Wimbledon 2021

First topic message reminder :

The draw is out for Wimbledon, with defending champ Djoko opening against GB's Jack Draper.

Djoko is, of course, clear favourite and won't have to play Rafa or Thiem who have had to drop out along with, among others, Raonic and Stan the Man.

Federer opens against Mannarino and could play Gasquet in round two and Cameron Norrie in the third round. More importantly, Roger is in the bottom half of the draw and away from Djoko.

Andy Murray, who could have been drawn against any of the top seeds, has got 24th seed Basilashvili which won't be easy but could have been even tougher.

Dan Evans, seeded 22nd, could be up against it. He plays grass-court specialist Feliciano Lopez in the opening round. An intriguing round one match is Kyrgios v Humbert who won in Halle.

No one can be sure how Federer will play. He does not have too difficult a start and may be able to run into some form for the later, harder matches. Berrettini, seeded 7, could be a handful if his Queen's form carries on. Difficult to look beyond Djoko, although Novak could face Anderson in round two.

As mentioned in the previous topic 2019 champ Halep is not fit enough to start. Practically impossible to predict a woman's winner. Gauff could go deep. Kvitova and Kerber, two previous SW19 champs, seem to have run into some grass-court form as does 2017 French champion Ostapenko, who has reached a Wimbledon semi before.

Well if this is Fed's last Wimbledon his record there ain't been too shabby.

Ironically two of the greatest matches he's been involved in were defeats - the 08 final against Rafa and the 2019 final with Djoko.

I was lucky enough to be on Centre Court when he beat Sampras in 2001 - a result that, unusually for sport, took on significance only some time later.

Remarkably he never lost in the 4th round but Hurkacz can be added to a list of second-Wednesday wobbles that includes Berdych, Tsonga and Anderson.

There was the 16-14 finish v Roddick in the 09 final as well as some epic comebacks. I particularly remember a five-set win against Cilic some years back when he was an MP down.

He normally sailed thru his opening match apart from 2010 when unfancied Falla served for the match before Rog won in five.

Memories, memories....

If it’s the end of Federer at Wimbledon it’s a very sad end. As great as Federer is no one has ever beaten Father Time. Federer looked like an old man yesterday.
8 titles aren’t to be sniffed at and his place in history is secure.

Federer for me is the greatest player i've ever seen, not overly interested in the stats in that regard. The fact that he as an aggressive shot maker has racked up 20 grand slams in an era of slowing courts and balls that bounce higher is quite remarkable, in any other era it's not even a debate.

Barty beats Kerber in straight sets to make the final.

Good quality match in which Kerber played well but had fatal dips at key times.

Much, much better from Barty today after she'd looked fairly ordinary in the earlier matches. Good, also, to see a decent semi. The quarter final between Barty and Tom was quite dreadful.

Will be watching the second semi with the sound down due to Sabalenka's shrieking. Twill be a quieter final if Pliskova wins. It will probably be to no avail as I think Barty will win the whole thing now.

Barty looks good for the title.

Pliskova plays an awful game at 5-6 to hand the set to Shrieky Sabalenka. Can't see either of these two making it too difficult for Barty.

Osaka has come out with more media demands. I know this is a touchy subject with some but the more she bangs on about this the more interest there will be in her and her state of mind. (Bit like Meghan and Harry doing more and more media stuff in order to be "left alone")

sirfredperry wrote:Pliskova plays an awful game at 5-6 to hand the set to Shrieky Sabalenka. Can't see either of these two making it too difficult for Barty.

Osaka has come out with more media demands. I know this is a touchy subject with some but the more she bangs on about this the more interest there will be in her and her state of mind. (Bit like Meghan and Harry doing more and more media stuff in order to be "left alone")

It's part of the job at the end of the day, if you can't handle it then someone else will.

SR - Agree. Unfair on the other players if some are allowed a "day off" from the Press and others have to face the music.

In the second semi, Pliskova has upped her game and taken it into a final set. Some good moments but by no means a vintage match (which sums up much of the Championships this year).

sirfredperry wrote:Osaka has come out with more media demands. I know this is a touchy subject with some but the more she bangs on about this the more interest there will be in her and her state of mind. (Bit like Meghan and Harry doing more and more media stuff in order to be "left alone")

The media pushed and promoted her into an icon of activism "to change society for the better" - now she is turning her attention on the media and wants them to change.   I wonder if they will support her in that endeavor.
Examples:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/53936569
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/extra/Dj6EylW1Rb/Sport-and-the-fight-for-change (scroll down to boycotts)

While we ponder the Osaka situation, Pliskova has reached the final.

She played better and better the longer the match went on, returning better and winning most of the long rallies.

She's been a highly-ranked player for ages but hitherto her Slam record has been poor.

I think she'll lose in the final but it could be a good match.

Apparently, it's the first time for 10 years a woman has won a Wimbledon final from a set down.

Several things have been discussed in this thread or in the media such as why Coco Gauff got on the show court more, why people are praising women´s tennis matches even when they are poor, the retirement of a young player with breathing difficulties, and issues surrounding Osaka.

In my view all these issues are potentially tied up nowadays with debates surrounding sexism, racism, cancel culture, political correctness and so on. You can´t have these debates fully without touching on the issues I´ve just mentioned. Doing so is not addressing these debates correctly.

For many years (and still to this day) people have suffered a lot from racism and sexism. Years ago you could casually denigrate women´s tennis, and perhaps women´s tennis wasn´t given the time and space in the media it deserved. I myself a few times criticised a poster on this board (who since left) who only mentioned women´s tennis in the context of criticising it or commenting on players` physical appearance.

Tennis has also been a VERY white sport for the longest time, with black and Asian athletes largely excluded firstly because the sport had less popularity and good players in Asia and African countries. But secondly...there has to be more to it that that e.g. US, Europe you would probably find 10%-20% of the population might consider themselves black, but maybe 5% of tennis players are in those countries. Maybe that´s a problem, maybe it isn´t. So other issues going on there, culture, class maybe...maybe racism a little bit as well??

So perhaps it makes sense to give black and mixed race and other ethnic minority players an additional voice and support, to account for the extra struggles they have gone through to get this far and to allow them to inspire others that need an inspiration to fight against racism at a global level, not just in the West. Or maybe not. Maybe we should be colour blind. Either way it is a valid debate which you can´t really ignore.

Since the me too movement (which in my view was great and will lead to huge net benefits for society overall) and the death of George Floyd, things have changed however. Before then, I felt that the people shouting "political correctness gone mad" tended to be often leaning towards the bigoted side of things (at least in some cases) and I felt that while it was true that some people were getting wrongly accused of sexism and racism at times this was inevitable and necessary collateral damage in order to stop sexism and racism. And that some people focused too much on the small pain and suffering caused by this kind of thing instead of the large pain and suffering caused by racism. In the same way you can´t fight a war with zero civilian deaths, but sometimes a just war has to be fought.

However, by 2021 things are now going too far. Too often we see this cancel culture where people are trying to get someone sacked because of something they tweeted a decade ago as an 18 year old, too often there is a news story where someone is under fire for using a word they genuinely didn´t know some people find offensive. It is becoming genuinely inhibiting to debate, the pursuit of truth, and a civil society. Some of the accusations of sexism and racism are accurate, but are put in the news too much to promote a liberal agenda or because they work as clickbait, not because they are truly newsworthy.

The agenda is all wrong. Look at what the Han Chinese government are doing to the Uighers. That is a thousand times more important but gets the same attention as a tennis player tweeting something that may or may not be slightly racist.

The social justice warriors, the twitter mob, and even to some extent the mainstream left wing media, are a problem at this point in this area. I think we need to carefully fight back a little and bring back a little balance.

I mean, some of this SJW stuff is pretty good. Murray correcting journalists for saying "tennis player" when they mean "male tennis player" is probably OK, and people criticising someone for asking a female tennis player to twirl around on court. But that was 2015, and at that point, we probably needed more SJWs. I think they have just gone a touch too far at this point. No-one is going to ask a female tennis player to twirl around on the court again.

Maybe Gauff got all those showcourt appearances because Wimbledon feels that they need to boost black players because it is such a white sport.  Maybe they gave her all those show court appearances in order to protect themselves against any criticism from earnest Guardian writers and social media trolls demanding to know why the black players aren´t being given the show court. Or maybe it was nothing whatsoever to do with race, maybe she is simply a more entertaining or more popular player, or had more interesting match ups. Who knows? It is kind of taboo to discuss it.

Because after all, someone may reply to this comment and say "actually, they gave her show court x for reason y, why on earth would you think it is about race" and try to subtly imply I am racist. Who has time or energy for that nonsense? But, I think, at this point, we have to risk it because this exaggerated racial politics is starting to become overly influential.

Maybe the tennis commentators are afraid to say that a women`s match was crap incase they then suddenly wake up the next morning and find that someone has found something they said a few years ago that may or may not have been slightly sexist, combined it with something else taken out of context, and it´s now been picked up by the media as a character assassination. It´s a minefield out there at this point. John Mcenroe at this point for instance is probably one slip up away from a campaign to get him sacked.

This may also explain why Osaka isn´t getting much criticism. The mainstream media and social media are largely liberal, so they are actually scared of criticising a mixed race woman (I am not sure if she defines herself this way or not, but even if not the point stands), because from their point of view to do that is a racist thing to do, unless said with great caution. On the other hand, maybe she isn´t really deserving of any criticism. It´s really not that big a deal.

Anyway, we can´t just ignore these issues any more. The cancel culture mob is starting to edge towards the point where they are genuinely stifling free speech. And racism and other -isms remain significant problems as well.

By the way, I suspect that Osaka is a left wing, identity politics, hardcore liberal who sees everything through the lens of race. But that´s just a guess.

HB - Well laid-out comments.

I did hear one female commentator saying she'd rather hear a male commentator covering a women's football match say that the keeper had blundered rather than trying to make excuses for the mistake.

The woman felt it was patronising as if, to say, the goalie didn't stop the shot simply because she was a frail girlie.

I sometimes think, and certainly have done so during this tournament, that the women commentators (Smith, Keovathong) have been similarly patronising in that they have failed to point out poor play during women's matches.

The quarter final between Barty and Tomjlanovic was really dire with both making elementary errors. But you would never have known from the commentary.

But then sport on TV is just one big hype these days. You can't afford to tell the viewers they are watching anything less than the greatest match of all time.

Whisper it softly, but a lot of the England play in the Euros has been...wait for it, a little bit boring. But it's almost blasphemy to say it.

Federer is a case in point, he was rubbish in all four of his matches at various points sometimes for the entirety of the match but very little was said about that instead focusing on his age and past achievements. Respecting a legend of the game is one thing but giving his opponents a free pass for losing however is conning the viewing public. He got to the quarters based almost entirely on reputation, Norrie should have beaten him but he seemed to be playing the name at the other end rather than the reality. They've done the same thing with Serena Williams for years.

Someone once said BBC try to present sport as general entertainment rather than just....sport.

In other words, they try to lure in people who would not normally watch. But this really ought to be only necessary for a HUGE occasion such as England featuring in a World Cup final or Murray in a Wimbledon final.

On those occasions you WILL get maiden great aunts who hardly ever watch tuning in and you can moderate your commentary accordingly.

Sunday's Euros final will be another occasion when it's just about Ok to be a bit OTT and simplistic in the commentary. What is not OK is, as SR says above, hyping the ordinary to viewers well aware of the standard of the fare they're watching.

On the BBC website in their European News Section - pages and pages of England vs Denmark.  I wish they left the sport in the sports news sections.   And the headlined images of fans - young women.  Only when they are severely criticizing football fans will you generally see headlined images of (white) male football fans.  Not like they are sending out subliminal messages.

Semis coming up. Just a question whether it's straight sets for Djoko or if Denis S can get a set.

Any diffidence or low-keyness shown by Novak in earlier rounds of Slams invariably disappears in semis and finals. Just hope it's not too one-sided.

Hurkacz-Berrettini is difficult to call. The Italian struggled a bit in his last match with Felix AA but may have got his iffy match out of the way.

Hubert was terrific against Fed but beating one of the big boys in a Slam is sometimes emotionally and mentally draining. Can he follow it up with another big performance against the in-form-on-grass Italian?

A lot at stake for these two. They may never get a better chance to be in a Wimbledon final.

The key could be Berrettini's BH. The Pole should concentrate on it.

sirfredperry wrote:Osaka has come out with more media demands.

"Believe it or not, I am naturally introverted and do not court the spotlight" - says a woman who poses for magazine covers, posts on Instagram to advertise her sponsored brands, does talk shows, advertises social justice causes and is about to release a Netflix documentary about her day-to-day life.

"I purposefully chose brand partners that are liberal, empathetic and progressive" - like Nike?!

"In any other line of work, you would be forgiven for taking a personal day here and there, so long as it’s not habitual" - oh dear.

She's a sheltered, entitled, immature person who is being appallingly advised by her PR team and is doing herself no favours.

Gauff is 6 years younger than Osaka, but you wouldn't know it as they're worlds apart in terms of emotional intelligence and maturity.

I have been impressed by Shapovalov (age 22) and Hurkcaz (age 24) this tournament.  I think Djokovic is going to have to perform at a very high level to overcome Shapovalov.  There comes a time when youthful energy and drive will overcome the player that is gradually losing their physical attributes and having to rely more on their experience and court craft.

Final say on the subject of Osaka and the media.  Look how the global media has elevated Greta Thunberg - someone who has zero research experience nor scientific knowledge of climate. All she has done is express her fears of what she has seen broadcast to her by the media and activists.  The elevation of Greta Thunberg over climate scientists is an example of how the media (and opportunistic politicians) reduce complex issues into misleading emotion.

Shapovalov has had a very impressive run. He could make life a little tricky for Djokovic today …. but not so tricky (I think) as to pose a major obstacle.

Hurkacz v Berretini is a tougher call. Taking out Medvedev and then Federer (or at least a Federer imposter, spraying U/E’s around like a Sunday club player) gives all the confidence you would want ; but the Italian is still a slight favourite for me. Could very well go the distance - and has all the ingredients of a thriller IF they both perform at their best.

Berrettini breaks an under-par Hurkacz twice to take first set 6-3.

Not very impressive from the Pole while the Italian doesn't strike me as anyone who's likely to worry Djoko too much.

Pretty poor fare so far. Let's hope it picks up.

NNB - Your comment on Djoko's required level v Denis. I reckon Djoko WILL reach a high level. Can't remember the last time he played poorly at this stage.

SFP - seems a pretty harsh assessment of Berrettini tbh. Two big hitters on grass doesn’t usually produce exciting tennis.

Berrettini slice backhand has derailed Hurkacz

The Fed-Slayer is nowhere to be seen thus far.

Could turn out to be a swift 90-minute SF it things continue this way ………

Wheels coming off. 0-4 to Berrettini second set. (Can Rog have that match back again now?)

sirfredperry wrote:………. (Can Rog have that match back again now?)

Or ….. as Hurkacz will be saying to himself ……”Can I have just a little of my QF magic & inspiration back please” ??

I agree with a lot of what HenmanBill said earlier, though on the Coco Gauff showcourt thing I think it's simply the matter of a young American player being a little overhyped - fantastic talent that she is she hasn't won anything yet. She's hyped and marketed in a way that a young Czech or Ukrainian player will never be.

Hurcakz having a nightmare against Berrettini, fantastic for him to beat Medvedev and Federer back to back but he's not in this match at all.

Berrettini has hardly had to get out of 2nd gear. The Italian reminds me a little of Roddick (big serve, big forehand, weaker backhand, baseball cap wrong way round) and has emerged as the 'best of the rest' on grass, ahead of all the other younger players but still not quite up to Djokovic's level.

Oh dear. Feeling Hurkacz’s pain.

He’s playing so badly that you could (almost) be forgiven for mistaking him for …. er …… Roger Federer

Almost impossible to rate Berrettini on the basis of this match. Hurkacz having a complete 'mare.

The overall standard for the past few years has been dire, when are any of the young guns going to actually step up? All we've got at the moment are a bunch of youngsters waiting for the old guard to retire, Berrettini is a decent player but a Wimbledon finalist he should not be.

HURKACZ WINS A GAME

Soul Requiem wrote:The overall standard for the past few years has been dire, when are any of the young guns going to actually step up? All we've got at the moment are a bunch of youngsters waiting for the old guard to retire, Berrettini is a decent player but a Wimbledon finalist he should not be.

Couldn't agree more, SR. Particularly poor fare at Wimbledon this year. You could blame the pandemic and the lack of grass-court preparation (no SW19 last year, short period after the French) but a lot of the singles both men and women have been somewhat less than sparkling.

Berrettini, for example, has a big serve and a good slice. But he is by no means a great player. His BH is no more than adequate and I'm sure that Djoko will make mincemeat of him in the final.*

* Er, Berrettini hasn't actually, you know, won. (see later posts)

5-5. Full marks to the Pole for at least making something of a fist of it after a nightmare middle period of the match.

Game on as Hurkacz, somehow, does a Lazarus, and wins the first set 7-6.

The one bonus about playing so poorly initially is that you get the Wimbledon crowd behind you for the rest.

The Pole has won the tie-break and may have changed the momentum of this contest.

It went from 3-2 to Hurkacz in the first set to 3-6 0-6 0-1 with Berrettini winning 11 consecutive games. Hurkacz then sorted out his serve and it is now two sets to one in Berrettini's favour.

Not often you see such a turnaround in a match. At one point I couldn't see Hurkacz winning another game.

Must say Berrettini was fairly average in that third set. Did he just expect his opponent to lay down and die?

Pleased for the crowd and the Pole that he's got back into it. It was horrible to see the struggle he had in the middle of the match.

Forza Matteo the history maker!!! First Italian to ever reach Wimbledon final. Only the fourth Italian male to ever reach a major final - all other finals came at Roland Garros. Always thought Berrettini would reach a major final but envisaged it being at New York. We waited 45 years to see another Italian man reach a major final it was worth the wait!

Berrettini was the in-form man coming into the championships and seemed as good a bet as any to emerge from the bottom half of the draw to reach the final.

Thankfully, Hubert recovered from the shocking period when he could hardly win a point.

But it has to be said this was a very poor semi. Yes, they've got big serves but the returning by both players, particularly on second serves, was awful. Some of the ground strokes were totally inadequate.

Can't really see either of these players getting this far at Wimbledon again. But this is a forecast from someone who managed to wrongly predict six of the eight women's fourth-round matches.

Soul Requiem wrote: ………………Berrettini is a decent player but a Wimbledon finalist he should not be.

So who “should be a Wimbledon finalist” ….. ??

Not everyone who makes it through the draw will turn out to be a star player. Berrettini is a Top Ten guy, and those ranked above him all fell by the wayside (or were absent). He did what he needed to do as a contender, and in my book deserves his place.

lags72 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote: ………………Berrettini is a decent player but a Wimbledon finalist he should not be.

So who “should be a Wimbledon finalist” ….. ??

Not everyone who makes it through the draw will turn out to be a star player. Berretinni is a Top Ten guy, and those ranked above him all fell by the wayside (or were absent). He did what he needed to do as a contender, and in my book deserves his place.  

I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that Berrettini doesn't deserve to be in the final, i'm saying the fact he does highlights the dearth of talent around at the moment, who exactly is there to get excited about?

@ SR …. Ok, that’s a perfectly fair response. I do understand.

But I also feel that we can expect too much at times - not just in tennis, but in all professional sport. We’ve had various lengthy periods of very high quality tennis (sometimes ultra-high quality !) involving a number of supremely talented players. It cannot always be like that. The reason why Borg, Connors, Nadal, Federer …. get people so excited is - surely ? - because they are so uncommon.

Denis S an early break up against Djoko.

You feel that Denis has to take the first set to have any chance of victory. Conversely you reckon that Djoko could lose the first two sets and still win (as he did in Paris).

As far as the standard of play is concerned: Yes, we have been spoiled with some excellent encounters in recent years and some of the greatest players of all time.

But you would still expect more quality than we've had at SW19 this year. Berrettini is a very limited player and I agree with SR that it doesn't say a lot for the standard if the Italian can get to the final.

In the semi Hurkacz played for two hours 37 mins and forced just TWO break points. That's simply not good enough.

An awful service game littered with errors hands the break back to Djoko. 5-5.

Shapo does, at time, play like a great big kid. He wants to play his shots with a flourish. Consequently, there are too many UEs.

No name Bertie wrote:Final say on the subject of Osaka and the media.  Look how the global media has elevated Greta Thunberg - someone who has zero research experience nor scientific knowledge of climate. All she has done is express her fears of what she has seen broadcast to her by the media and activists.  The elevation of Greta Thunberg over climate scientists is an example of how the media (and opportunistic politicians) reduce complex issues into misleading emotion.

I don't want to do too much "political" or off topic stuff, especially when there are live matches going on.

But I have to disagree that Greta has zero "scientific knowledge of climate". It is apparent from her social media, interviews, speeches etc that she has a deep understanding of climate change, the related science and relevant issues.

Yes she is just repeating the scientific consensus rather than doing her own research, but she is doing so as the figurehead or even leader of a large and just movement. I do think we need to see more climate scientists in the media, but not less Greta.

Greta is an special case because she is an 18-year old correctly reading and understanding the situation better than almost all adults because her level of intelligence and maturity and wisdom is off the charts high compared to what would be normally expected from an 18 year old.

However, this is unusual. Osaka's case is different. She is a 23 year with I would guess the average wisdom of a 23 year old (so not a lot) and like most 23 year olds (myself included at that age) probably doesn't realize that (e.g.) 40 year olds are miles wiser than 23 year olds.

I think you are all being to hard on her though. I don't think she has done a lot wrong at all and a harsh level of criticism can be damaging to people.

Yeah, but what's Greta Thunberg's backhand like?

Back at Wimbledon, Djoko , almost inevitably after that horror service game from Denis, has taken the first set on a tiebreak.

Likely to be around 6-4, 6-2 from now on as Novak heads for another GS.

@ sfp - I think you’re overly-harsh on Berrettini.

I haven’t heard any former top guys now involved in commentary describe Berrettini as ‘very limited’ …. or anything approximating to that. In fact, he’s had a lot of praise for gradually becoming a serious contender over the last couple of years.

Now I’m conscious that players are not always the ideal judge of their peers ….. but in this case I’m very much inclined to go with their perspective. I think he’s good and will continue to move up the rankings

Lags72. I probably have been a bit unfair to Berrettini. He's adapted well to the grass, his slice is good, his serving is tremendous.

But he still strikes me as a guy in the Isner/Anderson bracket. He's never going to be top 5 - not with such a poor BH. Of course just getting into the top 10 is a fantastic achievement. Of all the guys in the entire world there are just eight or nine people who can play tennis better than you.

But I would have hoped from a Wimbledon finalist a guy who can make a few more returns. Also, to me he also seems a step slow moving along the baseline.

Djoko now two sets up.