Ireland vs England

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd set up a neutral venue.

Some team news is that Ryan and Ringrose have been ruled out for the home team.

No sign as yet of Underhill so Wilson on for another start unless Jones gets brave and picks Martin from the off. May actually be tempted as POM is back available.

Not sure Eddie didn’t want to win the tournament, but agree it seems his top priority was to get his core guys game time in the white jersey.

If the Lions happen, then many of his core won’t suit up for England until the Autumn. And if the Lions don’t happen, I think it would make no sense to bring those core guys to play US or Canada. Score lines would be huge and no real value added. This tour is perfect for the fringe or next gen players.

That's as decent as we could hope for. Conan at 8 in an attempt to counter the ball carrying of big Billy. POM not dropping straight into the 1st XV is the right call, he'll bring some manic aggression in the 2nd half. I'd like to have had Baird starting leaving Beirne in the back row but his time will come.
I think England will win, I hope they don't but Ireland haven't exactly fired on all cylinders yet this year. Is Saturday the day they will? Can't see it. Finger crossed for a really good hammer and tongs game whoever wins.

C'Mon Ireland !!!

Decent team. Conan has been slowly getting back to his best and this will be a big game for him.

I didn't know Connors was injured. Might as well have put POM to 7 as VDF doesn't offer much.

Glad to see Stockdale back. He makes mistakes but is a better attacker than Lowe.

A little concerned about Henshaw, who looks on cracking form, vs Daly, but outside that I am not sure what to make of either team.

Iam not very happy with Daily playing in the centre to be honest. Would rather he be at full back. or replacement on the bench.

lostinwales wrote:A little concerned about Henshaw, who looks on cracking form, vs Daly, but outside that I am not sure what to make of either team.

I think it depends which Daly we get. Also, how much ball he actually sees (assuming he catches it). Against France, England were chasing the game and had decent possession and territory, so I think Daly was free to create and play. In a more structured game against a more structured opponent his play might be more constrained.

And Henshaw always concerns me. Terrific player.

I've spent the entire tournament being concerned

Glad to see Stockdale back. Murray and VDF starting. Connors will be a loss though.

Think this could be a close game. Hopefully Ireland will win, have a feeling England will edge it.

lostinwales wrote:A little concerned about Henshaw, who looks on cracking form, vs Daly, but outside that I am not sure what to make of either team.

I feel exactly the same. And we still might not know after the game is over.

hugehandoff wrote:I have always thought that Daly's best position could be 13, but England have continued to shoehorn him into wing or fullback purely because he has great skills. The challenge is of course that he has not played there for some time and defensively how will he go? Slade is a great defender so I guess a lot depends on how we play the game? Kick it away and allow Ireland to run back and things could be tricky, but if we get on the front foot then Daly could be very handy at putting the back 3 into space.

Agreed it's a good position for his skills. A lot gets made about players before games, a lot of scrutiny, but then often the don't play a major part in the gme and do just fine. Daly is one of those players, he has the skillset to just go by doing his job, or he could be electric and score or set up a try on his own.

Mr Bounce wrote:Don't think this will do much for Lawrence's and Odogwu's confidence. Daly was good in attack last week but his defence has been a revolving door this season. I think this is a mistake from Eddie.

That's a very big claim to call it a mistake.

miltonkeynesengland wrote:Bet Franco Smith is on the phone to Paolo seeing if he'd like a game this weekend.

Paulo, do you fancy turning down £15,000 to sit in the Twickenham stands at the weekend to come and play for the team being threatened with relegation from the six nations?

When you put it like that...

"There's a story around the game," Jones told BBC Sport. "You guys fill players' heads full of poison."
Jones was referring to the praise his England team earned for the way they played against France, in contrast to earlier performances in the tournament.
He added: "We're trying to take the poison out of it."
Jones believes the match in Dublin could be more attritional than the free-flowing win against France.
"We know what the game is going to be like, we've got an idea," he continued.
"But sometimes when all the narrative is about 'fantastic, free-flowing, this is how we want to play all the time' - that seeps into players' heads." - from the bbc

Back to normal for Jones, with his dig at the media ahead of the game as a look at me and not Daly's defence.
To the quotes though the criticism was mainly in my eyes directed towards the execution of kicks and not playing what was in front of you. Some of the best games are arm wrestles and loads of kicking. What isn't is ignoring momentum and kicking the leather off the ball badly vs Scotland. Hell, even in their best game of the tournament their best moments were launching the ball brilliantly down the field and cranking the pressure on England.

Further quote from jones on daly: He’s had to dig down deep into himself and find the best of himself as it’s been a tough Six Nations for Elliot. I think he’s coming back into his best form and he’s got a great opportunity in his preferred position.”

No 7&1/2 wrote:Further quote from jones on daly: He’s had to dig down deep into himself and find the best of himself as it’s been a tough Six Nations for Elliot. I think he’s coming back into his best form and he’s got a great opportunity in his preferred position.”

Always thought so. He came up, I believe, at 13 and I always thought he was moved due to his running and playmaking ability. But still a 13.

Now the question is whether and how much he sees the ball. And, if so, whether he is allowed to play or just be another kicking option.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Further quote from jones on daly: He’s had to dig down deep into himself and find the best of himself as it’s been a tough Six Nations for Elliot. I think he’s coming back into his best form and he’s got a great opportunity in his preferred position.”

Always thought so.  He came up, I believe, at 13 and I always thought he was moved due to his running and playmaking ability.  But still a 13.  

Now the question is whether and how much he sees the ball.  And, if so, whether he is allowed to play or just be another kicking option.  

Very true. Lawrence was a bystander at 13 in the Scotland game, but we do seem to have our attacking mojo back now.

The way his passing has been going kicking may be the best option.

Always worth remembering that Daly is a very talented player. Sometimes versatility can be a curse as well as a blessing. In his case it has meant we end up talking about the things he does wrong when technically he's playing out of position.

I suppose its one of the things that makes the game so interesting. Are we going to see Daly fumble passes and fail to tackle Henshaw, or are we going to see him cause chaos in the Irish defence. Outside of Farrell that is a very quick back division.

Hopefully his good showing last week when he came on will give him and team confidence. The players and coaches may say they ignore media etc but he knows he's been poor until then and surely he knows it's been mentioned!
He is quick, good passer, massive boot but will his defence be up to it? Yes he's in favoured position but there'll be some heavy traffic heading his and Farrells way. If they play high pace game and keep ball moving and spread wide to wings he could excel.

IRELAND    v ENGLAND    - 20/03/21 - 16:45

IRE XV

Ireland: Keenan; Earls, Henshaw, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton (capt), Murray; Kilcoyne, Herring, Furlong, Henderson, Beirne, Stander, Van der Flier, Conan.

Replacements: Kelleher, Healy, Porter, Baird, O'Mahony, Gibson-Park, Burns, Larmour.



ENG XV

Malins; Watson, Daly, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Ewels, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Robson, Lawrence, Marchant.

Head to head

Played 137  ENG 80 wins - IRE 49 wins - 8 drawn.


Updated as the OP is a bit lazy.

More than a bit lazy.

Think this game will cost ONE coach his job... big question is which one.

You think the RFU would sack Jones? Why?

No9 wrote:Think this game will cost ONE coach his job... big question is which one.

Jones is not at risk at all...not sure where your getting this from.

Im not sure Farrell is either...though some of his back room staff...Catt etc maybe

Mike Catt. Good bloke, sorry to do this:
https://youtu.be/bfFSD_VJDF8

No9 wrote:Think this game will cost ONE coach his job... big question is which one.

It will cost neither coach his job.
They are both safe for the summer.

Pure hyperbole................

This is a hard game to predict. England have the potential to tear Ireland to shreds but I think Ireland have just gained enough confidence to be a hard team to beat. They're looking much better in attack and Henshaw has been a shining light for them so he's one to watch as a lot of the attack isn't off Sexton anymore it's about giving it to Henshaw and playing from there.

I hope the game is allowed to flow as a pedantic ref could turn this in to an ugly arm wrestle at the lineout/maul/breakdown but if it flows then we could have two physical sides having a good go at one another.

If it were Twickenham I think it's an England win but this could be anything from Ireland by 10 to England by 15.

I'll go England by 8. IRELAND 19-27 ENGLAND.

i think england win this fairly comfortably.

Sarries players have clearly grown into the tournament. And the set piece looks solid.

England by at least 10

I think the way the two teams are playing right now Ireland are favourites.  Englands game plan seems mainly to be kick the ball deep and wait for mistakes.  Ireland are great at the kicking game especially defending it.  Irelands defenses in the midfield is good enough to stop england or to force them deep.  Irelands breakdown work and lineout will be enough to disrupt and steal englands ball.

Its no gimmie but the styles they are bothplaying in is advantage Ireland

The style vs France? Or do you mean the style vs Scotland where Scotland played the same way?

TJ wrote:I think the way the two teams are playing right now Ireland are favourites.  Englands game plan seems mainly to be kick the ball deep and wait for mistakes.  Ireland are great at the kicking game especially defending it.  Irelands defenses in the midfield is good enough to stop england or to force them deep.  Irelands breakdown work and lineout will be enough to disrupt and steal englands ball.

Its no gimmie but the styles they are bothplaying in is advantage Ireland

Didn’t James Ryan makes the line out steals against Scotland & he’s missing?

TJ wrote:I think the way the two teams are playing right now Ireland are favourites.  Englands game plan seems mainly to be kick the ball deep and wait for mistakes.  Ireland are great at the kicking game especially defending it.  Irelands defenses in the midfield is good enough to stop england or to force them deep.  Irelands breakdown work and lineout will be enough to disrupt and steal englands ball.

Its no gimmie but the styles they are bothplaying in is advantage Ireland

There is kicking and there is kicking. England's kicking game was off vs Scotland. They seem to have got the distance and timings thing right vs France where it became a real weapon.

I think England will mix it up and not just rely on the boot, but I would expect when they do that they will force mistakes.

I have seen comments in various places about France going off the boil in the 2nd half last week. They did, but the situation was not just of their own making.

7   1/2 - the style england have been playing for the last couple of years.  Kick the ball at all times and wait for mistakes - mistakes that ireland are the least likely to make

So the same style that has proved extremely effective against Ireland?

Interesting article in The Times this morning basically implying CJ Stander just a mercenary and nothing less and is only leaving to go back to SA as he couldn't get a better deal with the IRFU. Bit harsh but who knows.
He's certainly a brilliant player and no doubt be busting a gut today whatever his motivation.

England kicked well against Scotland. Too many people judge performances based on whether to team wins or loses and make superficial claims about what they see a lot of (kicking, Ben Youngs) based on the result at the final whistle. England kicked well, kicking isn't the problem and it hasn't been for a long time.

The lineout was atrocious against Scotland and Wales. They lost. It was much better against France. They won. If you want to simplify it, there it is, there's England's six nations so far.

Ryan being out means this is big advantage England at the lineout. It's a shame he is missing as we would have a real look at his Lions credentials up against this England side. I don't think Beirne will play as well without Ryan.

mountain man wrote:Interesting article in The Times this morning basically implying CJ Stander just a mercenary and nothing less and is only leaving to go back to SA as he couldn't get a better deal with the IRFU. Bit harsh but who knows.
He's certainly a brilliant player and no doubt be busting a gut today whatever his motivation.

Class player and has served Ireland and munster very well. Let's hope he gets an awful send off.

mountain man wrote:Interesting article in The Times this morning basically implying CJ Stander just a mercenary and nothing less and is only leaving to go back to SA as he couldn't get a better deal with the IRFU. Bit harsh but who knows.
He's certainly a brilliant player and no doubt be busting a gut today whatever his motivation.

All of Europe will have to reckon with becoming mercenaries soon enough when it dawns on us that earning money is what matters in a career and the reality of Europe being in ridiculous debt starts being felt. Rugby exists in a strange outdated version of reality where Europe still runs the world. Who could possibly blame players for getting cold feet once the monetary benefit of overhauling your life to chase the money in Europe starts to disappear?

Stander has done absolutely nothing wrong based on the time he played in. The people to blame are the lazy, feckless, short signed class of managers in the unions who realised they could have far more efficient and productive results for their investment if they devalued the very notion of a national side by throwing money at players in the Pacific and South Africa to create these mercenaries. Who would have thought, a player with no connection to a country until they are a professional asset will bail quicker than someone with an attachment to that location? Duhan van der Merwe had signed a better, higher paying contract as soon as he had his Scotland cap. That's the way it goes, it's the logical decision to make. Once you allow for mercenaries on the basis that it will make your teams better you can't complain when they act that way. It's ridiculous.

This sort of thing shoud be a wake up call for a lot of people about the idea of home, nationality, and how people behave based on their inherent priorities and connections. Stander is a hard nosed professional. Call him a mercenary if you like but he's making the logical decision. Europe's response to the virus has crippled it and rugby doesn't have the money to sustain the wages it was paying. A year of playing rugby without fans probably helped to put things in perspective.

Why stay? He's nearing the end of his career, he'll have one last shot at a Lions tour against his homeland, if not in it, and if you read his carrying statistics for Ireland it's incredible he's still playing anyway given the toll it will have taken on his body. Age is just a number when it comes to rugby, 31 is not old anymore for a number 8. Stander has been incredibly durable given the way he has played. No one should demand more from him. And you can't ignore the fact that these men have a life outside rugby and probably cannot wait to see the back of it when they reach their late 20s given how mentally and physically demanding it has become in the last 10 years.

whatahitson wrote:England kicked well against Scotland. Too many people judge performances based on whether to team wins or loses and make superficial claims about what they see a lot of (kicking, Ben Youngs) based on the result at the final whistle. England kicked well, kicking isn't the problem and it hasn't been for a long time.

The lineout was atrocious against Scotland and Wales. They lost. It was much better against France. They won. If you want to simplify it, there it is, there's England's six nations so far.

Ryan being out means this is big advantage England at the lineout. It's a shame he is missing as we would have a real look at his Lions credentials up against this England side. I don't think Beirne will play as well without Ryan.

You are spot on. Win the set piece, be accurate in your dead ball and you should win the game.
If you want England's 6Ns so far, then Eddie has realised they can no longer bend the set-piece to their advantage.
Against Scotland they soon realised they couldn't delay on the "engage", they couldn't use Itjoe to cross in the line-out and they couldn't live offside or kill the ball. Suddenly Itoje lost lineouts to Gray, he got turned over by Gray and as Pivac alluded to if it wasn't for his "superstar" he would have been yellowed along with a few others. Eddie realised it even further against Wales especially when he saw AWJ's one-on-one performance with Itoje and even more so during the last 15-20 mins of the match when under pressure they gave pen after pen away.
That's why he brought ref's in to the training camp for the France visit, even then I think they got away with murder during the game. Ironically I think it was Farrells best game for about 2 years

I agree with you, Gray had a very good game v Itoje, Ryan had the better of AWJ, Gray v AWJ was 50/50, AWJ was superb v England and finally Ryan v Itoje would have completed the Gray/Itoje/Jones/Ryan round robin Lions assessment

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Interesting article in The Times this morning basically implying CJ Stander just a mercenary and nothing less and is only leaving to go back to SA as he couldn't get a better deal with the IRFU. Bit harsh but who knows.
He's certainly a brilliant player and no doubt be busting a gut today whatever his motivation.

Class player and has served Ireland and munster very well. Let's hope he gets an awful send off.

You are like a smiling assassin

mountain man wrote:Interesting article in The Times this morning basically implying CJ Stander just a mercenary and nothing less and is only leaving to go back to SA as he couldn't get a better deal with the IRFU. Bit harsh but who knows.
He's certainly a brilliant player and no doubt be busting a gut today whatever his motivation.

It's not a good look and does suggest he was nothing more than a mercenary, clearly has no affinity to Ireland.

TJ wrote:I think the way the two teams are playing right now Ireland are favourites.  Englands game plan seems mainly to be kick the ball deep and wait for mistakes.  Ireland are great at the kicking game especially defending it.  Irelands defenses in the midfield is good enough to stop england or to force them deep.  Irelands breakdown work and lineout will be enough to disrupt and steal englands ball.

Its no gimmie but the styles they are bothplaying in is advantage Ireland

That style was purpose built to physically dominate Ireland and has worked well for a couple of years now. Not sure you've watched the recent games between the teams.

whatahitson wrote:

mountain man wrote:Interesting article in The Times this morning basically implying CJ Stander just a mercenary and nothing less and is only leaving to go back to SA as he couldn't get a better deal with the IRFU. Bit harsh but who knows.
He's certainly a brilliant player and no doubt be busting a gut today whatever his motivation.

All of Europe will have to reckon with becoming mercenaries soon enough when it dawns on us that earning money is what matters in a career and the reality of Europe being in ridiculous debt starts being felt. Rugby exists in a strange outdated version of reality where Europe still runs the world. Who could possibly blame players for getting cold feet once the monetary benefit of overhauling your life to chase the money in Europe starts to disappear?

Stander has done absolutely nothing wrong based on the time he played in. The people to blame are the lazy, feckless, short signed class of managers in the unions who realised they could have far more efficient and productive results for their investment if they devalued the very notion of a national side by throwing money at players in the Pacific and South Africa to create these mercenaries. Who would have thought, a player with no connection to a country until they are a professional asset will bail quicker than someone with an attachment to that location? Duhan van der Merwe had signed a better, higher paying contract as soon as he had his Scotland cap. That's the way it goes, it's the logical decision to make. Once you allow for mercenaries on the basis that it will make your teams better you can't complain when they act that way. It's ridiculous.

This sort of thing shoud be a wake up call for a lot of people about the idea of home, nationality, and how people behave based on their inherent priorities and connections. Stander is a hard nosed professional. Call him a mercenary if you like but he's making the logical decision. Europe's response to the virus has crippled it and rugby doesn't have the money to sustain the wages it was paying. A year of playing rugby without fans probably helped to put things in perspective.

Why stay? He's nearing the end of his career, he'll have one last shot at a Lions tour against his homeland, if not in it, and if you read his carrying statistics for Ireland it's incredible he's still playing anyway given the toll it will have taken on his body. Age is just a number when it comes to rugby, 31 is not old anymore for a number 8. Stander has been incredibly durable given the way he has played. No one should demand more from him. And you can't ignore the fact that these men have a life outside rugby and probably cannot wait to see the back of it when they reach their late 20s given how mentally and physically demanding it has become in the last 10 years.

I know we have discussed this on this forum before.  The foreign born and raised players in UK/Ire/France/Italy making the various national teams was due to the Kolpak ruling by the ECJ back in the early 2000s which applies to freedom of movement for work by EU citizens.  The  Cotonou Agreement which came slightly earlier was different but has been interpreted after Kolpak to allow players in Cricket and Rugby (League and Union) from Africa (in Rugby, mostly SA) and the Pacific to come and work in the EU if they were able to obtain work permits (slightly different rules than Kolpak).  Since they cannot be discriminated against and residency rules exist, consequently, once having met those residency requirements, they are legally eligible for selection for clubs and to national teams.  And since every coach is paid for results, he/she will pick the best payers legally available.  

There are huge questions how this will apply in the post-Brexit world for Cricket, Rugby, and other sports since UK is no longer subject to new ECJ rulings, though many are grandfathered.  So a 'mercenary' player was simply following the laws existing, and picked on playing merit.  This will likely change in the not too distant future, but the how and when is unknown at the moment, and frankly, sport residency is low, or should be low, on HM governments agenda at the moment.    

I don't blame the players since they were simply following the laws at the time and doing their best to earn money in their chosen profession.

Yes, don't blame the players, blame the management class who are totally apathetic and/or ideological when it comes to such matters. Rugby could have easily sorted its own house out in the late 90s/early 2000s and made the residency rule a 6-8 year period to allow for some players to represent another country if they moved in their teens (Tuilagi, Hartley) while preventing the project players that Scotland and Ireland in particular have sought out to close the talent gap on the rest of the world.

The answer is mostly economic: better players playing international rugby producing a better product. To hell with anything else.

It's not an easy solution as most of the money in rugby relies on European engagement and will for some time to come. It's not soccer which is truly global. So, if Ireland were getting hammered by 90 points against New Zealand every now and again, it's not going to to be good for the sport and all that comes with it (there is a lot attached to rugby, from development and infrastructure, to the media, to research and sports science). If Fiji end up losing by 70 points though? Well, who cares. The Fijian players can go and play for France and earn 10,000x what they would playing for Fiji, just as Stander earns more for Ireland than he would have done in South Africa.

All this has far bigger (and worse) implications outside of sport of course. Pretending that economic concerns filtered through legislation can compensate or at least be the solution to any other issue is the exact kind of political naivety that led to Brexit. Unsurprisingly, people still quite like the idea of a nation and patriotism meaning something more than just what colour shirt you wear, just as there are lots of people who like the idea of two parent families despite the legal disincentives.

Individuals within the system are not wrong to pursue self interest. Coaches, players...they're obviously not wrong. But when it comes to a collective attitude to residency and qualification it is an agreed upon, mutually beneficial situation where the wealthy and powerful benefit disproportionately, while the poorer and weaker nations suffer (even as individuals within it benefit). While you can argue about the impact making a Fijian villager unbelievably wealthy might have on the future of Fijian rugby, it's hard to argue that international rugby doesn't mean very much when a game between England and Scotland (the same country) is celebrated by one team based on the impact a South African who has lived in Scotland for a smidge over 3 years made.

At some point there has to be a 'wake up call' moment to realise that the legal system alone cannot be the guiding light on these things as they are inevitably shaped by the seemingly invisible hand of political ideology that allows for plausible deniability about the actual role of activism within the system.

Rugby is by no means the hardest hit in all of this but the end product, of international rugby having such ridiculous qualification rules to the point that half the French team could not speak French, is one of the best examples of how bad supposedly apolitical legislation can be when it oversteps the mark by acting on behalf of commerce with the net result being social and cultural engineering.

Put it this way: what better way to discourage any sense of national identity and patriotism by filling the cultural arm of competitiveness, sport, with foreigners? China haven't and won't do it. You're free to ask yourself why.

Anyway, an hour to go until this all kicks off...

If only we were paid by the character on this forum, whatahitson would be cleaning up! Very impressive.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If only we were paid by the character on this forum, whatahitson would be cleaning up! Very impressive.

As George Orwell's less successful brother said, "always use ten words where five will do".

Malins injured.

Daly to full back. Lawrence at 13 and Martin to the bench.

Odogwu overlooked again

I mean the good news is we get a good look at Lawrence and the possibility of Martin getting some time. With marchant already on the bench perhaps him and Odogwu offer the same cover.

Shame for Malins however. It strengthens our midfield but its a step down at full back.

Supposedly Odogwu has a shoulder injury...not sure on that though as I've seen nothing official.

BamBam wrote:Odogwu overlooked again

Maybe hes not up to the level defensively and fitness wise...but he's kept in the squad so they can work on that so he can play in games in the summer and Autumn games...?