would play.,

Who's dead now

MacIntyre got (and accepted) an exemption into the PGATour Reno Tahoe event via his Top 10 in the Open Championship in 2019.

And then WDed a day or two later.

Mac..."Fat Bob"? Et Tu? Does it make you feel superior by calling golfers with pejorative nicknames. Are you insecure as well?

GPB wrote:MacIntyre got (and accepted) an exemption into the PGATour Reno Tahoe event via his Top 10 in the Open Championship in 2019.

And then WDed a day or two later.

Mac..."Fat Bob"?  Et Tu?  Does it make you feel superior by calling golfers with pejorative nicknames.  Are you insecure as well?

Sad, isn't it?

GPB wrote:MacIntyre got (and accepted) an exemption into the PGATour Reno Tahoe event via his Top 10 in the Open Championship in 2019.

And then WDed a day or two later.

Mac..."Fat Bob"?  Et Tu?  Does it make you feel superior by calling golfers with pejorative nicknames.  Are you insecure as well?

I always find it funny when people like you try and apply some sort of amateur psychology to something they actually have no idea about.
This isn't the Oxford Union, no one is required to call anyone by their given names.
If you feel so strongly about names and imply so much that people ought to be called by their actual name, stop hiding behind a pseudonym.

I always find it funny that "adults" resort to "Mean Girl" adolescent mentality hiding behind the anonymity of an internet forum.

And I agree that no one is required to call anyone by their given names. It just the "adult" thing to do.

Then don't respond then. No one requires your tuppence worth so if it "offends" you so much keep quiet.

As a matter of fact the term "Fat Bob" is endemic in Scottish culture and refers to a character in a comic strip that every Scottish person knows because every group has its own "Fat Bob". If anything in relation to Bob Macintyre it's more akin to a term of endearment than an insult, but then of course you will know all about that won't you because you thoroughly researched before diving in feet first didn't you?

It's also ironic you don't like name calling, but you're perfectly fine with golfers giving themselves their own ridiculous names. Hardly very "adult" by your standards to call yourself "Webb", "Boo" or "Tiger" is it?

So Scottish Customs and Pop Culture are OK, but American Customs and Pop Culture must be mocked.

Gotcha.

GPB

Super is partly correct. Calling someone fat bob isn't a major insult, but I doubt they are thoroughly happy with the moniker.


I guess what we might ask is whether getting on the sort of fitness regime a lot of the top younger players do these days would help Bob in his pursuit of moving up the rankings?

I always kind of saw myself as wee Eck...until I went to secondary school and was in the same class as a real wee Eck (his name was Alec mine wasn't).

Something I never quite worked out when I was younger, was Soapy called Soapy because he was a slippy character or because he was a soap dodging minger?

Would this be a bad time to mention that Jack's granddaughter just got married to Todger Strunk?


https://twitter.com/jacknicklaus/status/1338628170694750214

Could have been worse, could have been Todger Shrunk!

Where's Super when you need him?

I take you Todger, to have and to hold...

I heard he should be a real d!ck though. Maybe their son will be called Todger Jr.?

Interesting report on the fate and history of the GC Tiger tracker twitter account.

https://www.theringer.com/2020/12/16/22177701/tiger-woods-tracker-twitter-golf-channel-the-masters

Hey all... been a while.

Pretty amazing the PGAT and ET got in as many events as they did this year. Kudo's for both of them being able to hold it together as much as they did.

I look forward to this PGAT/ET alliance thing. A lot of Europeans seem to be fearful of it, but IMO by the PGAT investing in the ET Productions, it's in PGAT's interest for the ET to be as strong as they can help make it. And that goes beyond any co-sanctioning that appears to be part of the alliance.

Anyway... best wishes to all.. and happy holidays to you all...

robo

I agree that the PGAT having an incentive for the ET to be as strong as possible is a good thing but so far we don't know any of the details of the strategic alliance.

Charlie Woods has a pretty sweet swing.

We got nine months of qualifying left........but these are the top 12 Americans and the Top 12 Europeans in the OWGR rankings.

https://twitter.com/GolfMonthly/status/1339661734987132929

Not trying to be a dick this time GPB, but that's a really stupid tweet because neither team pick their team on the basis of the OWGR, you might as well draw up a list based on Driving distance or number of putts per round as it would mean about as much.
Furthermore it doesn't take into account captains picks or the inevitable pick of perennial Ryder Cup loser and giver of free points to Europe, Botox Woods.

Super

You are aware that there is a European and world points list for the ET team?

From princedrac, here are the current rankings. You can see the crossover. And with the European list filled with double dippers/world tour (whatever you want to call them guys) the selection process favor's the second tier double dippers rather than pure ET players.

McLaren wrote:Super

You are aware that there is a European and world points list for the ET team?

From princedrac, here are the current rankings. You can see the crossover. And with the European list filled with double dippers/world tour (whatever you want to call them guys) the selection process favor's the second tier double dippers rather than pure ET players.

Yes, but it's not based on the standings of the OWGR. It's over a 9 month period and as such someone not even in the top 100 at the moment could make the team in the next nine months.

McLaren wrote:Super

You are aware that there is a European and world points list for the ET team?

From princedrac, here are the current rankings. You can see the crossover. And with the European list filled with double dippers/world tour (whatever you want to call them guys) the selection process favor's the second tier double dippers rather than pure ET players.

Yes, but it's (GPB's cited tweet) not based on the standings of the OWGR. It's over a limited  period and as such someone not even in the top 100 at the moment could make the team in the next nine months.

Ryder Cup points are not calculated the same as OWGR points.
Amusing if it is accurate that Fat Shane will miss out again and would require a pick. Wouldnt have him in anyway as you may need to play more golf than his unsightly body would permit.

Funny you ignored the European Tours embracing of Saudi Arabia, China, Qatar exltc but expect them to turn down either of Trumps courses.

Super

We have had the Saudi debate on here already. It will come as no shock to you that I argued the ET should stay clear of it.

McLaren wrote:Super

We have had the Saudi debate on here already. It will come as no shock to you that I argued the ET should stay clear of it.

Yes, but you expect them to dump Trump courses, but why on earth would they (or should they) when they support tournaments in countries which are far worse than Trump ever has been.
If you're propping up a tournament in Saudi Arabia, it's hardly them controversial to hold a tournament at Turnberry is it?

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:Super

We have had the Saudi debate on here already. It will come as no shock to you that I argued the ET should stay clear of it.

Yes, but you expect them to dump Trump courses, but why on earth would they (or should they) when they support tournaments in countries which are far worse than Trump ever has been.
If you're propping up a tournament in Saudi Arabia, it's hardly them controversial to hold a tournament at Turnberry is it?

They shouldn't be at Trump or Saudi venues and the sooner they realise that, the better.

I tend to agree but the point is that if you have Saudi and Qatar on your list, then you can't very well claim that you are omitting Trump course because of who owns them. Even Lewis Hamilton, Prince Harry  or Benedict Cumberbatch could see that was hypocritical.

IMO, both the Euro and American Ryder Cup teams are Highly correlated with the OWGR Rankings,

Let me clarify....the teams are HIGHLY correlated....and NOT PERFECTLY Correlated.

25% of the American team are picks.

super_realist wrote:25% of the  American team are picks.

Typo?

super_realist wrote:25% of the  American team are picks.

Actually that is WRONG.  50% (Six (6) of the 12) of the 2021 Team will be Picks and 33% of the 2018 were Picks  (Four (4) of the 12)

CITATIONS

https://www.rydercup.com/news-media/how-players-will-qualify-for-the-2020-us-ryder-cup-team

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Ryder_Cup

But, even if true, it doesn't contradict my statement that the Ryder Cup teams are HIGHLY Correlated with the OWGR Rankings.

Per OWGR rankings of 9/23/2018

Thorbjorn Olesen was the only member of the 2018 European Ryder Cup team that was not among the highest 12 ranked Europeans.  Rafa Cabrera Bello was ranked ahead of Olesen.

Phil Mickelson was the only member of the 2018  American Ryder Cup team that was not among the highest 12 ranked Americans.  Xander Schauffele & Patrick Cantlay were ranked ahead of Mickelson and not on the American RC Tream.

11 out of 12 on both teams. ?  That fits my (and IMO most reasonable people's) definition of "Highly" Correlated.

Interestingly, Olesen and Mickelson only played two sessions each. They were "riding the Pine" on three of the first four sessions,

super_realist wrote:I tend to agree but the point is that if you have Saudi and Qatar on your list, then you can't very well claim that you are omitting Trump course because of who owns them. Even Lewis Hamilton, Prince Harry  or Benedict Cumberbatch could see that was hypocritical.

No, but two wrongs don't make a right. Do they?

Remember last summer when the European Golf Press was complaining about the OWGR giving recognition to the US PGA Tour before the European had a chance to restart.

I believe there was some complaints on this board.

Well it is Year End, so lets review what happened. The Europe "caught up" with two events played in the last month while the PGATour had off weeks. They played a few weeks ago, while America celebrated Thanksgiving, and it also played last week.

And nearly European Tournament was subsidized. Not counting the co-santioned WGC FEDEX, the only events that did not get subsidies were the Handa UK Championship, Scottish Open and the RTD event last week.

LadyPutt

If spectacular vistas and animals are what you want in a golf course, I hope you are watching the Sentry Tournament of Champions on the PGATour this week.

Huge elevation changes, breaching humpback whales, dolphin pods

The Plantation Course at Kapalua is definite eye-candy.