European games round 4

I guess...

Anyway thanks to the BBC tables I will summarize below

Friday 21/1/22 all 20:00
Championship
Harlequins v  Castres

Challenge
Lyon v Benetton
Edinburgh v Brive

Saturday 22/1/22
Championship
Bath v Leinster 13:00
Ulster v ASM Clermont Auvergne 17:30
Glasgow Warriors v La Rochelle 20:00
Toulouse v Cardiff Rugby 13:00  Guess what... Toulouse defeated by the bug 28-0 win for Cardiff
Leicester Tigers v Bordeaux Bègles 15:15  And another one bites the dust. Covid at Bordeaux and Leicester win 28-0
Scarlets v Bristol  17:30

Challenge
Zebre v Worcester Warriors 15:15
Toulon v Newcastle Falcons 20:00  Covid at Falcons
Gloucester v Perpignan 17:30

Sunday 23/1/22
Championship
Sale v Ospreys 13:00
Racing 92 v Northampton Saints 15:15 And another one has gone - Racing with the 28-0 win
Montpellier v Exeter Chiefs 17:30
Stade Francais v Connacht 13:00
Munster v Wasps 15:15

Challenge
Saracens v London Irish 15:15

Some garbaage time matches this weekend.  For instance, considering how Montpellier cavitated against Leinster last weekend, what will they do against Exeter?   .  
And speaking about , what sort of dynamic Rugby will we see from Bath?  Or Scarlets, Or Castres, or, or, or.

On the other hand, which games do you think are going to be good?  Or is this a good weekend to do weird and unusual things such as talking to what's her name?  I think she's my wife or something.

I’ll be honest, there wasn’t a game I particularly thought I would watch either. Not expecting much from the three Welsh teams, although Cardiff might get a 28-0 so are probably the best chance.

I’m away thankfully, but if there was something big on I would probably watch. This year has made me lose a bit of interest with the inconsistency around the postponements etc.

There are a lot of places in the last 16 up for grabs, at least in theory

I see Toulouse are playing. Cardiff have earned a lot of praise for how they’ve played in their games and still have a great chance out there, with a rotated Toulouse.

Falcons game cancelled as we have 9 players with covid apparently.

Just put the U18's in...they'd do better than the current sack of sh1t....

Ioan Lloyd is at 12 for Bristol. That'll be interesting.

Sale Sharks: S Hammersley; T Roebuck, R du Preez, R Janse van Rensburg, A Reed; AJ MacGinty, R Quirke; B Rodd, E Ashman, N Schonert, J du Preez, L de Jager, J Ross (capt), B Curry, D du Preez.

Replacements: C Langdon, R Harrison, C Oosthuizen, J du Preez, T Curry, W Cliff, S James, J Metcalf.

Ospreys: D Evans; M Protheroe, M Collins, K Williams, L Morgan; J Thomas, R Morgan-Williams; N Smith, D Lake, T Botha, L Ashley, A Beard (capt), S Cross, H Deaves, E Roots.

Replacements: E Taione, R Jones, R Henry, H Sutton, M Morris, M Aubrey, T Thomas Wheeler, J Hawkins.

Ospreys must be throwing it, a few of their Wales call-ups are not picked. Jeez, look at who Lloyd Ashley will be up against...

Leinster Rugby team to face Bath (Leinster caps in brackets):

15. Hugo Keenan (37)
14. Jordan Larmour (68)
13. Garry Ringrose (93)
12. Robbie Henshaw (59)
11. Jimmy O’Brien (40)
10. Johnny Sexton CAPTAIN (177)
9. Luke McGrath (159)

1. Andrew Porter (84)
2. Rónan Kelleher (32)
3. Michael Ala’alatoa (8)
4. Ross Molony (124)
5. Josh Murphy (51)
6. Caelan Doris (46)
7. Josh van der Flier (105)
8. Jack Conan (109)

Replacements:

16. Dan Sheehan (20)
17. Cian Healy (240)
18. Vakh Abdaladze (15)
19. Ryan Baird (35)
20. Max Deegan (73)
21. Jamison Gibson-Park (108)
22. Ross Byrne (113)
23. Ciarán Frawley (44)

Referee – Andrea Piardi (FIR)


Bath team is at;

https://www.bathrugby.com/news/team-news-bath-rugby-v-leinster-r4-hcc/

Munster: Haley; Conway, Farrell, Scannell, Earls; Healy, Murray; Kilcoyne, Barron, Archer; Kleyn, Beirne; O'Mahony (capt), O'Donoghue, Coombes.

Replacements: Buckley, Loughman, Ryan, F Wycherley, Hodnett, Casey, Crowley, Zebo.

Wasps: Crossdale; Watson, Odogwu, Mills, Bassett; Atkinson, Robson; West, Cruse, Millar-Mills; Stooke, Gaskell; Shields (capt), Young, Carr.

Replacements: Oghre, Martinez, Scholtz, Cardall, Morris, Porter, Miller, Spink

Epic win for Cardiff, 28 nil.

mikey_dragon wrote:Epic win for Cardiff, 28 nil.

Hard fought victory puts them into the next round (for now). Were Toulouse tactical in seeking a 0-28 defeat as the margin cap means Cardiff stay below Toulouse on the table (open to correction)?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Epic win for Cardiff, 28 nil.

Hard fought victory puts them into the next round (for now). Were Toulouse tactical in seeking a 0-28 defeat as the margin cap means Cardiff stay below Toulouse on the table (open to correction)?

Toulouse are kicking off about it and threatening to sue ERC. The French league are having a meeting about how to respond. Sounds like they wanted to play the game, and from what I’ve read it sounded like they had scraped a squad together. So not sure why the game was cancelled.

Ulster: Lowry; Baloucoune, Hume, Curtis, McIlroy; Burns, Doak; O'Sullivan, Herring, Moore, O'Connor, Treadwell; Marcus Rea, Timoney, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Roberts, McGrath, O'Toole, Carter, Jones, Shanahan, Moxham, Gilroy.

Clermont Auvergne: Tiberghien; O'Connor, Barraque, Vili, Raka; Hanrahan, Parra; Falgoux, Beheregaray, Slimani, Jedrasiak, Lavanini; Cancoriet (capt), Dessaigne, van Tonder.

Replacements: Fourcade, Bibi Biwizu, Ojovan, Vahaamina, Lee, Viallard, Lopez, Penaud.

The Oracle wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Epic win for Cardiff, 28 nil.

Hard fought victory puts them into the next round (for now). Were Toulouse tactical in seeking a 0-28 defeat as the margin cap means Cardiff stay below Toulouse on the table (open to correction)?

Toulouse are kicking off about it and threatening to sue ERC. The French league are having a meeting about how to respond. Sounds like they wanted to play the game, and from what I’ve read it sounded like they had scraped a squad together. So not sure why the game was cancelled.

Be awkward if it was played now, seeing as the 28-0 from the first rounds were delcared as still standing.

It can’t be overturned, unless it’s one law for the French and one for others.

Some of us said at the time moving HQ to Switzerland was a bad idea

Tigers Bordeaux off - covid in France

The Oracle wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Epic win for Cardiff, 28 nil.

Hard fought victory puts them into the next round (for now). Were Toulouse tactical in seeking a 0-28 defeat as the margin cap means Cardiff stay below Toulouse on the table (open to correction)?

Toulouse are kicking off about it and threatening to sue ERC. The French league are having a meeting about how to respond. Sounds like they wanted to play the game, and from what I’ve read it sounded like they had scraped a squad together. So not sure why the game was cancelled.

I did wonder why they named a squad, to then subsequently postpone it.

Leinster named a Covid free travelling party and we’re not allowed to play

lostinwales wrote:Tigers Bordeaux off - covid in France

Bit weird that Bordeaux named a team and then a short time later didn't get on the plane and cancelled the game. Must have been some late PCR test results coming through.

Not sure what anyone thought, but I think that last try was just an inch short of the line...

Looked short to me. If you use the defenders boot being on the line as a reference point it definitely looked short. Given on field decision was no try so clear evidence is needed to overturn I'd say Castres can feel hard done by.

Entertaining game though.

Nakosi is some player.

king_carlos wrote:Looked short to me. If you use the defenders boot being on the line as a reference point it definitely looked short. Given on field decision was no try so clear evidence is needed to overturn I'd say Castres can feel hard done by.

Agree. Shame for Castres. Was a fun game to watch.

It looked pretty good to me. You couldn't see the line, but the reaction from players on both sides suggests they all thought it was a try.

Anyway, when you're a Quins fan, pretty much every game is like that

Quins should not have had the penalty. I usually don't like pointing the finger at the officials but they had a stinker tonight. Missed a forward pass that put Quins down that end and gave a pen for a perfectly good steal by Castres. quins certainly lucky

Just saw the clip of Botica throwing the ball away a metre from the line. Some days nothing goes right

Adamson again…

TJ wrote:Quins should not have had the penalty.  I usually don't like pointing the finger at the officials but they had a stinker tonight.  Missed a forward pass that put Quins down that end and gave a pen for a perfectly good steal by Castres.  quins certainly lucky

Castres got away with a lot of offside and sealing off, and no YC for the strig of red zone penalties at the end or the very cynical push and dive on Steele. It cuts both ways.

Think Castre were robbed a bit with a fairly onesided sequence of decisions at the end. Botica really could have made it a non issue if he kicked better though.

Poorfour wrote:It looked pretty good to me. You couldn't see the line, but the reaction from players on both sides suggests they all thought it was a try.

As KC says it was on field decision no try so the TMO has to find clear evidence that it's on the line. He tells Adamson he has seen ball touch the line but unless there was footage not shown on the TV stream that's not true. All angles have the line obscured so you can't tell.

Anyway, a lot of focus on the last couple of minutes, and no mention of how he was generally dire for both sides throughout the match. If Quins got a bit of luck at the end, Castres had their share earlier in the game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:It looked pretty good to me. You couldn't see the line, but the reaction from players on both sides suggests they all thought it was a try.

As KC says it was on field decision no try so the TMO has to find clear evidence that it's on the line. He tells Adamson he has seen ball touch the line but unless there was footage not shown on the TV stream that's not true. All angles have the line obscured so you can't tell.

Watching the replay, I disagree. The angle in live shows pretty clearly that he reached the line, so the question is mostly about whether he drops it. On the other angles the Castres boot starts with the toe on the line but slides forward until it's running diagonally across the line with the heel at the back of the line. Any grounding in line with the foot is going to be touching the line (and remember that the ball is longer than the foot, so it's the front of the ball that matters). The TMO was also very clear that there's no separation and contact with the line.

But there were an endless number of debatable decisions - for instance was the final pass for Castres' try in the YC period forward? It was a lovely play but the offload looked potentially forward in both the live angle nor the one used in the replay. Wasn't reviewed.

Refs, like the players will make mistakes in games. It'll always be the players who decide the match.

mikey_dragon wrote:Adamson again…

And the awful TMO MacNeice to an extent.

Yes, and isn't it Adamson for England Vs Wales? That won't be short of controversy I bet.

South Africa crushed England 43-0, which confirms that the new-look squad must still be regarded as minnows.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:It looked pretty good to me. You couldn't see the line, but the reaction from players on both sides suggests they all thought it was a try.

As KC says it was on field decision no try so the TMO has to find clear evidence that it's on the line. He tells Adamson he has seen ball touch the line but unless there was footage not shown on the TV stream that's not true. All angles have the line obscured so you can't tell.

Watching the replay, I disagree. The angle in live shows pretty clearly that he reached the line, so the question is mostly about whether he drops it. On the other angles the Castres boot starts with the toe on the line but slides forward until it's running diagonally across the line with the heel at the back of the line. Any grounding in line with the foot is going to be touching the line (and remember that the ball is longer than the foot, so it's the front of the ball that matters). The TMO was also very clear that there's no separation and contact with the line.

But there were an endless number of debatable decisions - for instance was the final pass for Castres' try in the YC period forward? It was a lovely play but the offload looked potentially forward in both the live angle nor the one used in the replay. Wasn't reviewed.

Just went back and looked at it again. Still, for me, just an inch short or maybe less. But, it is very close call and I wouldn't really complain either way. Just a fantastic end to a really good match (though would have liked the try to be more definitive).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Refs, like the players will make mistakes in games. It'll always be the players who decide the match.

Well thats obviously not true if as you say refs make mistakes.

Baths pitch is awful, its also too small.

Does anyone know why soooooo many channel 4 matches involve Leinster? Did the IRFU pay/give some form of rights for the games to go to channel 4?

They are a great team to watch but my god Jamie heaslip gives unbiased commentary a wide, wide berth.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Refs, like the players will make mistakes in games. It'll always be the players who decide the match.

Well thats obviously not true if as you say refs make mistakes.

Well it is. I mean there are actually people blaming the ref last night on this thread. The one I watched involved Botica though.

It involved hundreds of decisions and mistakes you don't even notice from the players. It's just easier for people to get in a huff and blame officials.

I know Leinster can be hard for anyone to defend but Bath are making it easy for them at times.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:It looked pretty good to me. You couldn't see the line, but the reaction from players on both sides suggests they all thought it was a try.

As KC says it was on field decision no try so the TMO has to find clear evidence that it's on the line. He tells Adamson he has seen ball touch the line but unless there was footage not shown on the TV stream that's not true. All angles have the line obscured so you can't tell.

Watching the replay, I disagree. The angle in live shows pretty clearly that he reached the line, so the question is mostly about whether he drops it. On the other angles the Castres boot starts with the toe on the line but slides forward until it's running diagonally across the line with the heel at the back of the line. Any grounding in line with the foot is going to be touching the line (and remember that the ball is longer than the foot, so it's the front of the ball that matters). The TMO was also very clear that there's no separation and contact with the line.

But there were an endless number of debatable decisions - for instance was the final pass for Castres' try in the YC period forward? It was a lovely play but the offload looked potentially forward in both the live angle nor the one used in the replay. Wasn't reviewed.

I think he's about there but under the letter of the law says you have to show the ball touching the line or beyond and you can't see that because there's a boot in the way. Had the ref said on field try then no worries but as the ref had said on field no try I think it's poor from the TMO as he's guessed rather finding definitive footage. Well unless he had an angle that wasn't shown on TV.

Rugby Fan wrote:I know Leinster can be hard for anyone to defend but Bath are making it easy for them at times.

Bath are the worst team in the Prem by a distance this season. This result isn't a surprise, particularly because they are missing a host of players.

Just in terms of internationals there's no Obano, Dunn, Falatau, Cipriani, Joseph, Watson, Cockasiga and Roko. Half a team of internationals missing will hamper most teams let alone one with no confidence or momentum.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Refs, like the players will make mistakes in games. It'll always be the players who decide the match.

Well thats obviously not true if as you say refs make mistakes.

Well it is. I mean there are actually people blaming the ref last night on this thread. The one I watched involved Botica though.

It involved hundreds of decisions and mistakes you don't even notice from the players. It's just easier for people to get in a huff and blame officials.

Thats fairly airy fairy logic. If you were to say that both players and refs can decide outcomes of games that would make more sense.

Jimmy O'Brien is having a great game.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Refs, like the players will make mistakes in games. It'll always be the players who decide the match.

Well thats obviously not true if as you say refs make mistakes.

Well it is. I mean there are actually people blaming the ref last night on this thread. The one I watched involved Botica though.

It involved hundreds of decisions and mistakes you don't even notice from the players. It's just easier for people to get in a huff and blame officials.

Thats fairly airy fairy logic. If you were to say that both players and refs can decide outcomes of games that would make more sense.

It's just easier to say you're wrong though.

That’s a job done.

Referees absolutely can decide matches, though players do have greater overall influence. We saw that yesterday - the incorrect decision to penalise Castres, followed by the incorrect decision to award a try to Quins, decided the result of the game. Up to then the efforts of the players had made it a 33-29 Castres win, but the referee's incorrect interventions changed the result.

The referee giving an incorrect red card, or failing to give a red card where required, can also decide the outcome of a game because of how devastating a red card can be to the opposition (for example the Lions would have won the second test v South Africa in 2009 if Burger had been correctly sent off in the 1st minute).

A slightly more obscure example would be incorrect interpretations at the scrum - if this happens consistently a team can lose a match undeservedly. This nearly happened during the 2003 WC final and sent the game into ET and nearly cost England a deserved win.