Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

First topic message reminder :



If the Pro 16 wants to compete with the likes of the other top leagues in Europe and further abroad, they need to part ways with Premier Sports. The current Premier Sports contract with the Pro 14 finishes at the end of this season it still remains to be seen if this will be renewed or another broadcaster will takeover the rights.

Many fans have voiced their dislike of the online platform which after several seasons appears to be stable via Sky or Virgin sports packages but less so as an outright online viewing package. Coupled with annoying multiple login requirements to swap from devices and random lost connection error codes before, during and even when trying to watch on demand matches, it would be a real shame to see the new Pro 16 format begin in this manner.

Do you feel the upcoming Pro 16 competition would be a good addition to BT Sports or Sky Sports or even one of the streaming platforms like Amazon Prime?

Would it be better for a return to the domestic networks in a similar format as before?

Could CVC play a part in this decision with their recent investment in the Pro 14 league and 6N?

Irish Londoner wrote:

Oakdene wrote: I think for me its the issues with away travel & the costs associated with attending matches against the non Welsh sides. Bath, Bristol & the like are easily accessible & probably do-able up & down in a day whereas any of the away matches in the Pro 14 have flights/ferry costs then hotels etc.

So you can get to Bath and Bristol, are you prepared to go to Newcastle, Exeter, Sale, Leicester, Northampton,Coventry or London? The Premiership covers the whole of England.

Well you do not have to catch a boat or a plane to get to those destinations.

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Secondly, Connacht would probably at the same level as Dragons, Munster would probably be the same as the other Welsh regions, Leinster and Ulster would probably see the worst of it, as they attract crowds big enough to sustain a bigger budget.

By way of correction the Ulster salary bill is below Munsters and below the English Premiership cap

No, it's not. That's the part of the salary that is recharged from Ulster.

I sorry but the Ulster total salary bill really is below both Munster and the English Salary cap.
Now it may well be that some English teams do not reach the English salary cap ceiling and as a consequence do not pay as much in salaries as Ulster but that is a different point.

There seems to be a misunderstanding on how the Provinces budget their costs.
They get income from the IRFU, they get income  from other sources which they retain in the case of Leinster and Munster that includes private backers, in the case of Ulster it does not.
I am thinking here of shirt sales, ticket sales, province driven promotions.
Of the money they received from the IRFU some must be spent to the benefit of the wider game in the provinces - schools, club game, Womens game etc.
The amount provinces can spend on salaries has a predetermined ceiling - reviewed each year.
They must stick to that budget - they are not free to sign players without adhering to the IRFU budget.
This can be supplemented by an occasional additional player contract if the IRFU determine it would benefit the wider Irish game - such circumstances are becoming rarer and rarer.
There are no such supplemented contracts at Ulster for 2021/22 - I have no idea about the other provinces but I suspect not.
This can also be supplemented by private investors - as stated this is the case at Leinster and Munster but not at the other two provinces.
This is also supplemented by central contracts - clearly this is a big boost to Leinster, at Ulster we only have two CCs - Henderson and Stockdale.

In an attempt to bring the discussion around to a productive discussion can I qask where posters thing the ceiling should be pitched.

Top 14 cap
Leinster budget
English Premiership cap
Ulster budget
Welsh budget

Genuinely curious as to what peoples thinking is on this

Whatever cap you decide on will be out of reach for SA teams, our cap is R60 mil, which is around 3.5 mil Euro.

Can’t see it happening

Old Man wrote:Whatever cap you decide on will be out of reach for SA teams, our cap is R60 mil, which is around 3.5 mil Euro.

Can’t see it happening

There's no excuse for Welsh teams so.

We don’t need excuses, we need money

If there was a cap I think there should have the cap about 10% higher then the English just to enforce that we can pay just as well

Without getting into to much of a debate do we know what Zebre and Benetton are on.

And in other news

PREMIER SPORTS SECURES UK AND IRELAND TV RIGHTS FOR FRENCH RUGBY’S TOP 14
UK sports broadcaster expands its rugby coverage with highly-prized top flight French rugby
UK broadcaster Premier Sports has announced that it has secured UK and Ireland TV rights for French Rugby’s top flight competition - the TOP 14 - for two years to include the finale of this season’s 2020/2021 tournament.

Old Man wrote:Whatever cap you decide on will be out of reach for SA teams, our cap is R60 mil, which is around 3.5 mil Euro.

Can’t see it happening

I find that figure interesting because of the Coetzee situation.

It is my understanding that he was on around £400,000 at Ulster.
He was the highest paid player.
With the substantial cutbacks, in salary due to Covid, Ulster could not commit to a similar figure for any future renewal.
Bulls were prepared to pay that sum, maybe higher.
That means that Bulls are paying 11 to 12% of their total salary bill to one player - is that true ?

By way of comparison Henderson, who is Ulsters highest paid player, is on about 5% of the total salary bill for 21/22

Pot Hale wrote:As a by the by, Irish TV company, Premier Sports, have just announced they have won the UK and Ireland rights for Top14 matches for the next 2-3 seasons.  They will start showing the playoffs and final for this season and have the next two full seasons.  

Premier Sports now will have a broadcast licence in Ireland to show PRO16 from next season, and will likely deliver it through one of the existing platforms - Sky, Now Tv, etc.

To return to the title of the thread, should PRO16 be getting rid of Premier Sports?

Old Man wrote:Whatever cap you decide on will be out of reach for SA teams, our cap is R60 mil, which is around 3.5 mil Euro.

Can’t see it happening

You will end up getting more I reckon.

The obvious aim for SA was to tap into the cash cow that is the 6N. This is why you are now in the our league. As soon as SA are in the 7N the the SA rugby union will have more money to spend on their franchises.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Old Man wrote:Whatever cap you decide on will be out of reach for SA teams, our cap is R60 mil, which is around 3.5 mil Euro.

Can’t see it happening

I find that figure interesting because of the Coetzee situation.

It is my understanding that he was on around £400,000 at Ulster.
He was the highest paid player.
With the substantial cutbacks, in salary due to Covid, Ulster could not commit to a similar figure for any future renewal.
Bulls were prepared to pay that sum, maybe higher.
That means that Bulls are paying 11 to 12% of their total salary bill to one player - is that true ?

By way of comparison Henderson, who is Ulsters highest paid player, is on about 5% of the total salary bill for 21/22

From what I understand is each Franchise can contract 45 players with that R60 million. Historically the Franchises had three tiers of salaries. There are questions asked as to whether the Bulls are “pulling a Saracens” , but nothing concrete at this stage. I do know that SARU contracts around 20 Boks only, and the salary does not include what SARU pays them.

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:Whatever cap you decide on will be out of reach for SA teams, our cap is R60 mil, which is around 3.5 mil Euro.

Can’t see it happening

You will end up getting more I reckon.

The obvious aim for SA was to tap into the cash cow that is the 6N. This is why you are now in the our league. As soon as SA are in the 7N the the SA rugby union will have more money to spend on their franchises.

Theoretically yes.

Old Man wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:Whatever cap you decide on will be out of reach for SA teams, our cap is R60 mil, which is around 3.5 mil Euro.

Can’t see it happening

You will end up getting more I reckon.

The obvious aim for SA was to tap into the cash cow that is the 6N. This is why you are now in the our league. As soon as SA are in the 7N the the SA rugby union will have more money to spend on their franchises.

Theoretically yes.

Adding to that, you have teams that people can connect to in SA, in Wales we have 4 teams jumbled together and we are expected to support them with all our hwyl and brwdfrydedd.

As ever the PRO16 threads go round in circles so regardless of who broadcasts it: So:
what do the Welsh fans want to happen
what part of what they want to happen is in the gift of the WRU to do
what part can the PRO16 do to help
what parts are "this would be the best solution but is either a very long way off or is blue sky thinking".

We'll take two things as read for the purposes of this:
1 - Neither the SRU or the IRFU are going to change their ownership, funding and business models because some Welsh fans don't like them.
2 - The English clubs are not going to buy into the Welsh clubs joining the Premiership or a wider B & I League unless CVC make it happen.
So wither Welsh club rugby?

And prize for most passive aggressive post of the days goes to........ Irish Londoner! Congrats! Treat yourself to a Horlicks

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

Irish Londoner wrote:
what do the Welsh fans want to happen

As with most things in life, there is not one Welsh view. It would be like asking what government and society 'the English' would like. So expect many different answers.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

The finalshould be hosted by the team heading the log at end of season

Old Man wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

The finalshould be hosted by the team heading the log at end of season

It used to be that, but when it looked as though an Irish team were not going top top the pile they changed it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: I had written that I'd like you to at least acknowledge I hadn't made anything up as you accused me of

Where have I accused you of this ?

Please explain.

'But how you have come to that conclusion from what he has said is beggars belief.

You really do make your own stuff up on here to suit your agenda, only you and God knows how you have come to this.'

So as I said you accused me of making something up that Phil actually said. I've provided his quote subsequently.

I know you'll want to set the record straight so just reminding you again LD that you were mistaken.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

Lets unpick that

1. The reason we often get referees from the away side is simple - Scotland and Italy simple have not produced more than a small handful of professional referees in the leagues existence
So in a league where we have 8 of the 12 teams from Wales or Ireland there was no choice but to have a referee from one of those two countries when their teams play each other.
This was not the leagues fault we simple need other countries to contribute more qualified referees. SA hopefully will make this easier
2 - Premier Sports doubled the income to the league that is why they got it. Without that we would have fallen even further behind the English, let alone the French.
Also they have just landed the Top 14 so not so marginal and they certainly are into rugby in a much bigger way than Sky who, post Lions, are a very marginal channel, at least as far as Rugby is concerned.
3 - There were a number of years where the location of the final was out for tender. No Welsh ground bid for those finals. It is very hard to allocate a final to somewhere that doesn't want it

geoff999rugby wrote:1. The reason we often get referees from the away side is simple - Scotland and Italy simple have not produced more than a small handful of professional referees in the leagues existence
So in a league where we have 8 of the 12 teams from Wales or Ireland there was no choice but to have a referee from one of those two countries when their teams play each other.
This was not the leagues fault we simple need other countries to contribute more qualified referees. SA hopefully will make this easier

I am not blaming anybody, you asked what we would like, so I told you. Also, if certain unions are pulling their weight then they should be made to.

geoff999rugby wrote:2 - Premier Sports doubled the income to the league that is why they got it. Without that we would have fallen even further behind the English, let alone the French.
Also they have just landed the Top 14 so not so marginal and they certainly are into rugby in a much bigger way than Sky who, post Lions, are a very marginal channel, at least as far as Rugby is concerned.

Short termism. It was indeed a money grab, but the league did not take into account the damage it would do by putting it on that channel outside of Ireland, did the Irish fanbase have to change their subscription or pay more than they already were to watch the Pro14 ?

geoff999rugby wrote:3 - There were a number of years where the location of the final was out for tender. No Welsh ground bid for those finals. It is very hard to allocate a final to somewhere that doesn't want it

If I remember correct, it more of a fact that Wales would never get it, as their stadiums did not meet the criteria.

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

Lets unpick that

1. The reason we often get referees from the away side is simple - Scotland and Italy simple have not produced more than a small handful of professional referees in the leagues existence
   So in a league where we have 8 of the 12 teams from Wales or Ireland there was no choice but to have a referee from one of those two countries when their teams play each other.
   This was not the leagues fault we simple need other countries to contribute more qualified referees. SA hopefully will make this easier
2 - Premier Sports doubled the income to the league that is why they got it. Without that we would have fallen even further behind the English, let alone the French.
    Also they have just landed the Top 14 so not so marginal and they certainly are into rugby in a much bigger way than Sky who, post Lions, are a very marginal channel, at least as far as Rugby is concerned.
3 - There were a number of years where the location of the final was out for tender. No Welsh ground bid for those finals. It is very hard to allocate a final to somewhere that doesn't want it

And another thing, you asked what we would like, so why do you want to unpick it ? If you do not like my answers, do not ask the question.

DON’T UNPICK MY NONSENSE, JUST LET ME SPOUT OFF AS I WISH EVEN IF ITS ALL COMPLETE BULL

Ok I'm just going to have to assume you were lying for attention then LD. Shame to see.

You try to make out you are so reasonable and even handed LD but you twist the knife as much as anyone.
I was just explaining the reasons for the situations you describe.

You are wrong on Point 3 both Swansea and the Millenium Stadium met the criteria - no bids regarding those two stadiums were made.

You continue to end your posts with an pathetic

I really am done with this place not least because your posts are an exercise in inane tedium.
Carry on as you are and you will end up talking to yourself - congratulations
I'll check in for a couple of days to respond to any half arsed response

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

I agree about the officials. There should be more effort put in to training up more referees from Scotland and Italy and also given that we are a small set of islands could there be some crossover between the PRO16 and the English Premiership. I personally don't think that referees are "homers" but it would be a good idea to have neutral ones for avoidance of doubt. The flipside being that teams would have to get used to having new referees and not killing them early in their careers if they make the odd honest mistake.

The TV thing is very simple - the games go to whoever has most money as the clubs all need the income. In an ideal world I'd have liked a joint bid between the BBC and RTE to show games on terrestrial channels but I doubt if they could raise the income. It should also be noted that almost all English and European club rugby is behind a paywall as well.

Again agree with the finals, I don't know what the external criteria are for the final, I'm assuming that the pitches all meet the demands, so presume it's more about hotels, press access, airports, etc. for the alickadoos and the fans. I can't see no reason why the final can't be held in Cardiff (I'm assuming the "facilities" rule out Newport,Swansea and Scarlets grounds), Edinburgh, Glasgow, Milan or Rome. Also no reason not to play it in a suitable neutral city - be good a weekend away to have it in Holland, Belgium or Germany ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

The finalshould be hosted by the team heading the log at end of season

It used to be that, but when it looked as though an Irish team were not going top top the pile they changed it.

I doubtbthat. Irish teams topped the league 9 of the last 10 times before it split into conferences.

Irish Londoner wrote: I can't see no reason why the final can't be held in Cardiff

I think it was because there were no 5 star hotels within 2 miles of the stadium. Or two 5 star hotels, or some nonsense along those lines, and the MS was too big was another thing I heard.

Somebody posted the criteria on here after they went to a fans forum with the Ospreys COE and coaches at the Lyberty Stadium, might have been wayne, I am still in contact with him so I will ask him.

profitius wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

The finalshould be hosted by the team heading the log at end of season

It used to be that, but when it looked as though an Irish team were not going top top the pile they changed it.

I doubtbthat. Irish teams topped the league 9 of the last 10 times before it split into conferences.

Not at the time the decision was made, Ospreys were way out infront when the decision was made, but they did fade away towards the end of the season. I am sure there was an article on here about it as well.

It was the season where the Kingspan stadium held it for the first time.

Are you lying again LD? Hard to tell now as you won't retract or apologise when you're proven completely incorrect.

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:what do the Welsh fans want to happen

From my point, I would like the following:-

1. better officials - no homers - more neutral
2. never put it on an obscure channel that nobody as ever heard of again
3. spread the finals about more equally

That'll do me for now.

The finalshould be hosted by the team heading the log at end of season

It used to be that, but when it looked as though an Irish team were not going top top the pile they changed it.

I doubtbthat. Irish teams topped the league 9 of the last 10 times before it split into conferences.

Not at the time the decision was made, Ospreys were way out infront when the decision was made, but they did fade away towards the end of the season. I am sure there was an article on here about it as well.

It was the season where the Kingspan stadium held it for the first time.

So Martin Anyai and the various unions involved changed the criteria for hosting the final because the Ospreys were leading for a few weeks... That seems plausible

When a mod answers the complaint for LD being called out on his lies please review from the top of page 14 his accusation that I made stuff up, the reply proving I didn't and his complete denial. Don't mind you removing my posts about him lying but he really should just hold his hands up. Mistakes are made when posting but his appears to be deliberate as his lie is still up. Sorry for the bother of having to run through this.